I bought the first AMD FrameWork 13 at launch. It just works and I’d buy it again.
To me their software story is compelling. To use the wording of the article, I like that I can be a weirdo running Linux on a laptop and not be a fringe use case. I had no interest in either of their supported distros but their support forums had the necessary hints needed to get a different distro up and running (plugging in newer firmware from the Linux kernel git).
I like that they’ve given some support to the FreeBSD community and I’d like to run that on a future FrameWork.
The really special thing about Frameworks is that you can quickly buy and replace basically any part, not just the usual RAM and SSD -- case in point, when I managed to damage my FW13's keyboard such that it was no longer usable, I could just... go straight to Framework's website and buy a new one for $40. And, I even had the option of a slightly improved one, that shed the Windows key and lacked the god-awful copilot key.
This approach even allows the manufacturer to correct design flaws after the fact -- and let's face it, there will always be design flaws. For instance, my FW13 originally came with a very weak hinge for the screen. It was perfectly usable for most daily usage and most people probably wouldn't care, but it meant I couldn't hold it up without the screen tilting back. Well, FW corrected this for those customers who really did care by just selling a new hinge for $24, and so $24 + 10 minutes with a screwdriver later, I had a substantially more refined device! (And to clarify -- there was a defective hinge version in the early batches, and those were replaced free of charge. Mine was a slightly later version that, beyond lacking the level of stiffness I preferred, was not defective.)
Yep, did the same thing too. It's nice that you just need one tool to unscrew, screw things and everything is labelled well that you don't need to go dig to multiple websites on how to do repair/replace parts.
But of all things, replacing keyboard was the most tedious one in framework with so many screws, haha.
Being able to replace the keyboard is especially wonderful because laptops are usually "region-locked". I know people who use relatively unpopular layouts relative to where they live, and it makes it harder to buy and much harder to sell their Macs.
This curse extends to mechanical keyboards as well. There exists all sorts of fancy, beautiful and odd keycap sets... for Americans. Some times for German and French. If I get really lucky, I'll find some with a "Nordic" layout, which is an abomination that combines dk/se/no.
One of the white Macbooks used 50 screws to fasten the keyboard. Once I spilled some juice on it and had to replace it.
Took forever, but at least back then it was not too expensive or difficult.
I was hoping that this is how it would work for System76 -- when I bought the laptop they sold replacement batteries. Five years later I find myself needing a battery and they are unavailable -- not on System76's website, not online, nowhere. My only option is to either replace the laptop or buy a used one and take the battery from that, hoping that it's good.
For the last six months I've just been using a laptop as a mini pc with no battery.
I use laptops since the 90‘. I only ever wanted to get a new battery. Everthing else never had anybsignificant problem, or started to have problems when the machine was already obsolete (5 to 10 years). While I like the Frameworks, I personally don’t see lots of advantages in terms of reparability, ovly eventually in making one with exactly what I need and no more. But then they are a little pricey.
That'll probably be the last time that happens since a lot of places are starting to require parts be made available for some years after the last sale of the device.
I noticed that the battery properties (voltage, etc) were uncommon, as I considered other batteries that would physically fit within the available space.
At the end of the day it's probably worth replacing it with something that probably won't burn my house down.
I almost pulled the trigger on a mini PC over the summer, but said "the laptop still works, you don't really need this" and now it would be 30 or 40% more because of ddr5 and NVMe cost spikes.
A lot of System76 laptops are essentially rebadged versions of Chinese or Taiwanese ODMs. You might have some luck trying to research what model the ODM produces the laptop as and find replacement batteries for that instead of focusing on finding System76 branded batteries.
You can swap out the motherboard, so yeah. Not sure how long they support specific Laptop bodies (or frames) for but I would imagine some of their frames are good for a long minute.
I replaced my last laptop after 10+ years because the battery gave out, the end-of-life hardware was so old it no longer got OS upgrades, and eventually apps stopped working. I like the idea of getting to easily throw new hardware at my machine to keep it going.
(I also tired of Apple shoving bad experiences down my throat (TouchBar, Butterfly keyboards, thin glass screens that crack, USB-C and no USB-A...) so I spec'ed out my Framework with USB-C and USB-A.)
But aside from repairability when stuff breaks, a laptop's hardware slowly becomes obsolete because software is usually written for the new stuff. If you're like me and you keep your laptop for 10 years, that means: in year 1 you have 1 year old hardware, in year 6 you have 6 year old hardware, etc. So your laptop gets worse and worse performance because you can't incrementally upgrade your hardware... you only upgrade in a big bang every 10 years when you buy a new one. Towards the end of its life, you're really struggling to keep the thing above water.
With a Framework, in theory I can upgrade the hardware incrementally over time rather than needing a big bang every 10 years. So instead of having 6 year old hardware at year 6, I'll probably have 2 year old hardware again. So I'll more closely match the industry improvements curve.
Will this work in reality? Will it be expensive to replace all the parts, and will the case be able to cool new CPUs, and will I have to get a new mainboard, etc? Who knows. But I thought it was interesting enough to take a gamble on the laptop. And worst case, it's not a fatal decision... I can just go back to MacBooks...
The problem is that the Framework starts so far behind in performance and battery efficiency of a cheaper Macbook that you aren’t saving money on perf upgrades.
You really do have to buy it for the idea rather than the reality.
> Framework starts so far behind in performance ...
Honest question and not meant to flame anyone. What benchmark are you referring to regarding performance; spec sheets or your tools are not working correctly or working slowly?
Just trying to understand users needs in upgrading. I have some new MacBooks and some old linux laptops. They both equally work just fine for what I need to do, and I am starting to question the need for me to update to a new MacBook M* chipset moving forward.
I don't love this comparison, because I have to use Linux, not Mac. It's not really optional for me, and Asahi simply isn't far enough along to fill the gap.
As a result, the question is more Framework vs. Dell or Lenovo, and that creates a much smaller gap in capability in the 13" form factor.
Find me a new MacBook Air that’s $1000 for 2TB of storage + 32GB of RAM, because that’s what I paid for my Framework 13 brand new (before RAM insanity, but this would still only cost about $1200 today).
A $50 battery pack solved the battery efficiency problem.
So for a little extra weight (external battery + FW13 weighs the same as a MB Pro 14”) I get a lot more actual capability in places that matters than a base MacBook Air.
And I’m not stuck with macOS arbitrarily dropping support for my non-upgradable all-soldered hardware every 10 years.
(I also couldn’t really find a similar Lenovo at anything close to that price/spec with the kind of requirements I have - good keyboard with low flex, nice to haves like the 3:2 aspect ratio, generally a programmer-oriented laptop. My second choice might be a Lenovo ThinkPad X9 Aura Edition. The T-series has unacceptable deck flex).
Replacing a CPU means replacing a motherboard - this is mostly true for desktops too. And by the time you’re ready for a new CPU there is almost certainly a new type of RAM to get.
Current items in my possession that are still in use and use USB-A
* keyboard
* mouse dongle
* webcam
* microphone
* mouse charging cable
* smart watch charging cable
* SATA hard drive dock
* 32GB and 64GB USB memory sticks
Things that use USB-C
* new SD card reader
* new headphones dongle
* smart phone charging cable
Some of the above could maybe be replaced with a USB-C equivalent, but they are still working and I'm still using them. Why waste money and create waste replacing them?
It's funny. I think a lot of more software-y people just don't see the need for a lot of Framework features. I deal with a lot of hardware (as a hobbyist and a hardware engineer) and I've seen every USB standard connector in the last week.
I also own something like three different Framework products (16, 13 and Desktop) and gifted two more (13 and Desktop) to people. Really, apart from the fit issues on 16 spacers and perhaps the speakers, the only really unforgivable issue is the size of the expansion cards (too small for interesting hardware like a good LTE modem).
Hi it's me from the past. I daily drive a VGA screen and a USB-A hub that connects my USB-A mouse and USB-A keyboard. My µSD-card reader uses USB-A. Ethernet adapter (for when I need a second NIC) is also USB-A but it came with an adapter to C so I have a choice there. All USB sticks I've ever seen are A, as well as all external hard drives. My charging cables are predominantly USB-A to micro, and nowadays I also need C for my phone. It's a bit annoying to need that extra C charging cable everywhere after we had already standardized on micro (except for Apple), but at least there's one standard now (xkcd.com/927) after the current devices die
Edit: forgot the printer. I connect it via USB-A on demand. /edit.
My laptop (bought this year) charges via a DC barrel jack, afaik because USB-C doesn't deliver enough power for peak usage. Buying a little HDMI-VGA converter was a lot cheaper than throwing a perfectly good screen away. My keyboard, mouse, and other peripherals also simply still work, seems silly to replace them just to get a C variant when 700-1300€ laptops have 1 or 2 C ports and always 2 A ports (I happen to be up-to-date on that, at least, because I helped someone select a new laptop ereyesterday)
I don't know what I'd need more than one C port for but I'm very happy that there is more than one A port on my laptop. Add in the standard set of 3.5mm jack, HDMI, ethernet, card reader, and charging, and you're already at more ports than even the new Framework 16 can physically fit in its frame, let alone nerd ports like serial or a second ethernet port. I considered buying a double-priced Framework earlier this year for the linux support and upgradeability (I really support their goal and would pay that premium if it were a suitable system) but this is one of the main reasons it just doesn't work for me: I'm actually a power user that regularly uses these connections and more
I have a stash of USB keyboards and mice in my closet, gathered from various sources for free. They're all USB-A because they're like 15 years old. The SD card reader I got somewhere ages ago is USB-A. My Xbox 360 controller is USB-A. So I got a USB-A module. Shrug.
I got a couple of type-A cards for my AMD FW13 and generally keep one loaded in the laptop for connecting to random junk like flash drives, charging cables for all sorts of widgets (like my bike light or head lamp), etc. I get dramatically more use out of the type-C cards. And in the quite-rare cases where I really need all of the type-C ports, I'll just eject the type-A card and plug directly into the chassis without the interposer at all rather than carry an extra type-C with me.
That said, there have been a few things that have been a bit less than deluxe on my FW13:
- The touchpad mechanical click is just not that good. It is too sensitive to exact pressure and touch location and I find holding it down and dragging to be excessively difficult compared to all other touchpads I've ever used.
- The delete key seems to oxidize and needs a bunch of hard mashing to get it to become responsive. No, it's not sticky or dirty.
- The air intake on the bottom is highly prone to getting blocked, mostly by my legs.
- There's no BIOS option to turn down the brightness or disable altogether the charging status LEDs, and I find that when I travel and can't keep the laptop in a separate room that it's bright enough to interrupt sleep. I've taped over them, but the light leakage from other crevices is still sufficient to be at least mildly annoying. The translucent Ethernet adapter card also acts like a lightbulb.
- The laptop ramps its current consumption from type-C very quickly and seems like it overshoots its target a little bit, and so it is the only device I have that trips out the OCP on some of my bricks.
- There's no BIOS option to artificially limit the charging power, and so I often trip the OCP on aircraft if my battery is not fully charged before plugging in. I don't want to carry a secondary small brick just to use on planes.
- The LCD backlight uniformity and color quality are mediocre, but for my use case I just don't really care that much. For me, this is a portable technical productivity machine and not an art studio, so it doesn't matter.
- The LCD backlight intensity curve is pretty bad. I very-frequently want to have a brightness in-between the lowest and second-lowest settings. I would love to get more control at the bottom and less at the top. It feels like it's linear when it should be logarithmic.
- The speakers suck. So does the volume control. I very rarely go above 10% volume and frequently don't have sufficient control resolution at the bottom. Anything above about 14-16% volume causes something to distort and other stuff to rattle. Luckily I mostly don't consume media, so this is rarely a real problem. But it is truly atrocious.
All that said, I'm generally a pretty happy camper. I look forward to continued improvements from the company over the years.
I still do have a few USB-A: Yubikey, mouse receiver, Streamdeck, USB sticks, webcam, old HDD hard drives I use for backups...
I guess I could, but I would rather not upgrade all of those to USB-C and I really tired of having to carry dongles everywhere.
I even like that if I were consistently using HDMI, I could actually just put an HDMI extension card into my laptop and still not need a dongle. It's customizable to my usage at any point in the laptop's life.
Even limiting discussion to "routine consumer use": Mouse and keyboard dongles, USB sticks for copying things off the scanner or 3D printer or whatever. Joysticks and game controllers still live in drawers and come out every once in a while. These things are still Just Not Made in USB-C except in a handful of weird devices.
And even then, I'm not re-buying junk that works. I just swapped for a webcam that has a C cable, and ironically it's being used with an adapter because the integrated hub on the KVM switch is A-only.
Also dev tasks like flashing bootable ChromeOS and linux images pretty regularly, connecting to a Flyswatter JTAG adapter, UART adapters, etc...
USB-A was actually a really great plug and objectively works better for a lot of applications than the tiny C connector.
I don't care about the upgradeability or repairability. I think that people espousing these points need a reality check - other laptops aren't that bad for repairability (I have always had Alienwares, and have had no trouble sourcing and installing parts in laptops even 10+ years old), and piecemeal upgrades really don't make sense in the long term. Framework also seems to have attracted a certain type of activist that I won't get into here (they're very opinionated about the company's donations).
I've ordered a Framework 16, though. Not for any of that crap, but just to be able to customise it. That's what I love. They should really lean in to this.
Once the eco and repairability nonsense has faded - and it will, because it's marketing fluff - you still have a laptop that is extremely versatile from a company that doesn't hate you. It's not bloated with spyware by default, the checkout process isn't full of dark patterns, they support and encourage you to use it how you want to use it.
Lean in. Make more modules. Make better modules. Assist the community more with new and varied modules. It's crazy that eGPU and dual USB modules are primarily driven by amateur forum volunteers rather than being major priorities for Framework's engineers. Design a low-profile mechanical keyboard, I don't care for your excuses. Give us proper touchpad options with buttons. Keyboard modules with scroll wheels and panning for CAD.
These are what makes Framework special. In 3 or 4 years it's going to be thrown on the same pile as all of my other old laptops, never to be upgraded or repaired again. I don't care for that. I just want a laptop customised for my needs over that time, rather than fighting against the antagonistic whims of Dell et al.
I think laptop gamers, and developers that use gaming laptops for work machines are somewhat niche (and I'm in that niche).
Because PC gamers often buy desktops. And console gamers buy consoles while handheld gamers buy handhelds and smartphone gamers...
Then there are other kinds of laptop users... the various Macbook users from the lightweight travel Air to the beefy desktop replacement 16" Macbook Pro, and the Windows business laptop users, and the Linux laptop users.
(I think we'd all do well to remember the variety in computers and computer users...)
So yeah, I've rarely bought anything but a gaming laptop that could easily be upgraded via RAM or SSD, and when I've bought non-upgradeable laptops (a tiny Asus 2-in-1 touchscreen) I found it just wasn't for me and I ended up selling it.
My favorite gaming laptops... Lenovo Legion 5 Pro, Acer Nitro 16. My spouse uses a Legion 5 Pro. My sister uses my 5+ year old Legion 5. They've all been a combination of good or great screen, great keyboard, good hardware, pretty quiet except when cranking up for demanding games, and so far all have been reliable, upgradeable, etc. We don't tend to use them on battery, but I've found that they tend to do 4-5 hours easily for basic usage. I wouldn't expect them to do well at all when pulling 100+ W for gaming.
First, I think you're correct that a used/refurb Thinkpad is a good solution for many people.
For me, what found attractive about the Framework is that I just don't like the idea of replacing my laptops wholesale. I like the little piecemeal upgrades that Framework offers. I like my tech to stay as unchanged as it can. I don't want to adjust to a new keyboard and touchpad and screen and charging situation all at the same time. I prefer the route of doing little upgrades over time, where things only change a little bit, when I'm ready for them to. Maybe next year I will upgrade the screen; maybe the next year I'll drop the USB-A module for something more useful; a couple years after that maybe I'll get a new mainboard; and all through this it's still the same laptop I've known and gotten used to. This is how I manage my desktop, and Framework lets me do the same with a laptop.
It's just a personality thing I think. Framework's piecemeal upgrade story is more attractive to me, but I agree there's other routes for people with other priorities.
> Will I be able to use the same mainboard for a decade?
Maybe, but you can actually just upgrade the mainboard. Framework has already done that cycle a couple of times. And they made sure the mainboard can work without a battery (not exactly a high bar, but it's better than most), so your old mainboard can pop into a small case and get a second life as a NUC
Yeah it's certainly the single most expensive component, but it's still cheaper than a whole new laptop and, more to the point, less waste than a whole new laptop
Or buy an up-specced conventional laptop with a ton more storage and RAM to start with for the same price. Get your upgrades in first at no extra cost.
If you're getting a Framework with the top specs and can't get a competing laptop at higher spec cheaper, I can see the argument that you might benefit from the extra upgradability headroom. However that almost certainly means a mainboard upgrade, and I'd be concerned about the thermals of a current chassis with a hypothetical future mainboard.
In terms of hardware, there shouldn't be too many surprises. People have been doing this with desktop computers for ages, so it's known what it means to maintain and upgrade 10+ years old computers. I have one (desktop) that I'm using regularly, and did a few minor upgrades over the years.
Of course, warranty and support quality is a different question.
I work international (somewhat of a digital nomad) so perhaps I’m an outlier in my usage. I have an M1 MacBook Pro that I bought new at release. I can’t replace the memory or storage. But so far I didn’t need to do that.
In case it breaks, I walk to my nearby electronics store and purchase a new MacBook Pro. With Time Machine restore I am up an running within an hour. The M1 goes onto the pile of stuff to repair later. And this is where the international part plays a role, in nearly any city in the western world I can grab a new MacBook Pro within an hour.
My day rate is significant enough that downtime is expensive. Not working for a week waiting for Framework to send parts is not an option for me. I can get next day delivery for memory and an SSD through Amazon in most of Europe but that is still a day rate wasted.
> In case it breaks, I walk to my nearby electronics store and purchase a new MacBook Pro.
> Not working for a week waiting for Framework to send parts is not an option for me.
You are comparing apples and oranges here. Apple is internationally available because it is 40 years old and very successful. There's no reason why Framework cannot be that successful in 10 years time.
Furthermore, when Framework might become that successful, no need to buy a full new laptop, you can just buy the stuff that failed and move on. And if that does happen, then experience with Framework promises to be much better than experience with Macbook.
This is why I have a solid desktop and then just RDP into it.
The laptop can then be whatever and if it breaks or gets stolen it's not a big deal. I don't need an expensive laptop and all my stuff is on the desktop so nothing to lose.
Does require a somewhat decent internet connection but nothing special.
Sorry! So many questions. That electronics store won't sell RAM and SSD sticks? Which cities have stores that can sell Macbooks but not RAM & SSD? Like why wait for Amazon next day delivery if your SSD or RAM dies? Why would you wait for Framework to ship parts, unless it's the main board. Even then, wouldn't it be much cheaper to just plug in the SSD into an M.2 slot (of any generic new/old laptop) and rsync your way to productivity in pretty much the same time a Time Machine restore would take?
Not just RAM and SSD. Displays can break. Power ports can break. USB-C ports can break. Keyboards can break. PCBs can break. And those take time to ship if you have a Dell, HP, Framework or even an Apple machine. I like being able to walk to a nearby store and grab a new MacBook Pro in case I quickly need a new machine to continue my work. My clients typically hire me for short periods and they need me to work at full capacity for that time period. Waiting a week while Framework ships me a new display is not an option.
A Time Machine restore has never failed me. You are fully operational after the backup is restored. Syncing your data onto an SSD via M2 isn't comparable.
Your initial comment made it seem like, the repairable options are just so incovenient to the point where buying a new machine was the solution. So my questions were mainly around why that would be the case. But, it seems like your requirements are pretty stringent to the point nothing other than a Time Machine backup compatible machine would make sense.
The way all of the backup/sync/restore is so dialed in on MacOS/iOS/iPadOS at this point is pretty hard to beat. You get a performant fat client that you can treat like an interchangeable thin client as the need arises.
Exactly. I have a high-speed USB-C disk connected to my machine and an off-site backup. The first is for accidentally deleted files and to be able to quickly recover. The other is more of an actual backup. My iPhone and MacBook are indeed expendable devices at this point.
All the stores I can get to within a reasonable time period stock ISO keyboards instead of ANSI, and I've never really warmed up to those. So I'm stuck with next-day even for macs.
I'm also a laptop weirdo and I've had a Framework 13 with the Ryzen 7 motherboard since May of 2022. I run Ubuntu (currently 25.10) on it.
Its a good laptop, but not a great laptop. Its very light and compact (very important to me), and its been reliable, at least since the AMD GPU driver issues were resolved. The matte screen is fine, battery life is adequate, and the CPU meets my needs as a hobby developer.
Overall, I'm happy with it and I expect to use it for many years.
Its biggest issues are the touchpad (it's a diving board design, so you have to always click in the bottom 1/3 of the pad) and the quality of the case. The case flexes slightly if the computer is on an uneven surface, or if you are holding it in one hand by the corner while typing/mousing with your other hand, and this can cause the mechanics of the touchpad to jam. I've trained myself to tap instead of click, but that's me adapting to bad hardware.
I wish the case were more solid, even though I know this would add to the expense, size and weight. I expect to eventually replace every part of this laptop except the case, so I would appreciate more durability.
I looked up my purchase using my Framework account to confirm my purchase date, and it lists my mother board as System: Intel® Core™ i7-1260P. Sloppy record keeping like this doesn't inspire confidence.
It is definitely not, and /proc/cpuinfo confirms it:
model name : AMD Ryzen 7 7840U w/ Radeon 780M Graphics
I have been looking to buy a new laptop personally. Framework has a compelling argument. But with only 4 ports on the Framework, I'd likely be switching the ports often. In addition to using USB-C, I often need a USB-A for an external mouse but other times a HDMI port to connect to a display while presenting.
I don't think it's fair to compare Thinkpad X1 Carbon with Framework. The T14 range is a much better comparison. While Lenovo took a few steps back a few years ago the last couple of generations seem to be much better in regard to being repairable. The T14 Gen 5 [0] gets a 9/10 score on ifixit. Parts are easily available globally, while Framework is still somewhat limited in this regard geographically.
That said, it's great we have a choice! If it were not for Framework, I don't think Lenovo would have made an effort to make the Thinkpads repairable again.
In my experience (my partner has a Framework), changing a port is not something easily done without putting the Framework bottom side up. In practice you need to stop whatever you are doing to first sleep the laptop, turn it over, change the port and then get back to what you were doing before. Repeat the process if you want to get the ports back in the original order.
To me, the biggest appeal of the Framework laptop is that I can repair it myself and buy OEM parts directly.
I currently own a Lenovo Legion laptop. Still, a very powerful machine, but the screen now has a spot in the middle with multiple dead pixels, the topcoat on the trackpad is peeling off, and the main body has spots where palms rest. I'd happily buy replacement parts and install them, but I can't.
I don't understand the argument you can buy Lenovo OEM parts pretty easily? Even if something is not available through the pcparts site I ordered a replacement display via support.
Yeah! I am also surprised. I have a lenovo from 2015 that's gotten it's wifi card, power IC, RAM - all replaced at some point for very cheap across multiple cities in India. And all this is on a Ideapad. One of their budget "professional" laptops, not even a Thinkpad.
While I understand what Framework is doing and the repairability aspect, somehow this conversation always seems to make it seem Laptops are similar to Ipads or something. It's not.
I purchased the first generation of FW13 laptops and got burned. The CMOS/RTC battery drains if not plugged in so the laptop never keeps proper time. I don't think I've ever used a gadget in the last few decades that needs setting the correct date & time every time I turn it on.
Granted, it was their first ever shipping product so I gave them a free pass but I thought they would atleast issue a recall or have a repair program where you send in the laptop to get it fixed. Instead they first denied it was even an issue, later on when enough people complained - they started a battery program where they send you a new ML220 coin battery that will also eventually stop working.
I was told buying a new mainboard (12th or 13th gen Intel) would fix it, but I decided to just buy a new ZenBook instead.
The permanent fix involves soldering stuff on the mainboard, which I don't have any prior experience. The RTC substitute module you mention is just the ML220 coin battery that will also eventually stop working.
I don't get Framework. The business offerings of HP, Dell and Lenovo have a lot of replacable parts, and you can easily upgrade the RAM and SSD on many. These laptops already exist for decades. Framework hardly brings anything new into the mix.
Bought a thinkpad L450 10 years ago for about 900 euros. No GPU, which probably increased its lifespan. Replaced its HDD with a SSD.
Apart from thinkpads and maybe framework, I don't think there is any other reliable laptop brand with reasonable prices.
I was talking with my mother about buying jeans pants that would last for a long time, and a 200 euros jeans would have holes on its 6th year or something. Everything is built to last "just long enough".
I was on the market earlier this year snd I really wanted a framework to make sense. But it doesn’t. By my math, I could get two comparable laptops for the price of the framework, and the flexibility to get a second one with newer specs a few years down made it a bad deal for me. But if you aren’t strapped for cash and appreciate the sustainability, then it’s appealing. For me, a slightly greener laptop isn’t a good enough value proposition. Plus I prefer intel for TB support for an egpu.
What were you comparing against? When I bought my framework it didn't really have a price premium to it relatively to comparable laptops. The main compromise was the thicker chassis and fewer options in terms of things like premium displays.
> Plus I prefer intel for TB support for an egpu.
lol you and nobody else prefer Intel in a laptop these days. But FYI framework has TB support on their Intel skus and AMD has USB 4 (aka, thunderbolt 3++)
I didn't want to take any risks wrt the egpu support because with an egpu there's already a whole lot of unknowns, so wanted to play it safe with proper TB support. It's a bit of a niche requirement though, so I get that other people may not care. But aside from that I just wanted a basic cheap and light laptop. I got an Acer for £500 on sale with a 2nd gen intel chip. Despite the hate intel gets, their 2nd gen chips are actually really good in terms of battery life.
If I spec a comparable laptop right now on Framework, it's around £1400, even for 1st gen intel. Plus the Acer came with a lovely OLED screen, which the framework doesn't seem to have, as you mentioned.
> Did I do anything productive or meaningful with it? Absolutely not.
> I could finally watch 480 YouTube videos instead of 360
What’s meaningless about this big upgrade in quality?
So with that and the misconceptions like "You can't change the RAM /SSD" (you can, but for a smaller set of laptops than before), the thesis is rather muddy (unless you literally plan a custom printed snacks tray, but even then other laptops have pluggable side bays, so could also plug in there?)
Oh, I did magnificent things to my old Toughbook CF-17 / CF-m34. (It ended up as a franken-puter with parts of both.)
First: Remove the internal CDPD wireless modem, remove the internal 56k POTS modem/10/100 Ethernet combo card. Wire the TTL-level UART from the CDPD port over to the RJ11 jack so I could now hack on embedded devices using a simple RJ11-to-bare-wires cable.
Second: The modem/ethernet card removal freed up the MiniPCI slot. Obtain a MiniPCI-to-USB2.0 card (4 downstream ports), and desolder the tall headers (it was meant for embedded machines with more internal space). Then verrrry carefully desolder the machine's external USB1.1 port pins from the mobo, and wire them over to one of the USB2.0 host ports. (Ground stayed, but D+/D-/Vbus moved.) Ta-daa, faster external devices.
Third: Carve out some stiffening ribs from under the palm-rest, shuck a USB-Bluetooth adapter, and mount it in there. The palm-rest being plastic means this puts the radio outside the magnesium shell, but still "internal" from an ergonomic perspective. Sneak some wires past the touchpad opening and solder them to the now-freed-up USB1.1 host port on the mobo, since bluetooth doesn't need 480Mbps.
Fourth: Shuck a 2GB USB flash drive and wire it to another internal USB2.0 port, and run EBoostr, a third-party implementation of Readyboost for WinXP, which gave flash-cache functionality for severely RAM-limited machines like mine (192MB mobo max, sadly!). Tuck it up by the RAM, ironically, because there's plenty of room up there.
Fifth: Shuck a USB2.0-GigE adapter (one with separate magnetics and jack, leave the magnetics but remove the jack because it's too tall, also remove the USB port), and wire it to yet a third internal USB2.0 port. Wire the Ethernet side out to the RJ45 jack freed up by the 10/100 card removal. The speed boost from 100Mbps to 480Mbps (GigE bottlenecked by USB2.0) isn't nothing, but the real benefit is that GigE is Auto-MDIX so I never have to carry a crossover cable, and that's worth it all by itself.
Sixth: Shuck a USB-Wifi dongle, and wire it to the fourth and final internal USB2.0 port. Do the world's hairiest coax splice to the CDPD modem's antenna lead, so the 2.4GHz RF now goes out to the 800MHz-tuned antenna mounted on the screen. Split the antenna open and trim the active elements to 1/3 their length, raising the resonant frequency accordingly. Without access to a VNA at the time, this was as good as I could get, and it worked just fine.
At that point, it was pretty much the perfect laptop, except for the brutally-limited RAM, which eventually forced its obsolescence as browsers bloated without bound. I used it heavily during 2006-07, and to this day I still miss that perfect little keyboard.
I’ve never been brave enough to modify my laptops beyond the one time I sprayed a new (hard) topcoat on an Acer Aspire 5520g… which turned it from a flimsy piece of garbage into a slightly less flimsy piece of garbage.
I feel like running a Thinkpad x201 these days would be a lesson in frustration (for the browser bloat you mentioned) but that was my perfect laptop. If I could do a mainboard swap I would continue to use it.
They need to bring trackpoint and WWAN, otherwise they simply are not a competition for Lenovo, as much as I hate it.
I also find their design very boring. I am not asking for a MacBook, but even ThinkPads are way more sexy and you can actually identify with that design. Framework just comes off as another 2015 MacBook Air design knockoff.
I’d like to read from someone who has at least 5 years of experience with Framework. New stuffs are always interesting. But I prefer something that can last for 5 plus years. Framework afaik does not have long term guarantees which is a concern.
Framework as a company is only 5 years old, but they've already done several generations of upgrade parts (including webcam, keyboard, display, mainboards, etc...) and have large availability of repair/replacement parts. So unless their parts are uniquely bad in that they randomly fail after 5 years, it seems pretty clear that they are delivering on the long term ownership goals?
I think that's a reasonable point - is there anyone doing "State of My Framework" reports? It's hard to know how true their claim of timelessness through upgrades and repairs is without that.
I think the Framework model (OTC/commodity parts + mainboard) is neat, but what Beelink and others in the MiniPC space are doing is much more useful and compelling for someone who needs a modern, extensible system.
My work doesn't require a lot of local compute (or repairs), so there's nothing really a Framework offers that I'm not already getting on a 5 year old $150 4GB Chromebook.
I bought the first AMD FrameWork 13 at launch. It just works and I’d buy it again.
To me their software story is compelling. To use the wording of the article, I like that I can be a weirdo running Linux on a laptop and not be a fringe use case. I had no interest in either of their supported distros but their support forums had the necessary hints needed to get a different distro up and running (plugging in newer firmware from the Linux kernel git).
I like that they’ve given some support to the FreeBSD community and I’d like to run that on a future FrameWork.
The really special thing about Frameworks is that you can quickly buy and replace basically any part, not just the usual RAM and SSD -- case in point, when I managed to damage my FW13's keyboard such that it was no longer usable, I could just... go straight to Framework's website and buy a new one for $40. And, I even had the option of a slightly improved one, that shed the Windows key and lacked the god-awful copilot key.
This approach even allows the manufacturer to correct design flaws after the fact -- and let's face it, there will always be design flaws. For instance, my FW13 originally came with a very weak hinge for the screen. It was perfectly usable for most daily usage and most people probably wouldn't care, but it meant I couldn't hold it up without the screen tilting back. Well, FW corrected this for those customers who really did care by just selling a new hinge for $24, and so $24 + 10 minutes with a screwdriver later, I had a substantially more refined device! (And to clarify -- there was a defective hinge version in the early batches, and those were replaced free of charge. Mine was a slightly later version that, beyond lacking the level of stiffness I preferred, was not defective.)
Yep, did the same thing too. It's nice that you just need one tool to unscrew, screw things and everything is labelled well that you don't need to go dig to multiple websites on how to do repair/replace parts. But of all things, replacing keyboard was the most tedious one in framework with so many screws, haha.
Being able to replace the keyboard is especially wonderful because laptops are usually "region-locked". I know people who use relatively unpopular layouts relative to where they live, and it makes it harder to buy and much harder to sell their Macs.
This curse extends to mechanical keyboards as well. There exists all sorts of fancy, beautiful and odd keycap sets... for Americans. Some times for German and French. If I get really lucky, I'll find some with a "Nordic" layout, which is an abomination that combines dk/se/no.
Exactly - imagine if early MacBook Butterfly keyboard users had the option to simply upgrade their keyboard to a fixed version for $40...
[1]https://www.keyboardsettlement.com/
One of the white Macbooks used 50 screws to fasten the keyboard. Once I spilled some juice on it and had to replace it. Took forever, but at least back then it was not too expensive or difficult.
I was hoping that this is how it would work for System76 -- when I bought the laptop they sold replacement batteries. Five years later I find myself needing a battery and they are unavailable -- not on System76's website, not online, nowhere. My only option is to either replace the laptop or buy a used one and take the battery from that, hoping that it's good.
For the last six months I've just been using a laptop as a mini pc with no battery.
I use laptops since the 90‘. I only ever wanted to get a new battery. Everthing else never had anybsignificant problem, or started to have problems when the machine was already obsolete (5 to 10 years). While I like the Frameworks, I personally don’t see lots of advantages in terms of reparability, ovly eventually in making one with exactly what I need and no more. But then they are a little pricey.
FWIW, I have a 5 year old dell XPS whose battery I could both find an replace easily.
That is one of the advantages of the bigger name brands, replacement parts are generally a lot easier to find.
I was in it to support the company and their goals, but the experience was a little souring.
That'll probably be the last time that happens since a lot of places are starting to require parts be made available for some years after the last sale of the device.
I noticed that the battery properties (voltage, etc) were uncommon, as I considered other batteries that would physically fit within the available space.
At the end of the day it's probably worth replacing it with something that probably won't burn my house down.
I almost pulled the trigger on a mini PC over the summer, but said "the laptop still works, you don't really need this" and now it would be 30 or 40% more because of ddr5 and NVMe cost spikes.
It's not a money thing, it's the principal of it.
A lot of System76 laptops are essentially rebadged versions of Chinese or Taiwanese ODMs. You might have some luck trying to research what model the ODM produces the laptop as and find replacement batteries for that instead of focusing on finding System76 branded batteries.
Hope you find your batteries.
Yes, I went down the clevo path as well. No dice, it does not exist.
I found a few which said "in stock" but was refunded each time as the part didn't actually exist.
I assume not just replace, but upgrade, in some cases
You can swap out the motherboard, so yeah. Not sure how long they support specific Laptop bodies (or frames) for but I would imagine some of their frames are good for a long minute.
I thought Framework was worth a gamble.
I replaced my last laptop after 10+ years because the battery gave out, the end-of-life hardware was so old it no longer got OS upgrades, and eventually apps stopped working. I like the idea of getting to easily throw new hardware at my machine to keep it going.
(I also tired of Apple shoving bad experiences down my throat (TouchBar, Butterfly keyboards, thin glass screens that crack, USB-C and no USB-A...) so I spec'ed out my Framework with USB-C and USB-A.)
But aside from repairability when stuff breaks, a laptop's hardware slowly becomes obsolete because software is usually written for the new stuff. If you're like me and you keep your laptop for 10 years, that means: in year 1 you have 1 year old hardware, in year 6 you have 6 year old hardware, etc. So your laptop gets worse and worse performance because you can't incrementally upgrade your hardware... you only upgrade in a big bang every 10 years when you buy a new one. Towards the end of its life, you're really struggling to keep the thing above water.
With a Framework, in theory I can upgrade the hardware incrementally over time rather than needing a big bang every 10 years. So instead of having 6 year old hardware at year 6, I'll probably have 2 year old hardware again. So I'll more closely match the industry improvements curve.
Will this work in reality? Will it be expensive to replace all the parts, and will the case be able to cool new CPUs, and will I have to get a new mainboard, etc? Who knows. But I thought it was interesting enough to take a gamble on the laptop. And worst case, it's not a fatal decision... I can just go back to MacBooks...
The problem is that the Framework starts so far behind in performance and battery efficiency of a cheaper Macbook that you aren’t saving money on perf upgrades.
You really do have to buy it for the idea rather than the reality.
> Framework starts so far behind in performance ...
Honest question and not meant to flame anyone. What benchmark are you referring to regarding performance; spec sheets or your tools are not working correctly or working slowly?
Just trying to understand users needs in upgrading. I have some new MacBooks and some old linux laptops. They both equally work just fine for what I need to do, and I am starting to question the need for me to update to a new MacBook M* chipset moving forward.
I don't love this comparison, because I have to use Linux, not Mac. It's not really optional for me, and Asahi simply isn't far enough along to fill the gap.
As a result, the question is more Framework vs. Dell or Lenovo, and that creates a much smaller gap in capability in the 13" form factor.
Find me a new MacBook Air that’s $1000 for 2TB of storage + 32GB of RAM, because that’s what I paid for my Framework 13 brand new (before RAM insanity, but this would still only cost about $1200 today).
A $50 battery pack solved the battery efficiency problem.
So for a little extra weight (external battery + FW13 weighs the same as a MB Pro 14”) I get a lot more actual capability in places that matters than a base MacBook Air.
And I’m not stuck with macOS arbitrarily dropping support for my non-upgradable all-soldered hardware every 10 years.
(I also couldn’t really find a similar Lenovo at anything close to that price/spec with the kind of requirements I have - good keyboard with low flex, nice to haves like the 3:2 aspect ratio, generally a programmer-oriented laptop. My second choice might be a Lenovo ThinkPad X9 Aura Edition. The T-series has unacceptable deck flex).
Replacing a CPU means replacing a motherboard - this is mostly true for desktops too. And by the time you’re ready for a new CPU there is almost certainly a new type of RAM to get.
I can't even recall when I last needed USB-A, literally everything I have uses USB-C (or bluetooth for mouse and keyboard). What do you use it for?
Current items in my possession that are still in use and use USB-A
* keyboard
* mouse dongle
* webcam
* microphone
* mouse charging cable
* smart watch charging cable
* SATA hard drive dock
* 32GB and 64GB USB memory sticks
Things that use USB-C
* new SD card reader
* new headphones dongle
* smart phone charging cable
Some of the above could maybe be replaced with a USB-C equivalent, but they are still working and I'm still using them. Why waste money and create waste replacing them?
USB-A is our second most popular Expansion Card after USB-C (and before HDMI), so certainly people are using it for something!
It's funny. I think a lot of more software-y people just don't see the need for a lot of Framework features. I deal with a lot of hardware (as a hobbyist and a hardware engineer) and I've seen every USB standard connector in the last week.
I also own something like three different Framework products (16, 13 and Desktop) and gifted two more (13 and Desktop) to people. Really, apart from the fit issues on 16 spacers and perhaps the speakers, the only really unforgivable issue is the size of the expansion cards (too small for interesting hardware like a good LTE modem).
I'm not trying to sit in my arm chair and act like I know better, but do you think it's possible people order those just in case?
Hi it's me from the past. I daily drive a VGA screen and a USB-A hub that connects my USB-A mouse and USB-A keyboard. My µSD-card reader uses USB-A. Ethernet adapter (for when I need a second NIC) is also USB-A but it came with an adapter to C so I have a choice there. All USB sticks I've ever seen are A, as well as all external hard drives. My charging cables are predominantly USB-A to micro, and nowadays I also need C for my phone. It's a bit annoying to need that extra C charging cable everywhere after we had already standardized on micro (except for Apple), but at least there's one standard now (xkcd.com/927) after the current devices die
Edit: forgot the printer. I connect it via USB-A on demand. /edit.
My laptop (bought this year) charges via a DC barrel jack, afaik because USB-C doesn't deliver enough power for peak usage. Buying a little HDMI-VGA converter was a lot cheaper than throwing a perfectly good screen away. My keyboard, mouse, and other peripherals also simply still work, seems silly to replace them just to get a C variant when 700-1300€ laptops have 1 or 2 C ports and always 2 A ports (I happen to be up-to-date on that, at least, because I helped someone select a new laptop ereyesterday)
I don't know what I'd need more than one C port for but I'm very happy that there is more than one A port on my laptop. Add in the standard set of 3.5mm jack, HDMI, ethernet, card reader, and charging, and you're already at more ports than even the new Framework 16 can physically fit in its frame, let alone nerd ports like serial or a second ethernet port. I considered buying a double-priced Framework earlier this year for the linux support and upgradeability (I really support their goal and would pay that premium if it were a suitable system) but this is one of the main reasons it just doesn't work for me: I'm actually a power user that regularly uses these connections and more
I have a stash of USB keyboards and mice in my closet, gathered from various sources for free. They're all USB-A because they're like 15 years old. The SD card reader I got somewhere ages ago is USB-A. My Xbox 360 controller is USB-A. So I got a USB-A module. Shrug.
I got a couple of type-A cards for my AMD FW13 and generally keep one loaded in the laptop for connecting to random junk like flash drives, charging cables for all sorts of widgets (like my bike light or head lamp), etc. I get dramatically more use out of the type-C cards. And in the quite-rare cases where I really need all of the type-C ports, I'll just eject the type-A card and plug directly into the chassis without the interposer at all rather than carry an extra type-C with me.
That said, there have been a few things that have been a bit less than deluxe on my FW13:
- The touchpad mechanical click is just not that good. It is too sensitive to exact pressure and touch location and I find holding it down and dragging to be excessively difficult compared to all other touchpads I've ever used.
- The delete key seems to oxidize and needs a bunch of hard mashing to get it to become responsive. No, it's not sticky or dirty.
- The air intake on the bottom is highly prone to getting blocked, mostly by my legs.
- There's no BIOS option to turn down the brightness or disable altogether the charging status LEDs, and I find that when I travel and can't keep the laptop in a separate room that it's bright enough to interrupt sleep. I've taped over them, but the light leakage from other crevices is still sufficient to be at least mildly annoying. The translucent Ethernet adapter card also acts like a lightbulb.
- The laptop ramps its current consumption from type-C very quickly and seems like it overshoots its target a little bit, and so it is the only device I have that trips out the OCP on some of my bricks.
- There's no BIOS option to artificially limit the charging power, and so I often trip the OCP on aircraft if my battery is not fully charged before plugging in. I don't want to carry a secondary small brick just to use on planes.
- The LCD backlight uniformity and color quality are mediocre, but for my use case I just don't really care that much. For me, this is a portable technical productivity machine and not an art studio, so it doesn't matter.
- The LCD backlight intensity curve is pretty bad. I very-frequently want to have a brightness in-between the lowest and second-lowest settings. I would love to get more control at the bottom and less at the top. It feels like it's linear when it should be logarithmic.
- The speakers suck. So does the volume control. I very rarely go above 10% volume and frequently don't have sufficient control resolution at the bottom. Anything above about 14-16% volume causes something to distort and other stuff to rattle. Luckily I mostly don't consume media, so this is rarely a real problem. But it is truly atrocious.
All that said, I'm generally a pretty happy camper. I look forward to continued improvements from the company over the years.
What I have plugged in via USB-A right now: Ethernet adapter; Generic gamepad; Logitech wireless keyboard receiver; Sony waterproof Walkman cradle.
I use USB-A for mouse and keyboard, so I need at least two ports. Both are much better with a cord.
I still do have a few USB-A: Yubikey, mouse receiver, Streamdeck, USB sticks, webcam, old HDD hard drives I use for backups...
I guess I could, but I would rather not upgrade all of those to USB-C and I really tired of having to carry dongles everywhere.
I even like that if I were consistently using HDMI, I could actually just put an HDMI extension card into my laptop and still not need a dongle. It's customizable to my usage at any point in the laptop's life.
Even limiting discussion to "routine consumer use": Mouse and keyboard dongles, USB sticks for copying things off the scanner or 3D printer or whatever. Joysticks and game controllers still live in drawers and come out every once in a while. These things are still Just Not Made in USB-C except in a handful of weird devices.
And even then, I'm not re-buying junk that works. I just swapped for a webcam that has a C cable, and ironically it's being used with an adapter because the integrated hub on the KVM switch is A-only.
Also dev tasks like flashing bootable ChromeOS and linux images pretty regularly, connecting to a Flyswatter JTAG adapter, UART adapters, etc...
USB-A was actually a really great plug and objectively works better for a lot of applications than the tiny C connector.
I don't care about the upgradeability or repairability. I think that people espousing these points need a reality check - other laptops aren't that bad for repairability (I have always had Alienwares, and have had no trouble sourcing and installing parts in laptops even 10+ years old), and piecemeal upgrades really don't make sense in the long term. Framework also seems to have attracted a certain type of activist that I won't get into here (they're very opinionated about the company's donations).
I've ordered a Framework 16, though. Not for any of that crap, but just to be able to customise it. That's what I love. They should really lean in to this.
Once the eco and repairability nonsense has faded - and it will, because it's marketing fluff - you still have a laptop that is extremely versatile from a company that doesn't hate you. It's not bloated with spyware by default, the checkout process isn't full of dark patterns, they support and encourage you to use it how you want to use it.
Lean in. Make more modules. Make better modules. Assist the community more with new and varied modules. It's crazy that eGPU and dual USB modules are primarily driven by amateur forum volunteers rather than being major priorities for Framework's engineers. Design a low-profile mechanical keyboard, I don't care for your excuses. Give us proper touchpad options with buttons. Keyboard modules with scroll wheels and panning for CAD.
These are what makes Framework special. In 3 or 4 years it's going to be thrown on the same pile as all of my other old laptops, never to be upgraded or repaired again. I don't care for that. I just want a laptop customised for my needs over that time, rather than fighting against the antagonistic whims of Dell et al.
>You can't change the RAM on laptops now. >You can't change the SSD on laptops now.
I literally just brought a laptop 3 weeks ago and I've already upgraded both of those. It's a newer model with an RTX GPU.
I think framework has potential, but it's going to be a decade to see how things pan out. Will I be able to use the same mainboard for a decade?
So far what I'm seeing is a laptop brand which charges between 50% and 100% more with strange customer support issues and a limited service network.
If you're thinking about reducing waste , buy a refurbished Thinkpad.
I think laptop gamers, and developers that use gaming laptops for work machines are somewhat niche (and I'm in that niche).
Because PC gamers often buy desktops. And console gamers buy consoles while handheld gamers buy handhelds and smartphone gamers...
Then there are other kinds of laptop users... the various Macbook users from the lightweight travel Air to the beefy desktop replacement 16" Macbook Pro, and the Windows business laptop users, and the Linux laptop users.
(I think we'd all do well to remember the variety in computers and computer users...)
So yeah, I've rarely bought anything but a gaming laptop that could easily be upgraded via RAM or SSD, and when I've bought non-upgradeable laptops (a tiny Asus 2-in-1 touchscreen) I found it just wasn't for me and I ended up selling it.
My favorite gaming laptops... Lenovo Legion 5 Pro, Acer Nitro 16. My spouse uses a Legion 5 Pro. My sister uses my 5+ year old Legion 5. They've all been a combination of good or great screen, great keyboard, good hardware, pretty quiet except when cranking up for demanding games, and so far all have been reliable, upgradeable, etc. We don't tend to use them on battery, but I've found that they tend to do 4-5 hours easily for basic usage. I wouldn't expect them to do well at all when pulling 100+ W for gaming.
First, I think you're correct that a used/refurb Thinkpad is a good solution for many people.
For me, what found attractive about the Framework is that I just don't like the idea of replacing my laptops wholesale. I like the little piecemeal upgrades that Framework offers. I like my tech to stay as unchanged as it can. I don't want to adjust to a new keyboard and touchpad and screen and charging situation all at the same time. I prefer the route of doing little upgrades over time, where things only change a little bit, when I'm ready for them to. Maybe next year I will upgrade the screen; maybe the next year I'll drop the USB-A module for something more useful; a couple years after that maybe I'll get a new mainboard; and all through this it's still the same laptop I've known and gotten used to. This is how I manage my desktop, and Framework lets me do the same with a laptop.
It's just a personality thing I think. Framework's piecemeal upgrade story is more attractive to me, but I agree there's other routes for people with other priorities.
> Will I be able to use the same mainboard for a decade?
Maybe, but you can actually just upgrade the mainboard. Framework has already done that cycle a couple of times. And they made sure the mainboard can work without a battery (not exactly a high bar, but it's better than most), so your old mainboard can pop into a small case and get a second life as a NUC
We’ve done seven different versions of Mainboard for Framework Laptop 13 already!
* 11th Gen Intel Core
* 12th Gen Intel Core
* Chromebook Edition
* 13th Gen Intel Core
* Ryzen 7040 Series
* Intel Core Ultra Series 1
* Ryzen AI 300 Series
There are a couple of third party boards from DeepComputing too.
The mainboards typically cost as much as a new laptop.
What really excites me is the prospect of 3rd party mainboards and other components. This ecosystem is still just getting started though.
It seems like this is the beta product, I'll wait for the finished one.
They don't?
Ryzen 340 mainboard: $450 https://frame.work/products/mainboard-amd-ai300?v=FRANTE0005
Ryzen 340 laptop: $1100 https://frame.work/products/laptop13-amd-ai300/configuration...
Yeah it's certainly the single most expensive component, but it's still cheaper than a whole new laptop and, more to the point, less waste than a whole new laptop
No they don't, they start at a few hundred. They'd all be an upgrade for my bought-at-launch £750/800ish Framework 13.
An upgrade like that does mean I need new (DDR5) RAM too though, which tightens the gap a bit (or a byte, at the moment).
7 times, for the Fw13.
I love my thinkpad, wrote up my experience with the Thinkpad T480 last year:
https://maxrozen.com/replacing-my-macbook-m1-with-thinkpad-t...
and a quick buyers guide here:
https://maxrozen.com/getting-your-own-good-enough-laptop-for...
The HN thread responding to your T480 article is all that's needed to understand why it's not really a replacement for a MBP:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34878240
Or buy an up-specced conventional laptop with a ton more storage and RAM to start with for the same price. Get your upgrades in first at no extra cost.
If you're getting a Framework with the top specs and can't get a competing laptop at higher spec cheaper, I can see the argument that you might benefit from the extra upgradability headroom. However that almost certainly means a mainboard upgrade, and I'd be concerned about the thermals of a current chassis with a hypothetical future mainboard.
Until recently with the recent madness it was almost always cheaper to buy a base model then upgrade RAM and storage yourself.
In terms of hardware, there shouldn't be too many surprises. People have been doing this with desktop computers for ages, so it's known what it means to maintain and upgrade 10+ years old computers. I have one (desktop) that I'm using regularly, and did a few minor upgrades over the years.
Of course, warranty and support quality is a different question.
You can buy a new mainboard for a framework…
I work international (somewhat of a digital nomad) so perhaps I’m an outlier in my usage. I have an M1 MacBook Pro that I bought new at release. I can’t replace the memory or storage. But so far I didn’t need to do that.
In case it breaks, I walk to my nearby electronics store and purchase a new MacBook Pro. With Time Machine restore I am up an running within an hour. The M1 goes onto the pile of stuff to repair later. And this is where the international part plays a role, in nearly any city in the western world I can grab a new MacBook Pro within an hour.
My day rate is significant enough that downtime is expensive. Not working for a week waiting for Framework to send parts is not an option for me. I can get next day delivery for memory and an SSD through Amazon in most of Europe but that is still a day rate wasted.
> In case it breaks, I walk to my nearby electronics store and purchase a new MacBook Pro. > Not working for a week waiting for Framework to send parts is not an option for me.
You are comparing apples and oranges here. Apple is internationally available because it is 40 years old and very successful. There's no reason why Framework cannot be that successful in 10 years time.
Furthermore, when Framework might become that successful, no need to buy a full new laptop, you can just buy the stuff that failed and move on. And if that does happen, then experience with Framework promises to be much better than experience with Macbook.
This is why I have a solid desktop and then just RDP into it.
The laptop can then be whatever and if it breaks or gets stolen it's not a big deal. I don't need an expensive laptop and all my stuff is on the desktop so nothing to lose.
Does require a somewhat decent internet connection but nothing special.
Sorry! So many questions. That electronics store won't sell RAM and SSD sticks? Which cities have stores that can sell Macbooks but not RAM & SSD? Like why wait for Amazon next day delivery if your SSD or RAM dies? Why would you wait for Framework to ship parts, unless it's the main board. Even then, wouldn't it be much cheaper to just plug in the SSD into an M.2 slot (of any generic new/old laptop) and rsync your way to productivity in pretty much the same time a Time Machine restore would take?
Not just RAM and SSD. Displays can break. Power ports can break. USB-C ports can break. Keyboards can break. PCBs can break. And those take time to ship if you have a Dell, HP, Framework or even an Apple machine. I like being able to walk to a nearby store and grab a new MacBook Pro in case I quickly need a new machine to continue my work. My clients typically hire me for short periods and they need me to work at full capacity for that time period. Waiting a week while Framework ships me a new display is not an option.
A Time Machine restore has never failed me. You are fully operational after the backup is restored. Syncing your data onto an SSD via M2 isn't comparable.
Your initial comment made it seem like, the repairable options are just so incovenient to the point where buying a new machine was the solution. So my questions were mainly around why that would be the case. But, it seems like your requirements are pretty stringent to the point nothing other than a Time Machine backup compatible machine would make sense.
The way all of the backup/sync/restore is so dialed in on MacOS/iOS/iPadOS at this point is pretty hard to beat. You get a performant fat client that you can treat like an interchangeable thin client as the need arises.
Exactly. I have a high-speed USB-C disk connected to my machine and an off-site backup. The first is for accidentally deleted files and to be able to quickly recover. The other is more of an actual backup. My iPhone and MacBook are indeed expendable devices at this point.
All the stores I can get to within a reasonable time period stock ISO keyboards instead of ANSI, and I've never really warmed up to those. So I'm stuck with next-day even for macs.
Agreed, though for the sake of ergonomics I hardly use the built-in keyboard and almost always have an external keyboard connected.
I'm also a laptop weirdo and I've had a Framework 13 with the Ryzen 7 motherboard since May of 2022. I run Ubuntu (currently 25.10) on it.
Its a good laptop, but not a great laptop. Its very light and compact (very important to me), and its been reliable, at least since the AMD GPU driver issues were resolved. The matte screen is fine, battery life is adequate, and the CPU meets my needs as a hobby developer.
Overall, I'm happy with it and I expect to use it for many years.
Its biggest issues are the touchpad (it's a diving board design, so you have to always click in the bottom 1/3 of the pad) and the quality of the case. The case flexes slightly if the computer is on an uneven surface, or if you are holding it in one hand by the corner while typing/mousing with your other hand, and this can cause the mechanics of the touchpad to jam. I've trained myself to tap instead of click, but that's me adapting to bad hardware.
I wish the case were more solid, even though I know this would add to the expense, size and weight. I expect to eventually replace every part of this laptop except the case, so I would appreciate more durability.
I tried a coworker’s, I was a bit shocked how poor the case is. Everything flexes badly, especially the keyboard.
I was considering one, but definitely not worth it. I can get a ThinkPad for less and it’s much better quality.
Also, something weird:
I looked up my purchase using my Framework account to confirm my purchase date, and it lists my mother board as System: Intel® Core™ i7-1260P. Sloppy record keeping like this doesn't inspire confidence.
It is definitely not, and /proc/cpuinfo confirms it:
model name : AMD Ryzen 7 7840U w/ Radeon 780M Graphics
Could you submit a support ticket around the order record issue? We certainly want to determine what happened there: https://frame.work/support/
I have been looking to buy a new laptop personally. Framework has a compelling argument. But with only 4 ports on the Framework, I'd likely be switching the ports often. In addition to using USB-C, I often need a USB-A for an external mouse but other times a HDMI port to connect to a display while presenting.
I don't think it's fair to compare Thinkpad X1 Carbon with Framework. The T14 range is a much better comparison. While Lenovo took a few steps back a few years ago the last couple of generations seem to be much better in regard to being repairable. The T14 Gen 5 [0] gets a 9/10 score on ifixit. Parts are easily available globally, while Framework is still somewhat limited in this regard geographically.
That said, it's great we have a choice! If it were not for Framework, I don't think Lenovo would have made an effort to make the Thinkpads repairable again.
- [0] https://www.ifixit.com/Device/Lenovo_ThinkPad_T14_Gen_5
you can switch the ports pretty quickly on framework laptops.
In my experience (my partner has a Framework), changing a port is not something easily done without putting the Framework bottom side up. In practice you need to stop whatever you are doing to first sleep the laptop, turn it over, change the port and then get back to what you were doing before. Repeat the process if you want to get the ports back in the original order.
To me, the biggest appeal of the Framework laptop is that I can repair it myself and buy OEM parts directly.
I currently own a Lenovo Legion laptop. Still, a very powerful machine, but the screen now has a spot in the middle with multiple dead pixels, the topcoat on the trackpad is peeling off, and the main body has spots where palms rest. I'd happily buy replacement parts and install them, but I can't.
Can you buy a cheap donor laptop and strip it for parts?
I don't understand the argument you can buy Lenovo OEM parts pretty easily? Even if something is not available through the pcparts site I ordered a replacement display via support.
https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/parts-lookup
Yeah! I am also surprised. I have a lenovo from 2015 that's gotten it's wifi card, power IC, RAM - all replaced at some point for very cheap across multiple cities in India. And all this is on a Ideapad. One of their budget "professional" laptops, not even a Thinkpad.
While I understand what Framework is doing and the repairability aspect, somehow this conversation always seems to make it seem Laptops are similar to Ipads or something. It's not.
I purchased the first generation of FW13 laptops and got burned. The CMOS/RTC battery drains if not plugged in so the laptop never keeps proper time. I don't think I've ever used a gadget in the last few decades that needs setting the correct date & time every time I turn it on.
Granted, it was their first ever shipping product so I gave them a free pass but I thought they would atleast issue a recall or have a repair program where you send in the laptop to get it fixed. Instead they first denied it was even an issue, later on when enough people complained - they started a battery program where they send you a new ML220 coin battery that will also eventually stop working.
I was told buying a new mainboard (12th or 13th gen Intel) would fix it, but I decided to just buy a new ZenBook instead.
We have the full detail and a permanent fix for this issue here: https://guides.frame.work/Guide/RTC+Battery+Substitution+on+...
We still provide the RTC substitute module free to any 11th Gen owner who requests it.
The permanent fix involves soldering stuff on the mainboard, which I don't have any prior experience. The RTC substitute module you mention is just the ML220 coin battery that will also eventually stop working.
I don't get Framework. The business offerings of HP, Dell and Lenovo have a lot of replacable parts, and you can easily upgrade the RAM and SSD on many. These laptops already exist for decades. Framework hardly brings anything new into the mix.
Bought a thinkpad L450 10 years ago for about 900 euros. No GPU, which probably increased its lifespan. Replaced its HDD with a SSD.
Apart from thinkpads and maybe framework, I don't think there is any other reliable laptop brand with reasonable prices.
I was talking with my mother about buying jeans pants that would last for a long time, and a 200 euros jeans would have holes on its 6th year or something. Everything is built to last "just long enough".
I was on the market earlier this year snd I really wanted a framework to make sense. But it doesn’t. By my math, I could get two comparable laptops for the price of the framework, and the flexibility to get a second one with newer specs a few years down made it a bad deal for me. But if you aren’t strapped for cash and appreciate the sustainability, then it’s appealing. For me, a slightly greener laptop isn’t a good enough value proposition. Plus I prefer intel for TB support for an egpu.
What were you comparing against? When I bought my framework it didn't really have a price premium to it relatively to comparable laptops. The main compromise was the thicker chassis and fewer options in terms of things like premium displays.
> Plus I prefer intel for TB support for an egpu.
lol you and nobody else prefer Intel in a laptop these days. But FYI framework has TB support on their Intel skus and AMD has USB 4 (aka, thunderbolt 3++)
I didn't want to take any risks wrt the egpu support because with an egpu there's already a whole lot of unknowns, so wanted to play it safe with proper TB support. It's a bit of a niche requirement though, so I get that other people may not care. But aside from that I just wanted a basic cheap and light laptop. I got an Acer for £500 on sale with a 2nd gen intel chip. Despite the hate intel gets, their 2nd gen chips are actually really good in terms of battery life. If I spec a comparable laptop right now on Framework, it's around £1400, even for 1st gen intel. Plus the Acer came with a lovely OLED screen, which the framework doesn't seem to have, as you mentioned.
> Did I do anything productive or meaningful with it? Absolutely not.
> I could finally watch 480 YouTube videos instead of 360
What’s meaningless about this big upgrade in quality?
So with that and the misconceptions like "You can't change the RAM /SSD" (you can, but for a smaller set of laptops than before), the thesis is rather muddy (unless you literally plan a custom printed snacks tray, but even then other laptops have pluggable side bays, so could also plug in there?)
Oh, I did magnificent things to my old Toughbook CF-17 / CF-m34. (It ended up as a franken-puter with parts of both.)
First: Remove the internal CDPD wireless modem, remove the internal 56k POTS modem/10/100 Ethernet combo card. Wire the TTL-level UART from the CDPD port over to the RJ11 jack so I could now hack on embedded devices using a simple RJ11-to-bare-wires cable.
Second: The modem/ethernet card removal freed up the MiniPCI slot. Obtain a MiniPCI-to-USB2.0 card (4 downstream ports), and desolder the tall headers (it was meant for embedded machines with more internal space). Then verrrry carefully desolder the machine's external USB1.1 port pins from the mobo, and wire them over to one of the USB2.0 host ports. (Ground stayed, but D+/D-/Vbus moved.) Ta-daa, faster external devices.
This is the only bit I seem to have a photo of: https://flickr.com/photos/myself248/255205625/
Third: Carve out some stiffening ribs from under the palm-rest, shuck a USB-Bluetooth adapter, and mount it in there. The palm-rest being plastic means this puts the radio outside the magnesium shell, but still "internal" from an ergonomic perspective. Sneak some wires past the touchpad opening and solder them to the now-freed-up USB1.1 host port on the mobo, since bluetooth doesn't need 480Mbps.
Fourth: Shuck a 2GB USB flash drive and wire it to another internal USB2.0 port, and run EBoostr, a third-party implementation of Readyboost for WinXP, which gave flash-cache functionality for severely RAM-limited machines like mine (192MB mobo max, sadly!). Tuck it up by the RAM, ironically, because there's plenty of room up there.
Fifth: Shuck a USB2.0-GigE adapter (one with separate magnetics and jack, leave the magnetics but remove the jack because it's too tall, also remove the USB port), and wire it to yet a third internal USB2.0 port. Wire the Ethernet side out to the RJ45 jack freed up by the 10/100 card removal. The speed boost from 100Mbps to 480Mbps (GigE bottlenecked by USB2.0) isn't nothing, but the real benefit is that GigE is Auto-MDIX so I never have to carry a crossover cable, and that's worth it all by itself.
Sixth: Shuck a USB-Wifi dongle, and wire it to the fourth and final internal USB2.0 port. Do the world's hairiest coax splice to the CDPD modem's antenna lead, so the 2.4GHz RF now goes out to the 800MHz-tuned antenna mounted on the screen. Split the antenna open and trim the active elements to 1/3 their length, raising the resonant frequency accordingly. Without access to a VNA at the time, this was as good as I could get, and it worked just fine.
At that point, it was pretty much the perfect laptop, except for the brutally-limited RAM, which eventually forced its obsolescence as browsers bloated without bound. I used it heavily during 2006-07, and to this day I still miss that perfect little keyboard.
I love all of this.
I’ve never been brave enough to modify my laptops beyond the one time I sprayed a new (hard) topcoat on an Acer Aspire 5520g… which turned it from a flimsy piece of garbage into a slightly less flimsy piece of garbage.
I feel like running a Thinkpad x201 these days would be a lesson in frustration (for the browser bloat you mentioned) but that was my perfect laptop. If I could do a mainboard swap I would continue to use it.
They need to bring trackpoint and WWAN, otherwise they simply are not a competition for Lenovo, as much as I hate it.
I also find their design very boring. I am not asking for a MacBook, but even ThinkPads are way more sexy and you can actually identify with that design. Framework just comes off as another 2015 MacBook Air design knockoff.
I’d like to read from someone who has at least 5 years of experience with Framework. New stuffs are always interesting. But I prefer something that can last for 5 plus years. Framework afaik does not have long term guarantees which is a concern.
Framework as a company is only 5 years old, but they've already done several generations of upgrade parts (including webcam, keyboard, display, mainboards, etc...) and have large availability of repair/replacement parts. So unless their parts are uniquely bad in that they randomly fail after 5 years, it seems pretty clear that they are delivering on the long term ownership goals?
I think that's a reasonable point - is there anyone doing "State of My Framework" reports? It's hard to know how true their claim of timelessness through upgrades and repairs is without that.
Relevant to "I'm returning my Framework Laptop" from a day or two ago (500+ comments):
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46375174
I think the Framework model (OTC/commodity parts + mainboard) is neat, but what Beelink and others in the MiniPC space are doing is much more useful and compelling for someone who needs a modern, extensible system.
My work doesn't require a lot of local compute (or repairs), so there's nothing really a Framework offers that I'm not already getting on a 5 year old $150 4GB Chromebook.