That's cool to see, obiously Fermi has had them as someone else mentioned.
I grew up in Kane County, in the 90s it was the edge of the suburban-rural interface of Chicagoland (used to be the last commuter rail stop from the city).
Random fun tidbit is the WW1 code-breaking[0] that took place there as well, which today remains an acoustics lab[1].
The Fermilab herd was always one of the highlights of visiting there. I always thought that was a really good use for the space inside the accelerator, a nice version of nature and science coexisting. I have it in my head that we used to be able to just drive through Fermi to see the Bison (late 80s/90s).
It's probably harder for bison to free range like deer these days. Deer are extremely agile and can leap most fences with ease. Deer are also pretty docile when they're not in rut. Outside of nature preserves it doesn't seem realistic.
Deer have become almost a nuisance species closer in to Chicago. I’ve seen them in Oak Park about 2 miles away from the nearest forest land. In River Forest, which actually contains forest preserve, things got so bad the village wanted to hire a firm to shoot the deer, but the residents were too shocked by that proposal and it never happened.
I’m in River Forest and the deer are a pain to deal with. They eat your plants, they’re not afraid of people (because they get hand feed) and they get hit by cars.
They’re lacking their natural predators — and the logical solution of introducing them is ruled out because the local forest preserves aren’t large enough to support wolf packs.
Maybe the coyotes will figure out how to take them down.
You need to shoot the people who are feeding them - that's the logical solution to the problem you posed 8) Their natural predators are now cars because that is how things are now.
An environment is whatever it is at a point in time. You have described how things are around you and that is the current normal. You may not like it or even understand it but that is how it is.
You have to decide whether deer should live within your domain or not. At the moment it sounds like they are a negative factor for you. When you have run out of deer, will you start on the coyotes? When you have run out of creatures with backbones, will you start on arthropodia or amphibians?
Not really. The deer that thrive in suburban areas learn to watch for traffic. Even where deer vs car collisions are common, deer multiply well beyond what car traffic takes out. Really, hunting is the only way to thin the numbers.
Deer eat grass, they can thrive almost anywhere in North America just fine with or without people feeding them.
In suburbs they probably need to capture and slaughter some number of them to keep the numbers reasonable.
Deer can eat grass, but it's not their preferred food, and they can't thrive on it. They eat forbs, shoots, browse (twigs, buds, etc.) and mast like acorns (they are set up to deal with the large amounts of tannin in acorns).
"Although low quality forages such as mature grasses provide adequate nutrition to animals such as elk and cattle, the quicker digestive process of whitetails requires more readily digestible forages to fulfill their energy and protein requirements. On severely overpopulated and depleted ranges, white-tailed deer have starved to death with their stomachs full of low quality forages."
Point taken. Of course, again there is no shortage of shrubbery in suburban environments. And the last point is just what always happens when a species that evolved as prey is no longer hunted.
Well there was a lynx spotted in north Oak Park in the last couple-three years so there’s another potential predator, but yep, they definitely need predation. I’ve seen some sizable herds north of North Avenue in the forest preserve there (along with lots of bread put out by people who wanted to feed the deer). They’re a lot bolder there than south of North.
Look up to my post—the village proposed shooting the deer and residents decided that they’d rather have nuisance deer than see Bambi shot in their neighborhood. (There’s also the safety questions around shooting deer in residential neighborhoods to deal with as well.)
An additional data point is that Midewin's bison area is surrounded by a double fence - a barbed-wire one to keep the humans out and a stout steel one to keep the bison in.
The Fermilab bison used to have (probably still do) a sign in their field that said, amusingly, not to jump the fence into the field unless you can cross it in 9 seconds, because the bull can do it in 10. (grew up on the DuPage county side of Fermilab, got to take physics there too, which was awesome)
I realize bison can force down many fences but thats what I mean. I've seen neighborhoods where deer thrive in the suburbs largely grazing in people's yards and medians on the roadway. They are sometimes even fed corn by the residents. Bison are not only much more destructive, they are sometimes quite violent and will charge and horn people without warning. They need to be on ranches with special fencing or preserves.
Stuff like this gives a satisfying sense of restoring order. This is the way things were before dramatic human intervention. The ironic part is that the restoration itself requires human intervention. I always find myself wondering what would happen if humans just disappeared overnight. How things are now would be the starting point of the "new natural." Ecosystems probably wouldn't return to the way they were before Europeans arrived; they would proceed along some new pathway. Not least because of how much we've already changed the climate, and the species we've introduced. Then I think about a time 100,000 years after this hypothetical disappearance of humans and picture conservationists of whatever species, aliens maybe, concerned with protecting the indigenous species they found like wild cows, Himalayan blackberry and kudzu, that are now endangered by overdevelopment and global cooling.
Anyway it would be really interesting to be able to chart the changes to this microcosm of a prairie ecosystem over thousands of years if there were no human intervention whatsoever.
Wild cows won't really happen, aside from them being easy prey, milk cows can't even feed their young because they produce so much milk that they drown them. They have to feed the babies with a bottle.
Idk my Dad worked on a dairy farm part time when I was a kid and I've never heard of that. That's just not how teats and udders work. There is nothing here about how the cow makes too much milk and will drown the calf.
Definitely more of a luxury exercise. A sort of zoo with even more researchers and administrators watching over
Id personally put that money into fighting the Pine Beatles which at this moment are killing huge swathes of existing wildlife and ecosystems. But that’s hard laborious work.
Unfortunately there are apparently no real true American bison anymore. A sturdy a while ago showed that all American bison in all of North America have varying degrees of cattle DNA. They’re basically all “beefalo”. They are quite different from cattle in many ways, but they aren’t actually really American bison anymore. Those technically are extinct by objective measures, not all that different than if you breed one dog with a different one, the offspring is neither of the parents and also basically nothing at all until some defining characteristics are identified, reproduced and named at least as a sub-breed.
Do you recall anything about where those herds are, because I’ve only seen research showing that all treated herds have identifiable cattle DNA, i.e., https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-09828-z
I was told when I worked at Philmont Scout Ranch [1] that they had a pure herd.
Other than that, I know Steven Rinella listed a few pure herds in his (excellent) book [2] on the American Buffalo, but I'd have to dig it out to find them for you.
"Wind Cave and Yellowstone National Parks are the only two federal herds to have population sizes large enough for sufficient testing. Both herds show no evidence of cattle introgression."
That's cool to see, obiously Fermi has had them as someone else mentioned.
I grew up in Kane County, in the 90s it was the edge of the suburban-rural interface of Chicagoland (used to be the last commuter rail stop from the city).
Random fun tidbit is the WW1 code-breaking[0] that took place there as well, which today remains an acoustics lab[1].
[0]https://web.archive.org/web/20220521185943/https://northwest...
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverbank_Laboratories
> obiously Fermi has had them as someone else mentioned.
I highly recommend a visit if you’re ever in the area.
https://www.fnal.gov/pub/community/
https://www.fnal.gov/pub/community/hours.html
If your schedule allows, try to time your visit around any of the science fairs that they sponsor and/or host. Top notch all around.
There have been bison at Fermilab for some years, but they are just over the border in Dupage County, not Kane County.
Kane Country has had cougars for quite a while. :)
The Fermilab herd was always one of the highlights of visiting there. I always thought that was a really good use for the space inside the accelerator, a nice version of nature and science coexisting. I have it in my head that we used to be able to just drive through Fermi to see the Bison (late 80s/90s).
More on the bison at Fermi: https://www.fnal.gov/pub/about/bisoncam/
There's a couple dozen at Midewin, too: https://www.fs.usda.gov/r09/midewin/animals-plants/bison-pro...
I honestly thought Fermilab was in Kane. I could see it from my front yard growing up west of Geneva.
I think the tiniest slice of it is in Kane, but that's not where they have the bison.
Look at that our little midwestern county is on the front page of HN.
Are they going to be able to free range, the way we commonly see whitetail deer roaming around the county?
It's probably harder for bison to free range like deer these days. Deer are extremely agile and can leap most fences with ease. Deer are also pretty docile when they're not in rut. Outside of nature preserves it doesn't seem realistic.
Deer have become almost a nuisance species closer in to Chicago. I’ve seen them in Oak Park about 2 miles away from the nearest forest land. In River Forest, which actually contains forest preserve, things got so bad the village wanted to hire a firm to shoot the deer, but the residents were too shocked by that proposal and it never happened.
"Deer have become almost a nuisance species closer in to Chicago."
Bloody locals, pissing around as though they own the place. Let's blast them to Kingdom Come ... hmmm tree huggers and kumbaya.
You've actually seen wildlife? Soz!
I’m in River Forest and the deer are a pain to deal with. They eat your plants, they’re not afraid of people (because they get hand feed) and they get hit by cars.
They’re lacking their natural predators — and the logical solution of introducing them is ruled out because the local forest preserves aren’t large enough to support wolf packs.
Maybe the coyotes will figure out how to take them down.
You need to shoot the people who are feeding them - that's the logical solution to the problem you posed 8) Their natural predators are now cars because that is how things are now.
An environment is whatever it is at a point in time. You have described how things are around you and that is the current normal. You may not like it or even understand it but that is how it is.
You have to decide whether deer should live within your domain or not. At the moment it sounds like they are a negative factor for you. When you have run out of deer, will you start on the coyotes? When you have run out of creatures with backbones, will you start on arthropodia or amphibians?
Not really. The deer that thrive in suburban areas learn to watch for traffic. Even where deer vs car collisions are common, deer multiply well beyond what car traffic takes out. Really, hunting is the only way to thin the numbers.
Deer eat grass, they can thrive almost anywhere in North America just fine with or without people feeding them.
In suburbs they probably need to capture and slaughter some number of them to keep the numbers reasonable.
Deer can eat grass, but it's not their preferred food, and they can't thrive on it. They eat forbs, shoots, browse (twigs, buds, etc.) and mast like acorns (they are set up to deal with the large amounts of tannin in acorns).
https://www.msudeer.msstate.edu/deer-diet.php
"Although low quality forages such as mature grasses provide adequate nutrition to animals such as elk and cattle, the quicker digestive process of whitetails requires more readily digestible forages to fulfill their energy and protein requirements. On severely overpopulated and depleted ranges, white-tailed deer have starved to death with their stomachs full of low quality forages."
Point taken. Of course, again there is no shortage of shrubbery in suburban environments. And the last point is just what always happens when a species that evolved as prey is no longer hunted.
Also plenty of immature grass. See also Canada Geese, which do prefer that.
Well there was a lynx spotted in north Oak Park in the last couple-three years so there’s another potential predator, but yep, they definitely need predation. I’ve seen some sizable herds north of North Avenue in the forest preserve there (along with lots of bread put out by people who wanted to feed the deer). They’re a lot bolder there than south of North.
Maybe the suburban apex predator (the car) will be enough to sort it out.
It's not, the deer that learn to live in suburbs learn to avoid traffic.
There are so many deer overpopulating in the eastern US that now they are getting weird prion diseases.
> they are getting weird prion diseases.
Aren’t those from cannibalism?
They should just legalize shooting the deer and this problem will get figured out pretty quick.
Look up to my post—the village proposed shooting the deer and residents decided that they’d rather have nuisance deer than see Bambi shot in their neighborhood. (There’s also the safety questions around shooting deer in residential neighborhoods to deal with as well.)
An additional data point is that Midewin's bison area is surrounded by a double fence - a barbed-wire one to keep the humans out and a stout steel one to keep the bison in.
The Fermilab bison used to have (probably still do) a sign in their field that said, amusingly, not to jump the fence into the field unless you can cross it in 9 seconds, because the bull can do it in 10. (grew up on the DuPage county side of Fermilab, got to take physics there too, which was awesome)
I don't think bison really care about fences either. While they don't leap over them, they just walk through them
I realize bison can force down many fences but thats what I mean. I've seen neighborhoods where deer thrive in the suburbs largely grazing in people's yards and medians on the roadway. They are sometimes even fed corn by the residents. Bison are not only much more destructive, they are sometimes quite violent and will charge and horn people without warning. They need to be on ranches with special fencing or preserves.
That’s what I was wondering. Makes sense.
Stuff like this gives a satisfying sense of restoring order. This is the way things were before dramatic human intervention. The ironic part is that the restoration itself requires human intervention. I always find myself wondering what would happen if humans just disappeared overnight. How things are now would be the starting point of the "new natural." Ecosystems probably wouldn't return to the way they were before Europeans arrived; they would proceed along some new pathway. Not least because of how much we've already changed the climate, and the species we've introduced. Then I think about a time 100,000 years after this hypothetical disappearance of humans and picture conservationists of whatever species, aliens maybe, concerned with protecting the indigenous species they found like wild cows, Himalayan blackberry and kudzu, that are now endangered by overdevelopment and global cooling.
Anyway it would be really interesting to be able to chart the changes to this microcosm of a prairie ecosystem over thousands of years if there were no human intervention whatsoever.
Wild cows won't really happen, aside from them being easy prey, milk cows can't even feed their young because they produce so much milk that they drown them. They have to feed the babies with a bottle.
Do you have a reference for that? Some googling says it is a myth, which sounds right.
Been to a dairy farm.
Idk my Dad worked on a dairy farm part time when I was a kid and I've never heard of that. That's just not how teats and udders work. There is nothing here about how the cow makes too much milk and will drown the calf.
https://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/youngstock-management/pros-c...
This is what the dairy farmer told me when I asked why they bottle feed.
More like a managed herd in a fenced paddock. A spring tourist attraction.
I wonder how climate change is going to affect the idealistic "restore the ecosystem" plan.
Definitely more of a luxury exercise. A sort of zoo with even more researchers and administrators watching over
Id personally put that money into fighting the Pine Beatles which at this moment are killing huge swathes of existing wildlife and ecosystems. But that’s hard laborious work.
You should read "The World Without Us" by Alan Weisman.
Seconded. I was going to say the exact same thing. Brilliant thought exercise that I still think about on a weekly basis 20 years later.
Hah, was just about to write that. Also recommended.
I love American bison and try to eat bison burgers and steak as much as possible to reward the ranchers who choose to raise them over cows.
Unfortunately there are apparently no real true American bison anymore. A sturdy a while ago showed that all American bison in all of North America have varying degrees of cattle DNA. They’re basically all “beefalo”. They are quite different from cattle in many ways, but they aren’t actually really American bison anymore. Those technically are extinct by objective measures, not all that different than if you breed one dog with a different one, the offspring is neither of the parents and also basically nothing at all until some defining characteristics are identified, reproduced and named at least as a sub-breed.
They have less than 2% cattle DNA, sometimes as little as 0.25%. That they were crossbreedable at all though shows they were already highly related.
A lot of coyotes are mixed with dogs and wolves too
There are several extant herds that have been genetically tested and proven "pure", although they're the minority
Do you recall anything about where those herds are, because I’ve only seen research showing that all treated herds have identifiable cattle DNA, i.e., https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-09828-z
I was told when I worked at Philmont Scout Ranch [1] that they had a pure herd.
Other than that, I know Steven Rinella listed a few pure herds in his (excellent) book [2] on the American Buffalo, but I'd have to dig it out to find them for you.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzyMrBUys90
[2] https://www.amazon.com/American-Buffalo-Search-Lost-Icon/dp/...
ETA: https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/wind-cave-bison-genetics.ht...
"Wind Cave and Yellowstone National Parks are the only two federal herds to have population sizes large enough for sufficient testing. Both herds show no evidence of cattle introgression."
So there are at least two
Yellowstone
Bison and beefalo are different animals. Beefalo can't be marketed as either bison meat or beef.
For a second I read it as a return to Illumos. Some GCC related story.
I’m mad we had a thriving heard in Florida and then they decided to sterilize them.
This is good to see. Also, I didn’t realize until now that Burlington was Kane and not DeKalb!
When you're walking around rural Illinois and you hear music start playing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72aSGvXeOTs
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.
For you, this is the day that Bison return to Illinois’s Kane County. For the bison, it’s Tuesday.
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