Creator here - haven't had a chance to write up a blog post yet! Stay tuned.
The gist of it is that we intercept the Rust linking phase and then drive `rustc` manually. There's some diffing logic that compares assembly between compiles and then a linking phase where we patch symbols against the running process. Works across macOS, Windows, Linux, iOS, Android, and WASM. On my m4 I can get 130ms compile-patch times, quite wicked stuff.
We handle the hard parts that the traditional dylib-reloading doesn't including TLS, statics, constructors, etc.
I've been posting demos of it to our twitter page (yes twitter, sorry...)
[How] do you track when it's safe to delete the old version of a patched piece of code?
Edit: or, I guess since this doesn't seem to be something intended for use in prod, maybe that's not necessary. You can just bloat the runtime process more or less indefinitely.
I was curious because IIUC Linux kernel livepatches handle this via something related to RCU, which I guess is not possible in this context.
There's a custom `axum::serve` equivalent we built that wraps the router construction in a hot-patchable function. When the patches are loaded, we reset the TCP connections.
It's a little specific to how dioxus uses axum today, but we plan to release an axum-only integration in the future.
awesome. thanks. i will definitely follow the project and hopefully participate. lack of hot reload for the FE folks is the biggest blocker we get from other options.
I would recommend looking into how julia handles code reloading with our builtin infrastructure and the Revise.jl package. Basically, every method to a function and as of v1.12 (currently in beta), every binding and struct definition has a "world-age" associated with it.
Basically, julia is dynamically typed, but inside a function it acts like a statically type language within a fixed world-age. So that means that based on the input types to a function, the compiler is able to know that the method table is not allowed to change, const-global, and types also can't change.
Between world-ages however, anything goes. You can redefine methods, redefine structs, etc. What's especailly nice is that old data doesn't become invalid, it's just living in an old world, and if you get a Foo struct you can know what world it comes from.
We have an invokelatest and invoke_in_world functions for advancing the world-age inside functions, and users creating something like an event loop just wrap their event loop iterations in an `invokelatest` and suddenly everything hot reloads automatically as you change code in your editor.
Very nice. For a long time I wondered who would use hotpatching but working with large Java applications made me appreciate the possibility even if it is not 100% reliable (as it is in Java).
From the docs Subsecond looks almost perfect. The only downside I found is that (if I understood correctly) you have to modify the function call in the source code of every function you want to hotpatch.
It is a bit mitigated in that the change does not cost anything in release builds, but it still is a big thing. Do I want sprinkle my code with call for every function I might potentially have to patch in a debugging session?
Creator here - you only need one `subsecond::call` to hook into the runtime and it doesn't even need to be in your code - it can be inside a dependency.
Currently Dioxus and Bevy have subsecond integration so they get automatic hot-patching without any end-user setup.
We hope to release some general purpose adapters for axum, ratatui, egui, etc.
Could there be general purpose adapters for something like tokio more broadly so that if I have an app that’s not based on a framework I can leverage this?
> For a long time I wondered who would use hotpatching
As someone who used a lot of hotpatching and now can't...
This isn't aimed at production, but ... Hotpatching is essential to update code without losing program state. A lot of people work in http request/response stuff and program state lasts the duration of the request/response; you don't usually need hotpatching for that unless your responses are very long --- there's lots of ways to swap in new code where requests after some time hit the new code and requests that started in old code finish and that's usually what you want.
If you've got something with long requests and you might want to change things during the request, hot patching is needed. If you've got something with long running connections or some other elaborate session, hot patching eliminates a lot of disconnect/reconnect session movement and lets you get everything running on the new version with a lot less hassle; as long as you accept the hassles of hot patching.
Interesting, but the documentation makes it sound like you have to preemptively wrap all the code you think you might want to change in a special wrapper "call" function. If true that makes this a lot less appealing than existing solutions for other languages that can modify any function without special annotations.
You basically need to wrap your program's `tick()` function. Otherwise you might be in the middle of malloc, hot-patch, and your struct's layout and alignment changes, and your program crashes due to undefined behavior.
The goal is that frameworks just bake `subsecond::current` into their `tick()` function and end-users get hot-patching for free.
How would you preempt the running program during malloc? Isn't there a well-defined reload point? Major red flags going up if your program can just change at any random point..
Also, didn't the article say explicitly that struct layout changes aren't supported??
There is a well-defined reload point—it’s the `subsecond::call` wrapper around `tick()`. But the hypothetical design that you seem to have in mind where this doesn’t exist would not have a well-defined reload point, so it would need to be able to preempt your program anywhere.
Layout changes are supported for structs that don’t persist across the well-defined reload point.
This is less worse than it sounds. The stuff I need hot reloading for is less than 5% of the total code base. It is usually stuff that I can't debug (ie: API response). So I am back and forth re-compiling. If I can get hot-reloading for that, that's a 95% time improvement for me. I could live with re-compiling for the rest of the code.
Strong agree here. The 'purity' BS of not modifying the running programs address space appears to come at the cost of significant programmer pain-in-the-ass. Having to hand-hold the library to maintain the indirection table is a hard no for me.
Metaprogramming that maintenance burden seems like it should be relatively straight-forward, if you've written a linker already.
The challenge is that if the program is busy in a spin loop, there's no way to preempt it and modify it. Things like malloc, spin loops, network requests, syscalls etc.
I looked into liveplusplus a lot and their unreal integration also requires a broker to get the most out of it. If you're building a game engine and want to support struct layout and alignment changes, you'll need to do some re-instancing. Hiding a `subsecond::call` deep in the bowels of the host framework hides it from the user and lets the framework handle any complicated state management it needs during hotpatches.
I wouldn't say it's purity - the first version of subsecond actually did do in-process modification - but after playing around with it for a while, I much preferred the light runtime integration. The dioxus integration was about 5 lines of code, so it's quite minimal.
Yeah not sure why someone's first reaction to seeing 150ms Rust hot-patches is to call it BS and a "pain-in-the-ass." Tough crowd.
We could aim lower, or make it entirely automatic. The first prototype was entirely automatic, but I realized that you definitely need to signal to the program to hot-reload.
For code like:
```rust
while true {
let msg = io.poll();
}
```
you're now stuck because the program is hung on a syscall. Doesn't matter if you hot-patch the loop, the program is stuck. My first prototype used the exception tables to unwind the program, but that didn't work on WASM and led to weird issues with cancellation and effects.
Similar issues with one-time initialization code at the beginning of the program. You could just hot-patch from `main` - basically restarting the program - but the whole point of hot-patching is that you can keep as much state around as possible while also changing its behavior.
For most apps, you just need one `subsecond::call()` and it works. The bevy folks wrote a `#[hot]` macro which we might integrate, but I'm also keen for frameworks to just adopt it and/or distribute a simple universal adapter.
I really want rust dylibs to be a reality. A plugin system where a library can implement a specific versioned number of a trait and we can dynamically load in that implementation to get changed behaviour. Right now implementing anything like that requires a lot of unsafe which I'm not comfortable with.
I'll have to give this a shot for some of the Rust server work I'm doing. progscrape.com uses a lot of tricks to boot quickly specifically because of the edit-compile-run cycle being slow (mostly deferred loading of indexes, etc).
My current day job @ Gel has me working on a Rust socket frontend for some pretty complex code and that could also be pretty interesting.
It seems to require that you choose a good "cutover" point in your codebase, but TBH that's probably not too hard to pick. The HTTP service handler in a webserver, the socket handlers in non-web serving code, etc.
It does appear to have a limitation where it will only allow the main crate to be hotpatched. That's less than ideal, but I suppose the convenience might justify some code structure changes to allow that.
"In practice, frameworks that implement subsecond patching properly will throw out the old state and thus you should never witness a segfault due to misalignment or size changes. Frameworks are encouraged to aggressively dispose of old state that might cause size and alignment changes."
I don't think "throwing out the old state" is a sensible recommendation. "re-instancing" is called "update/upgrade/downgede of internal state" in OTP:
Perhaps I'm missing something, maybe subsecond is a good tool for toy apps or for a developer workflow. But for anything serious, I'd think that managing layout of structs is a primary concern.
> Subsecond is only enabled when debug_assertions are enabled so you can safely ship your application with Subsecond enabled without worrying about the performance overhead.
debug_assertions is usually only enabled in the development phase (release build default to debug_assertions=false), so yes this is not intended for production workloads
> The gist of it is that we intercept the Rust linking phase and then drive `rustc` manually. There's some diffing logic that compares assembly between compiles and then a linking phase where we patch symbols against the running process
makes it sound like it's actually not super rust specific, just a ton of squinting at assembly dumps. I do wonder if there are some "reproducible builds" traps hiding in this, but maybe it just needs to be selective about what it patches, and that turns out to be the really hard problem
I didn't follow the tick() problem cited elsewhere, but my mental model is that, sure, one should not patch currently executing code without expecting "well that didn't do what I wanted" type shenanigans
I've used this for a toy game I was once working on [1], and it works pretty well for a while, but the problem is that sometimes the OS decides that your dlclose will be a no-op. I haven't ever found a way to force the OS to unload it, sometimes it just keeps it there.
Creator here - haven't had a chance to write up a blog post yet! Stay tuned.
The gist of it is that we intercept the Rust linking phase and then drive `rustc` manually. There's some diffing logic that compares assembly between compiles and then a linking phase where we patch symbols against the running process. Works across macOS, Windows, Linux, iOS, Android, and WASM. On my m4 I can get 130ms compile-patch times, quite wicked stuff.
We handle the hard parts that the traditional dylib-reloading doesn't including TLS, statics, constructors, etc.
I've been posting demos of it to our twitter page (yes twitter, sorry...)
- With bevy: https://x.com/dioxuslabs/status/1924762773734511035
- On iOS: https://x.com/dioxuslabs/status/1920184030173278608
- Frontend + backend (axum): https://x.com/dioxuslabs/status/1913353712552251860
- Ratatui (tui apps): https://x.com/dioxuslabs/status/1899539430173786505
Our unfinished release notes are here:
https://github.com/DioxusLabs/dioxus/releases/tag/v0.7.0-alp...
More details to come!
[How] do you track when it's safe to delete the old version of a patched piece of code?
Edit: or, I guess since this doesn't seem to be something intended for use in prod, maybe that's not necessary. You can just bloat the runtime process more or less indefinitely.
I was curious because IIUC Linux kernel livepatches handle this via something related to RCU, which I guess is not possible in this context.
The axum example looks amazingly useful! Very cool project and idea.
can't access the xitter posts... is the axum part using the whole of dioxus or bare axum + code reloading?
There's a custom `axum::serve` equivalent we built that wraps the router construction in a hot-patchable function. When the patches are loaded, we reset the TCP connections.
It's a little specific to how dioxus uses axum today, but we plan to release an axum-only integration in the future.
awesome. thanks. i will definitely follow the project and hopefully participate. lack of hot reload for the FE folks is the biggest blocker we get from other options.
I would recommend looking into how julia handles code reloading with our builtin infrastructure and the Revise.jl package. Basically, every method to a function and as of v1.12 (currently in beta), every binding and struct definition has a "world-age" associated with it.
Basically, julia is dynamically typed, but inside a function it acts like a statically type language within a fixed world-age. So that means that based on the input types to a function, the compiler is able to know that the method table is not allowed to change, const-global, and types also can't change.
Between world-ages however, anything goes. You can redefine methods, redefine structs, etc. What's especailly nice is that old data doesn't become invalid, it's just living in an old world, and if you get a Foo struct you can know what world it comes from.
We have an invokelatest and invoke_in_world functions for advancing the world-age inside functions, and users creating something like an event loop just wrap their event loop iterations in an `invokelatest` and suddenly everything hot reloads automatically as you change code in your editor.
This sounds cool from a language-design perspective, but impossible to use a design like this in Rust. Unless I've misunderstood how it works?
Very nice. For a long time I wondered who would use hotpatching but working with large Java applications made me appreciate the possibility even if it is not 100% reliable (as it is in Java).
From the docs Subsecond looks almost perfect. The only downside I found is that (if I understood correctly) you have to modify the function call in the source code of every function you want to hotpatch.
It is a bit mitigated in that the change does not cost anything in release builds, but it still is a big thing. Do I want sprinkle my code with call for every function I might potentially have to patch in a debugging session?
Creator here - you only need one `subsecond::call` to hook into the runtime and it doesn't even need to be in your code - it can be inside a dependency.
Currently Dioxus and Bevy have subsecond integration so they get automatic hot-patching without any end-user setup.
We hope to release some general purpose adapters for axum, ratatui, egui, etc.
Could there be general purpose adapters for something like tokio more broadly so that if I have an app that’s not based on a framework I can leverage this?
Amazing! Looking forward to the egui adapter
Very nice! Thanks.
> For a long time I wondered who would use hotpatching
As someone who used a lot of hotpatching and now can't...
This isn't aimed at production, but ... Hotpatching is essential to update code without losing program state. A lot of people work in http request/response stuff and program state lasts the duration of the request/response; you don't usually need hotpatching for that unless your responses are very long --- there's lots of ways to swap in new code where requests after some time hit the new code and requests that started in old code finish and that's usually what you want.
If you've got something with long requests and you might want to change things during the request, hot patching is needed. If you've got something with long running connections or some other elaborate session, hot patching eliminates a lot of disconnect/reconnect session movement and lets you get everything running on the new version with a lot less hassle; as long as you accept the hassles of hot patching.
Interesting, but the documentation makes it sound like you have to preemptively wrap all the code you think you might want to change in a special wrapper "call" function. If true that makes this a lot less appealing than existing solutions for other languages that can modify any function without special annotations.
You basically need to wrap your program's `tick()` function. Otherwise you might be in the middle of malloc, hot-patch, and your struct's layout and alignment changes, and your program crashes due to undefined behavior.
The goal is that frameworks just bake `subsecond::current` into their `tick()` function and end-users get hot-patching for free.
How would you preempt the running program during malloc? Isn't there a well-defined reload point? Major red flags going up if your program can just change at any random point..
Also, didn't the article say explicitly that struct layout changes aren't supported??
There is a well-defined reload point—it’s the `subsecond::call` wrapper around `tick()`. But the hypothetical design that you seem to have in mind where this doesn’t exist would not have a well-defined reload point, so it would need to be able to preempt your program anywhere.
Layout changes are supported for structs that don’t persist across the well-defined reload point.
This is less worse than it sounds. The stuff I need hot reloading for is less than 5% of the total code base. It is usually stuff that I can't debug (ie: API response). So I am back and forth re-compiling. If I can get hot-reloading for that, that's a 95% time improvement for me. I could live with re-compiling for the rest of the code.
Strong agree here. The 'purity' BS of not modifying the running programs address space appears to come at the cost of significant programmer pain-in-the-ass. Having to hand-hold the library to maintain the indirection table is a hard no for me.
Metaprogramming that maintenance burden seems like it should be relatively straight-forward, if you've written a linker already.
The challenge is that if the program is busy in a spin loop, there's no way to preempt it and modify it. Things like malloc, spin loops, network requests, syscalls etc.
I looked into liveplusplus a lot and their unreal integration also requires a broker to get the most out of it. If you're building a game engine and want to support struct layout and alignment changes, you'll need to do some re-instancing. Hiding a `subsecond::call` deep in the bowels of the host framework hides it from the user and lets the framework handle any complicated state management it needs during hotpatches.
I wouldn't say it's purity - the first version of subsecond actually did do in-process modification - but after playing around with it for a while, I much preferred the light runtime integration. The dioxus integration was about 5 lines of code, so it's quite minimal.
FWIW I think the project is quite cool even if you “only” manage to roll out the subsecond integration into popular ecosystem runtimes.
Have you considered aiming at lower level dependencies that are even more ubiquitous? Like libc functions?
Yeah not sure why someone's first reaction to seeing 150ms Rust hot-patches is to call it BS and a "pain-in-the-ass." Tough crowd.
We could aim lower, or make it entirely automatic. The first prototype was entirely automatic, but I realized that you definitely need to signal to the program to hot-reload.
For code like:
```rust
while true {
}```
you're now stuck because the program is hung on a syscall. Doesn't matter if you hot-patch the loop, the program is stuck. My first prototype used the exception tables to unwind the program, but that didn't work on WASM and led to weird issues with cancellation and effects.
Similar issues with one-time initialization code at the beginning of the program. You could just hot-patch from `main` - basically restarting the program - but the whole point of hot-patching is that you can keep as much state around as possible while also changing its behavior.
For most apps, you just need one `subsecond::call()` and it works. The bevy folks wrote a `#[hot]` macro which we might integrate, but I'm also keen for frameworks to just adopt it and/or distribute a simple universal adapter.
Ha yeah tough crowd indeed.
That’s fair that you only really need one call and so trying for ubiquitous interception is probably overkill.
Anyways I am quite excited to have a use case to try it out!
I really want rust dylibs to be a reality. A plugin system where a library can implement a specific versioned number of a trait and we can dynamically load in that implementation to get changed behaviour. Right now implementing anything like that requires a lot of unsafe which I'm not comfortable with.
Do stabby and abi_stable not work for your use case?
I'll have to give this a shot for some of the Rust server work I'm doing. progscrape.com uses a lot of tricks to boot quickly specifically because of the edit-compile-run cycle being slow (mostly deferred loading of indexes, etc).
My current day job @ Gel has me working on a Rust socket frontend for some pretty complex code and that could also be pretty interesting.
It seems to require that you choose a good "cutover" point in your codebase, but TBH that's probably not too hard to pick. The HTTP service handler in a webserver, the socket handlers in non-web serving code, etc.
It does appear to have a limitation where it will only allow the main crate to be hotpatched. That's less than ideal, but I suppose the convenience might justify some code structure changes to allow that.
Wonder if the other web frameworks like leptos will adopt subsecond or adopt their own
About structs:
https://docs.rs/subsecond/0.7.0-alpha.1/subsecond/index.html...
I don't think "throwing out the old state" is a sensible recommendation. "re-instancing" is called "update/upgrade/downgede of internal state" in OTP:https://www.erlang.org/docs/24/man/gen_server#Module:code_ch...
Perhaps I'm missing something, maybe subsecond is a good tool for toy apps or for a developer workflow. But for anything serious, I'd think that managing layout of structs is a primary concern.
It’s a developer tool to speed up rust iteration, not a production tool like erlang.
That being said, bevy is using bevy-reflect to implement proper struct hot-reloading between hot-patches.
> Subsecond is only enabled when debug_assertions are enabled so you can safely ship your application with Subsecond enabled without worrying about the performance overhead.
debug_assertions is usually only enabled in the development phase (release build default to debug_assertions=false), so yes this is not intended for production workloads
Can we have the same for Go, pretty please?
> The gist of it is that we intercept the Rust linking phase and then drive `rustc` manually. There's some diffing logic that compares assembly between compiles and then a linking phase where we patch symbols against the running process
makes it sound like it's actually not super rust specific, just a ton of squinting at assembly dumps. I do wonder if there are some "reproducible builds" traps hiding in this, but maybe it just needs to be selective about what it patches, and that turns out to be the really hard problem
I didn't follow the tick() problem cited elsewhere, but my mental model is that, sure, one should not patch currently executing code without expecting "well that didn't do what I wanted" type shenanigans
This is great, I wonder if it was inspired by Erlang/OTP hot code reloading.
Neat but I would prefer simply using a dylib for the part of my code that I want to be reloadable.
I've used this for a toy game I was once working on [1], and it works pretty well for a while, but the problem is that sometimes the OS decides that your dlclose will be a no-op. I haven't ever found a way to force the OS to unload it, sometimes it just keeps it there.
[1] https://github.com/andreivasiliu/demimud/tree/master/netcore