Fighting the borrow checker is something you do when you're learning Rust. After you learn how to design things that way in the first place, it's just there to keep you honest.
As someone who's only did a couple of small toy-projects in rust I was never annoyed by the borrow checker. I find it nothing but a small mental shift and I kinda like it.
What I _do_ find annoying though and I cannot wrap my head around are lifetimes. Every time I think I understand it, I end up getting it wrong.
Lifetimes are the input to the borrow checker, so it doesn't make much sense to say you have never been bothered by the borrow checker but you are bothered by lifetimes.
This can't possibly be guaranteed to work just by disabling the checker, can it? If Rust optimizes based on borrow-checker assumptions (which I understand it can and does) then wouldn't violating them be UB, unless you also mess with the compiler to disable those optimizations?
Correct, I was reading a very interesting blog post [1] on how the rust compiler will change the LLVM annotaions like sending noalias for mutable pointer. This changes a lot the generated machine code. Disabling the borrow checker won't enable those LLVM flags.
> This can't possibly be guaranteed to work just by disabling the checker, can it?
It works in the sense that the borrow checker stops bothering you and the compiler will compile your code. It will even work fine as long as you don't write code which invokes UB (which does include code which would not pass the borrow checker, as the borrow checker necessarily rejects valid programs in order to forbid all invalid programs).
> It will even work fine as long as you don't write code which invokes UB (which does include code which would not pass the borrow checker, as the borrow checker necessarily rejects valid programs in order to forbid all invalid programs).
To be clear, by "this" I meant "[allowing] code that would normally violate Rust's borrowing rules to compile and run successfully," which both of us seem to believe to be UB.
Not quite, there is code which fails borrow checking but is safe and sound.
That is part of why a number of people have been waiting for Polonius and / or the tree borrows model, most classic are relatively trivial cases of "check then update" which fail to borrow check but are obviously non-problematic e.g.
Though ultimately even if either or both efforts bear fruits they will still reject programs which are well formed: that is the halting problem, a compiler can either reject all invalid programs or accept all valid programs, but it can not do both, and the former is generally considered more valuable, so in order to reject all invalid programs compilers will necessarily reject some valid programs.
Yes. An analog would be uninitialized memory. The compiler is free to make optimizations that assume that uninitialized memory holds every value and no value simultaneously (because it is undefined behavior to ever read it).
In the following example, z is dereferenced one time and assigned to both x and y, but if z and x are aliased, then this is an invalid optimization.
If you write correct Rust code it'll work, the borrowck is just that, a check, if the teacher doesn't check your homework where you wrote that 10 + 5 = 15 it's still correct. If you write incorrect code where you break Rust's borrowing rules it'll have unbounded Undefined Behaviour, unlike the actual Rust where that'd be an error this thing will just give you broken garbage, exactly like a C++ compiler.
Evidently millions of people want broken garbage, Herb Sutter even wrote a piece celebrating how many more C++ programmers and projects there were last year, churning out yet more broken garbage, it's a metaphor for 2025 I guess.
Rust isn't a one true language, no one necessarily needs to learn it, and I'm sure your preffered language is excellent. C and C++ are critical languages with legitimate advantages and use cases. Don't learn Rust of you aren't interested.
But Rust, its community, and language flame wars are separate concerns. When I talk shop with other Rust people, we talk about our projects, not about hating C++.
You’re expressing the same attitude here, just in reverse. Some users not thinking highly of C++ doesn’t make Rust a worse or less interesting language.
So don't use it. Rust is not intended to be used by everyone. If you are happy using your current set of tools and find yourself productive with them then by all means be happy with it.
Well FWIW, the original poster's anti-C++ statements aside, removing the borrow checker does nothing except allow you to write thread-unsafe (or race condition-unsafe) code. Therefore, the only change this really makes is allowing you to write slightly more ergonomic code that could well break somewhere at some point in time unexpectedly.
KDE is a great desktop environment , but it's also notorious for being a buggy and unpolished DE [1]. It's good your experience wasn't like that, but it's certainly not how the software is generally perceived.
[1]: Of course, different versions have different levels of stability. Also, some of these bugs and problems wouldn't be prevented by using an alternative language such as Rust.
I’m sure some people could tiptoe through minefields daily for years, until they fail. Nobody is perfect at real or metaphorical minefields, and hubris is probably the only reason to scoff at people suggesting alternatives.
Did I write that I hated somebody? I don't think I wrote anything of the sort. I can't say my thoughts about Bjarne for example rise to hatred, nobody should have humoured him in the 1980s, but we're not talking about what happened when rich idiots humoured The Donald or something as serious as that - nobody died, we just got a lot of software written in a crap programming language, I've had worse Thursdays.
And although of course things could have been better they could also have been worse. C++ drinks too much OO kool aid, but hey it introduced lots of people to generic programming which is good.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you think that C++ programmers actually want to write "broken garbage", so when you say "millions of people want broken garbage" the implication is that a) they do write broken garbage, b) they're so stupid don't even know that is what they are doing. I can't really read else than in the same vein as an apartheid-era white South-African statement starting "all blacks ...", i.e., an insult to a large class of people simply for their membership in that class. Maybe that's not your intent, but that's how it reads to me, sorry.
I can't help how you feel about it, but what I see is people who supposedly "don't want" something to happen and yet take little or no concrete action to prevent it. When it comes to their memory safety problem WG21 talks about how they want to address the problem but won't take appropriate steps. Years of conference talks about safety, and C++ 26 is going to... encourage tool vendors to diagnose some common mistakes. Safe C++ was rejected, and indeed Herb had WG21 write a new "standing rule" which imagines into existence principles for the language that in effect forbid any such change.
Think Republican Senators offering thoughts and prayers after a school shooting, rather than Apartheid era white South Africans.
Considering how many people will defend C++ compilers bending over backwards to exploit some accidental undefined behaviour with "but it's fast though" then yeah, that's not an inaccurate assessment.
herb sutter and the c++ community as a whole have put a lot of energy into improving the language and reducing UB; this has been a primary focus of C++26. they are not encouraging people to “churn out more broken garbage”, they are encouraging people to write better code in the language they have spent years developing libraries and expertise in.
Yes, many or even most domains where C++ sees a large market share are domains with no other serious alternative. But this is an indictment of C++ and not praise. What it tells us is that when there are other viable options, C++ is rarely chosen.
The number of such domains has gone down over time, and will probably continue to do so.
even when there are alternatives, sometimes it makes sense to use a library like Qt in its native language with its native documentation rather than a binding - if you can do so safely
>Haskell (and OCaml etc) give you both straightjackets..
Haskell's thing with purity and IO does not feel like that. In fact Haskell does it right (IO type is reflected in type). And rust messed it up ("safety" does not show up in types).
You want a global mutable thing in Haskell? just use something like an `IORef` and that is it. It does not involve any complicated type magic. But mutations to it will only happen in IO, and thus will be reflected in types. That is how you do it. That is how it does not feel like a straight jacket.
Haskell as a language is tiny. But Rust is really huge, with endless behavior and expectation to keep in mind, for some some idea of safety that only matter for a small fraction of the programs.
And that I why I find that comment very funny. Always using rust is like always wearing something that constrains you greatly for some idea of "safety" even when it does not really matter. That is insane..
It does in rust. An `unsafe fn()` is a different type than a (implicitly safe by the lack of keyword) `fn()`.
The difference is that unsafe fn's can be encapsulated in safe wrappers, where as IO functions sort of fundamentally can't be encapsulated in non-IO wrappers. This makes the IO tagged type signatures viral throughout your program (and as a result annoying), while the safety tagged type signatures are things you only have to think about if you're touching the non-encapsulated unsafe code yourself.
>The difference is that unsafe fn's can be encapsulated in safe wrappers
This is the koolaid I am not willing to drink.
If you can add safety very carefully on top of unsafe stuff (without any help from compiler), why not just use `c` and add safety by just being very careful?
> IO tagged type signatures viral throughout your program (and as a result annoying)..
Well, that is what good type systems do. Carry information about the types "virally".
Anything short is a flawed system.
> If you can add safety very carefully on top of unsafe stuff (without any help from compiler), why not just use `c` and add safety by just being very careful?
There is help from the compiler - the compiler lets the safe code expose an interface that creates strict requirements about how it is being called with and interacted with. The C language isn't expressive enough to define the same safe interface and have the compiler check it.
You can absolutely write the unsafe part in C. Rust is as good at encapsulating C into a safe rust interface as it is at encapsulating unsafe-rust into a safe rust interface. Just about every non-embedded rust program depends on C code encapsulated in this manner.
> Well, that is what good type systems do. Carry information about the types "virally". Anything short is a flawed system.
Good type systems describe the interface, not every implementation detail. Virality is the consequence of implementation details showing up in the interface.
Good type systems minimize the amount of work needed to use them.
IO is arguably part of the interface, but without further description of what IO it's a pretty useless detail of the interface. Meanwhile exposing a viral detail like this as part of the type system results in lots of work. It's a tradeoff that I think is generally not worth it.
>the compiler lets the safe code expose an interface that creates strict requirements about how it is being called with and interacted with..
The compiler does not and cannot check if these strict requirements are enough for the intended "safety". Right? It is the judgement of the programmer.
And what is stopping a `c` function with such requirements to be wrapped in some code that actually checks these requirements are met? The only thing that the rust compiler enables is to include a feature to mark a specific function as unsafe.
In both cases there is zero help from the compiler to actually verify that the checks that are done on top are sufficient.
And if you want to mark a `c` function as unsafe, just follow some naming convention...
>but without further description of what IO it's a pretty useless detail of the interface..
Take a look at effect-system libraries which can actually encode "What IO" at the type level and make it available everywhere. It is a pretty basic and widely used thing.
> The compiler does not and cannot check if these strict requirements are enough for the intended "safety". Right? It is the judgement of the programmer.
Yes*. It's up to the programmer to check that the safe abstraction they create around unsafe code guarantees all the requirements the unsafe code needs are upheld. The point is that that's done once, and then all the safe code using that safe abstraction can't possibly fail to meet those requirements - or in other words any safety related bug is always in the relatively small amount of code that uses unsafe and builds those safe abstraction.
> And what is stopping a `c` function with such requirements to be wrapped in some code that [doesn't] actually checks these requirements are met?
Assuming my edit to your comment is correct - nothing. It's merely the case that any such bug would be in the small amount of clearly labelled (with the unsafe keyword) binding code instead of "anywhere".
> The only thing that the rust compiler enables is to include a feature to mark a specific function as unsafe.
No, the rust compiler has a lot more features than just a way to mark specific functions as unsafe. The borrow checker, and it's associated lifetime constraints, enforcing that variables that are moved out of (and aren't `Copy`) aren't used, is one obvious example.
Another example is marking how data can be used across threads with traits like `Send` and `Sync`. Another - when compared to C anyways - is simply having a visibility system so that you can create structs with fields that aren't directly accessible via other code (so you can control every single function that directly accesses them and maintain invariants in those functions).
> In both cases there is zero help from the compiler to actually verify that the checks that are done on top are sufficient.
Yes and no, "unsafe" in rust is synonymous with "the compiler isn't able to verify this for you". Typically rust docs do a pretty good job of enumerating exactly what the programmer must verify. There are tools that try to help the programmer do this, from simple things like being able to enable a lint that checks every time you wrote unsafe you left a comment saying why it's ok, and that you actually wrote something the compiler couldn't verify in the first place. To complex things like having a (very slow) interpreter that carefully checks that in at least one specific execution every required invariant is maintained (with the exception of some FFI stuff that it fails on as it is unable to see across language boundaries sufficiently well).
The rust ecosystem is very interested in tools that make it easier to write correct unsafe code. It's just rather fundamentally a hard problem.
* Technically there are very experimental proof systems that can check some cases these days. But I wouldn't say they are ready for prime time use yet.
I think that is because when you start learning Haskell, you are not typically told about state monads, `IORefs` and likes that enables safe mutability.
It might be because Monads could have a tad bit advanced type machinery. But IORefs are straightforward, but typically one does not come across it until a bit too late into their Haskell journey.
How are we still having the same trade off discussion being argued so black and white when reality has shown that both options are preferred by different groups.
Rust says that all incorrect programs (in terms of memory safety) are invalid but the trade is that some correct programs will also be marked as invalid because the compiler can't prove them correct.
C++ says that all correct programs are valid but the trade is that some incorrect programs are also valid.
You see the same trade being made with various type systems and people still debate about it but ultimately accept that they're both valid and not garbage.
>C++ says that all correct programs are valid but the trade is that some incorrect programs are also valid.
C++ does not say this, in fact no statically typed programming language says this, they all reject programs that could in principle be correct but get rejected because of some property of the type system.
You are trying to present a false dichotomy that simply does not exist and ignoring the many nuances and trade-offs that exist among these (and other) languages.
Nope. C++ really does deliberately require that compilers will in some cases emit a program which does... something even though what you wrote isn't a C++ program.
Yes, that's very stupid, but they did it with eyes open, it's not a mistake. In the C++ ISO document the words you're looking are roughly (exact phrasing varies from one clause to another) Ill-formed No Diagnostic Required (abbreviated as IFNDR).
What this means is that these programs are Ill-formed (not C++ programs) but they compile anyway (No diagnostic is required - a diagnostic would be an error or warning).
Why do this? Well because of Rice's Theorem. They want a lot of tricky semantic requirements for their language but Rice showed (back in like 1950) that all the non-trivial semantic requirements are Undecidable. So it's impossible for the compiler to correctly diagnose these for all cases. Now, you could (and Rust does) choose to say if we're not sure we'll reject the program. But C++ chose the exact opposite path.
For all its faults, and it has many (though Rust shares most of them), few programming languages have yielded more value than C++. Maybe only C and Java. Calling C++ software "garbage" is a bonkers exaggeration and a wildly distorted view of the state of software.
I've been thinking of writing a language with Rust's ergonomics but less of the memory safety stuff. I prefer using no dynamic allocations, in which case the only memory safety feature I need is leaking references to locals into outer scopes. As for the thread safety stuff, most of my stuff is single-threaded.
I love how everything is an expression with a value. And match expressions are quite nice, especially with the option type. I really miss those when working in javascript.
> In addition to meeting the Open Source Definition, the following standards apply to new licenses:
> (...) The license does not have terms that structurally put the licensor in a more favored position than any licensee.
https://opensource.org/licenses/review-process
That's a funfact I learned from IP lawyer when discussing possibility of open-source but otherwise LLVM-extempt license. If there is extemption (even in LLM) such license is most likely OSI-incompatible.
What are protental issues with compiler, by just disabling borrow checker? If I recall correctly some compiler optimisations for rust can not be done in C/C++ because of restrictions implied by borrow checker.
The crazy part about this is that (auto) vectorization in Rust looks something like this: iter.chunks(32).map(vectorized)
Where the vectorized function checks if the chunk has length 32, if yes run the algorithm, else run the algorithm.
The compiler knows that the chunk has a fixed size at compile time in the first block, which means it can now attempt to vectorize the algorithm with a SIMD size of 32. The else block handles the scalar case, where the chunk is smaller than 32.
The borrow checker does not deal with ownership, which is what rust’s memory management leverages. The borrow checker validates that borrows (references) are valid aka that they don’t outlive their sources and that exclusive borrows don’t overlap.
The borrow checker does not influence codegen at all.
It would be the same as in any language with manual memory management, you'd simply get a dangling pointer access. The 'move-by-default' semantics of Rust just makes this a lot trickier than in a 'copy-by-default' language though.
It's actually interesting to me that the Rust borrow checker can 'simply' be disabled (e.g. no language- or stdlib-features really depending on the borrow checker pass) - not that it's very useful in practice though.
If the only benefit of using Rust was to ensure the tech debt cheaters have a bad time each time they try to take a shortcut that ruins things for everyone, that would be enough of a benefit to use Rust.
To see them squirm trying to find the sloppy way of doing things and finding a locked door is just amazing.
The unsafe keyword doesn't disable the borrow checker... it lets you interact with different pointer types that aren't borrow checked, but if you're using the normal reference types in rust the same guardrails are still in place.
That's not the spirit Rust wants to have. You can already disable borrow checker selectively by using "raw" pointers in places where you think you know better, and this is used very commonly. Every String in Rust has such raw pointer inside.
It doesn't make much sense to globally relax restrictions of Rust's references to be like C/C++ pointers, because the reference types imply a set of guarantees: must be non-null (affects struct layout), always initialized, and have strict shared/immutable vs exclusive access distinction. If you relax these guarantees, you'll break existing code that relies on having them, and make the `--yolo` flag code incompatible with the rest. OTOH if you don't remove them, then you still have almost all of borrow checker's restrictions with none of the help of upholding them. It'd be like a flag that disables the sign bit of signed integers. It just makes an existing type mean something else.
> you need the borrow checker guarantees to implement downstream compilation steps.
You don't technically. The borrow checker doesn't effect the semantics of the program (like, for example, type inference does) and the rest of the compiler doesn't need to (and in fact, doesn't) use its analysis to figure out how to compile the code.
The downstream compiler does assume that the code followed the rules for accessing references - i.e. didn't violating aliasing rules. The borrow checker guarantees this, but it's fundamentally a conservative check. It rejects programs it can't guarantee are correct, and rice's theorem proves that there are always correct programs that it can't guarantee are correct.
That said if you just treat rust-references like C-pointers you will run into issues. The aliasing rules for rust references are stricter. Also not fully agreed upon yet - the currently closest to accepted definition is in the "tree borrows" paper but it has yet to be adopted as the official one by the rust team.
Is rust simple aesthetics to you? Why use rust, or any language at all really, at all then? The whole point of formal languages is to point a gun at the people who refuse to be adults.
If we can't have this, C itself offers zero benefit over assembly.
I think it's more in the spirit of playfulness, like in "don't take yourself too seriously". It's why people want to mod Minecraft and Doom for example.
Because it's fun.
I can totally understand why you wouldn't want to do this though - the plethora of incompatible lisp dialects come to mind. That's why I said it was controversial.
I'm the author of this repo. I see some really angry comments, some of them even personal. Obviously I didn't think that just by tinkering with a compiler, I'd get personally attacked, but anyway, fair enough.
For those of you confused: yes, this started as a satirical project with the corroded lib. Then I thought "why not just remove the borrow checker?" without any real motivation. Then I just went ahead and did it. To my surprise, it was really simple and easy. I thought it would be heavily tangled into the rustc compiler, but once I figured out where the error emitter is, it was pretty straightforward.
I'm not sure about my long-term goals, but besides the joke, I genuinely think for debugging and prototyping purposes, I'd like the borrow checker to shut up. I'm the kind of guy that prints everything while debugging and prototyping. Maybe you're using a debugger, okay, but I don't. I don't like debuggers. It's just more convenient for me. So what constantly happens is I run into issues like: does this implement Debug? Can I print this after it moved? The borrow checker won't let me access this because of some other borrow. Stuff like that.
Another point is, as you guys are well aware, the borrow checker will reject some valid programs in order to never pass any invalid program. What if I'm sure about what I'm doing and I don't want that check to run?
In the repo there's a doubly linked list example. Without the borrow checker it's fairly simple and easy to implement. With it, you know how complicated and ugly it gets.
Anyway, have a good new year, and don't get angry over compilers, you know.
> Then I thought "why not just remove the borrow checker?" without any real motivation.
Reminds me of a chemistry kit I had as a kid. None of this tame, safe stuff you can buy these days. Mine was a gift from my dad and I never thought of asking him where he dug it up, but it had stuff like pure sulfuric acid in it.
One day, when I was done with all of the experiments I had planned to do, I decided to mix a few things and heat them up, just for fun, without any real motivation other than "let's see what happens".
Let's just say I was lucky we only had to replace some of the clothes my mom had left out for me to put away. ;)
> Another point is, as you guys are well aware, the borrow checker will reject some valid programs in order to never pass any invalid program. What if I'm sure about what I'm doing and I don't want that check to run?
Then you do it using the "unsafe" keyword, and you think long and hard about how to design and structure the code so that the unsafe code is small in scope, surface, and blast radius.
That's precisely what unsafe code is for: to get around the borrow checker and assert you know what you're doing. Of course, if you're wrong, that means your program will blow up, but at least you know that the culprit is hiding in one of those unsafe areas, rather than literally anywhere in the whole codebase.
Alternately, you can switch to a language with a different ethos.
The ethos of Rust is caring for memory safety so much that you willingly limit yourself in terms of what kind of code you write and you only step out of those limits reluctantly and with great care. That's something that resonates with a lot of people and Rust has been built on top of that for years.
If you suddenly take the product of those years of hard work, strip out the foundation it has been built on, and unironically offer it as a good idea, a lot of people won't like it and will tell you so. Mind, I'm not excusing the personal attacks, I'm just explaining the reaction.
I think there is probably a way to do what you're doing with unsafe. You could write a library that copies handles and can dump potentially freed memory afterwards.
Some kind of cargo plugin that transforms all references in the project into pointers and casts prior to feeding to rustc would probably be the best practice and highly maintainable route I'd go. like "cargo expand" but with a fancy catchier name that encourages new users to rely on it. "cargo autofix" might work
I would actually enjoy that for certain small projects. Rust without the borrow checker is a very elegant language. The borrow checker is great, of course, but it can be a pain to deal with. So, for small projects it would be nice to be able to disable it.
Instead of disabling the borrow checker what should be possible is to promote borrows to Rc/Arc as needed. I would want to restrict this mode to one where it can only work locally, never publishable to crates.io. It would be particularly useful when running tests, then instead of a compile error you can also get a runtime error with better information about the cases the borrow checker was actually encountering.
> The rust compiler thinks it knows better than you. It won't let you have two pointers to the same thing. It treats you like a mass of incompetence that can't be trusted with a pointer.
It does seem like satire. The very first example is:
fn main() {
let a = String::from("hello");
let b = a;
println!("{a}"); // Works! Prints: hello
}
This is not “I have correct code but Rust can’t tell it’s correct.” This is “wow, this code is intentionally outrageously wrong, obviously dereferences a pointer that is invalid, and happens to work anyway.”
In rust you don’t have a garbage collector and you don’t manually deallocate - if the compiler is not certain of who drops memory and when, what happens with those ambiguous drops ?
In other words, are the silenced errors guaranteed to be memory leaks/use after frees?
The borrow checker doesn't decide when things are dropped. It only checks reference uses and doesn't generate any code. This will work exactly the same as long as your program doesn't violate any borrowing rules.
No, I get that from an architectural perspective they are separate processes. The point is, unlike in other languages, the compiler is developed assuming the input has been borrow checked, right? So it is surprising to me that it doesn’t blow up somewhere when that invariant doesn’t hold.
In a correct program, the borrow checker has no effect.
Languages like C compile code with the understanding that if the compiler can't prove the code is incorrect, it'll assume it's correct. Rust compiles with the expectation that unless the compiler can prove the code correct (according to the language rules), it won't compile it. In C, all programs that only perform defined behaviour are valid, but many programs which exhibit undefined behaviour are also valid. In safe Rust, all programs which exhibit undefined behaviour are invalid. But as a trade-off, many programs which would actually execute perfectly well are also considered invalid.
In both cases, once you get past the layers that check stuff, you may normally assume that whatever you have has already been shown to be OK and you probably don't have enough information to re-check while compiling. It might blow up at runtime, it might not.
> So it is surprising to me that it doesn’t blow up somewhere when that invariant doesn’t hold.
The final program may be broken in various manners because you don't respect the language's prescribed semantics, in about the same way they do in C and C++. From the compiler's perspective the borrow checker validates that rules it assumes are upheld are actually upheld.
mrustc already compiles rust code without having a borrow checker (well IIRC recent-ish versions of mrustc have some borrow checking bits, but for the most part it still assumes that somebody else has done all the borrow checking).
The compiler has deep assumptions about exclusive ownership and moves, which affects destructors and deallocation of objects.
It doesn't actually depend on the borrow checker. All lifetime labels are discarded after being checked. Code generation has no idea about borrow checking. Once the code is checked, it is compiled just like C or C++ would, just assuming the code is valid and doesn't use dangling pointers.
Borrow checker doesn't affect program behavior. It either stops compilation or does nothing at all. It's like an external static analysis tool.
The silenced errors aren't guaranteed to be memory leaks or use after frees. There are some situations where memory is being handled properly, but the borrow checker isn't able to prove it.
One example might be a tree-like struct where a parent and child have references to each other. Even if everything is cleaned up properly, the borrow checker has no way to know that when the struct is created. Solving it requires unsafe at some point, usually through something like RefCell.
> In other words, are the silenced errors guaranteed to be memory leaks/use after frees?
No, not at all. The examples at the beginning of the article show this - they'll execute correctly. The borrow checker is quite conservative, and rules out all sorts of code that won't (normally!) cause runtime errors.
It's fairly easy to see this if you think about the core of Rust's ownership model: every value in Rust has a single owner. The compiler enforces that for any value, there's either one mutable reference or any number of immutable references to it at a time.
This model has the advantage of being simple, easy to reason about, and ruling out large classes of errors. But like most static checks, including e.g. traditional type checks, it also rules out a great deal of otherwise valid code.
It's easy to think of examples in which you have multiple mutable references to a value that won't cause errors. Aside from trivial examples like in the article, in C-like languages you can have many concurrent mutable references to the same mutable value. You can safely (with some caveats) manage access to it via locks, protocols, documentation, or just being careful. Rust with the borrow checker simply doesn't allow multiple concurrent mutable references to the same value to exist. Rust without the borrow checker, as in the article, would allow this.
I am wondering whether this would actually be a helpful compile option in upstream rustc for quick prototyping. I don't want prod code to use this, but if I want to try things out during development, this could substantially shorten the dev cycle.
After a while, you just don't write code that would cause substantial borrow-checker problems, even when prototyping. I'd say the slow compile times are much more of an impediment for a practicing Rust prototyper than the borrow checker.
Sometimes, you just need to know if an idea will even work or what it would look like. If you have to refactor half the codebase (true story for me once), it makes the change a much harder sell without showing some benefits. IE, it keeps you from discovering better optimizations because you have to pay the costs upfront.
Can't you usually just throw some quick referenced counted cells in there, to make the borrow checker happy enough for a prototype without refactoring the whole code base?
In Rust, it's a lot easier to refactor half the codebase than it would be in another language. Once you're done fighting the compiler, you're usually done! instead of NEVER being sure if you did enough testing.
I wish I could make the borrow checker give warnings not errors.
It would make exploration so much easier, so I don’t have to fight the borrow checker until I know how to build what I want.
This isn’t actually unsafe unless shared across threads right? Maybe the borrow checker needs to be more nuanced to differentiate this rather then outright banning it all together. It would increase the logic of the borrow checker by a lot though.
Unsafe isn't so unsafe that it disables the borrow checker!
The two main things the compiler allows in an unsafe block but not elsewhere are calling other code marked "unsafe" and dereferencing raw pointers. The net result is that safe code running in a system that's not exhibiting undefined behaviour is defined to continue to not exhibit undefined behaviour, but the compiler is unable in general to prove that an unsafe block won't trigger undefined behaviour.
You can side-step the borrow checker by using pointers instead of references, but using that power to construct an invalid reference is undefined behaviour.
The borrow checker still applies in unsafe { } blocks. What it means (iirc) is that you can do pointer/memory stuff that would otherwise not be allowed. But you still fully adhere to Rust semantics
I'm assuming it's a meme project. In case it isn't, what's the point? Just trying to understand.
Isn't rust's one of the main selling point is the barrow checker right?
Also how's the memory is handled? I know it'll drop every thing once it's out of scope but it seems you can make copies as much as you want. Looking at the loop example, I feel like this introduces memory leaks & undefined behavior.
Tangentially related: the opposite, Rust's borrow checker sans the compiler, is actually very useful. As far as I understand, the borrow checker is a significant part of the work of writing a Rust compiler. Therefore, having the official borrow checker available as a standalone program can make alternative compilers (e.g. for exotic hardware) feasible faster, because they won't need a borrow checker of their own from the get-go.
Why would this matter? The borrowck is (a) not needed during bring-up because as its name suggests it is merely a check, so going without it just means you can write nonsense and then unbounded undefined behaviour results, but (b) written entirely in Rust so you can just compile it with the rest of this "exotic hardware" Rust compiler you've built.
To me it feels like rust is barely readable sometimes. When I read some rust cost, I am often incapable to guess what it does, so it does not feel intuitive.
I wish they made something simpler. At least C and C++ have a low barrier of entry and any beginner can write code.
I don't think the borrow checker forced rust to be such a complicated language.
Imo the worst thing about starting out with C++ (which is much better with Rust), is the lack of credible package management/build system that allows you to just install packages.
This used to be even more true previously than today. Nowadays, there's stuff like
vcpkg, and tons of resources, but I still wouldn't call it straightforward compared to something like nuget or cargo.
It tooke me more time to figure out CMake than entire other programming languages.
It does really help, in modern languages where they provide tools in the box and the ecosystem just accepts those as the default† tools, to have the default be that when you make a new project it just works, often by having it print "Hello, World!" or something else simple but definitive as proof we made a program.
† Default means just that, neither Rust's own compiler nor the Linux kernel need the cargo tooling, but these projects both have actual toolsmiths to maintain their build infrastructure and your toy program does not. There should be a default which Just Works at this small scale.
There's a weird cognitive bias where somehow people justify "I compiled this Hello World C++ project " as "C++ is easy" and yet "I wasn't able to understand how this optimized linear algebra library works" gets classed as "Rust is hard".
In reality it matters what you already know, and whether you want to understand deeply or are just interested in enough surface understanding to write software. There's a reason C++ has an entire book about its many, many types of initialization for example.
Yes, Rust has a pretty steep learning curve. If you're not writing very low level stuff and don't need to squeeze out every last bit of performance, there are many other, simpler languages to choose from.
I think we may safely assume that Rust's designers are smart people that have made every effort to keep Rust as simple as it can be, given its intended use.
If you're not writing very low level stuff and don't need to squeeze out every last bit of performance, Rust code can be very simple and easy to understand as well.
> At least C and C++ have a low barrier of entry and any beginner can write code.
C/C++ is great at giving that false sense of competence. Then suddenly you're getting a segfault, and you'll never determine why with beginner knowledge, since the crash-line and the mistake-line aren't even in the same zipcode (and or same Git changeset).
Rust forces you to not "skip" knowledge steps. If you have a gap in your knowledge/understanding the compiler will call you out immediately. C/C++ will happily let your dangerously bad code compile and kinda-run, until it doesn't.
I'm not anti-C/C++, I've actually written tons. I love C in particular. But saying that they're beginner-friendly feels wrong, a lot of people quit the language because "random stuff" starts to go wrong, and they lack the knowledge to determine why.
Yep. I've heard it said that Rust forces you to experience all the pain up front. C will happily compile very broken code.
One of my formative memories learning C came after I wrote a function which accidentally returned a pointer to a variable on the stack. It took me about a week to track that bug down. I found it eventually - and then realised the compiler had been warning me about it the whole time. I'd just been ignoring the warnings "while I got my code working". Ugh. The rust borrow checker wouldn't let you even compile code like that.
If you're going to be working in a programming language for years or even decades, I think the extra complexity (and extra difficulty while learning) is an investment that will pay off. But I'd be very happy for rust to stay a niche language for systems software. C#, Go, Typescript and Swift seem like great choices for making webpages and apps.
I think the barrier to entry with Rust is lower than C++. Like was way lower... And I've been writing C++ for way long than Rust, so I'm probably a bit biased
I can just second that. Maybe someone (or some LLM) can write a nice superset of Rust that is more readable - so the barrier of entry drops significantly and we can all write better, more efficient and memory-safe code!
> To me it feels like rust is barely readable sometimes. When I read some rust cost, I am often incapable to guess what it does, so it does not feel intuitive.
I feel torn with this sentiment.
On one hand, I totally agree. Rust's "foreign" ideas (borrowck, lifetimes, match expressions, traits, etc) make it harder to learn because there's a bunch of new concepts that nobody has really worked with before. Some of this stuff - lifetimes and borrows especially - really demand a lot of imagination on behalf of the programmer to be able to understand what's actually going on. The amount of thinking I do per shipped line of code seems higher for rust than it does for languages like Go, Typescript and C#. And sometimes C.
On the other hand, I learned C about 30 years ago. Not only have I forgotten how hard it was to learn, but I had the brain of a teenager at the time. And now I'm in my (early) 40s. I'm scared that some of the struggle I went through learning rust came because my brain is old now, and I've forgotten what its like to be out of my depth with a programming language. Learning rust requires shaking up some old neurons. And that's really good for us, but it sucks.
In reality, I think its a bit of both. I've been using rust a lot for about 3-4 years now. Its gotten way easier. But I still prototype a fair bit of algorithmic code in typescript first because I find TS makes it easier to iterate. That implies rust is actually more complex. But, some people pick rust as their first language and it seems to work out fine? I'm not sure.
> I don't think the borrow checker forced rust to be such a complicated language.
Which parts of rust seem complicated? I've found a lot of the things I struggled with at first got a lot easier with familiarity. I love traits and match expressions. I love rust's implementation of generics. I love most things about cargo and the module system. But also, some parts of rust annoy me a lot more now, a few years in.
I disagree with your comment. I think the main source of complexity in rust comes from lifetimes - which are required by the borrow checker. For example, its not obvious when you need to put lifetimes in explicitly and when you can elide them. When does the borrow checker understand my code? (Eg, can you mutably borrow two different elements in an array at the same time?). I also still don't really understand Higher-Rank Trait Bounds.
I also still find Pin really confusing. In general I think async and Futures in rust have some big design flaws. It also really bothers me that there's a class of data types that the compiler can generate and use, which are impossible to name in the language. And some of the rules around derive and traits are annoying and silly. Eg derive(Clone) on a generic struct adds the constraint T: Clone, which is straight out wrong. And rust needs a better answer to the orphan rule.
But in general, if you take out the borrow checker, I find rust to be simpler and easier to read than most C++. There's no headers. No exceptions. No wild template nonsense. And there's generally way less weird magic going on. Eg, Foo(bar); could mean about 8 different things in C++. Rust isn't like that. Rust is simple enough you can just read the standard library, even as a beginner, and its great. C++'s STL is a disaster to read.
Rust is definitely more complex than C. But you do get some lovely features for that extra cognitive overhead. Whether or not thats worth it is up to you. In general - and I've been saying this for years - I feel like the language I really want is rust 2. I can't wait for someone to take rust's best ideas and refine them into a simpler language.
I feel exactly the same - C++ might be a much more complex and arcane language when you consider its entire feature set, and all the syntactic machinery (I figured out by looking at STL or Boost code, just how much of C++ I don't know or understand), you can choose to not engage with most of the language. Hell, even stuff like unique_ptr is optional when you're just starting out.
But with Rust, you have to understand almost all of the language very intimately to be a productive programmer, and Rust is not that great at hiding complexity, as in fairly innocious decisions often have far-reaching consequences down the line.
> you have to understand almost all of the language very intimately to be a productive programmer,
I've seen absolute Rust noobs write production code in Rust, I have no idea where did you get that notion from. Most of the apps I've written or I've worked with don't even need to use explicit lifetimes at all. If you don't need absolute performance with almost none memory allocations, it's honestly not rocket science. Even more so if you're writing web backends. Then the code doesn't really differ that much from Go.
I've shipped a lot of Rust software without the understanding or even attempting to learn a lot of the language. There is plenty of things in core libraries around traits that I have no idea how they work or really care.
Could you please not post this sort of snarky-generic-meta comment? They attract upvotes and then stick at the top of the thread, choking out actually interesting discussion. (That's where this one was, but I'm going to mark it off topic and downweight it now.)
I completely understand your frustration about how common shallow-indignant comments are. But it doesn't help to post shallow-indignant or snarky comments of your own about it - it just produces even more of the same, or worse.
The way to combat shallow-indignant, predictable, tedious, etc., threads is to find something that you're genuinely curious and open about, and post from that place instead.
Honestly, I thought it was serious because I’ve seen people do things exactly like this, just in different languages.
By “this” I mean “spend all their time fighting against the language/framework because they don’t like it, rather than just picking a different language.”
Those are excellent reasons but then you shouldn’t fight the language, you should go with the language/framework conventions as much as possible. Trying to fight the language design will only lead to buggy, hard to understand code, so either suck it up or get a different job.
EDIT: That last sentence is a bit harsher than I intended. I’m trying to convey the importance of professionalism in our work and remembering the experience of working with people who couldn’t do this brought back some bad memories!
Don't worry, they probably wouldn't want to work with you either.
Some programmers think and care a lot about software correctness in a kind of mathematical way. Others just want to ship features and enjoy their lives. Both approaches are fine. They just don't necessarily mix super well.
Some people like to tell you that diverse teams work better. Years ago I worked with someone who had a PhD in psychometrics. She said that's kind of a lie. If you actually look at the research it shows something more interesting. She said the research shows that having a diverse set of backgrounds makes a team perform better. But having a diverse set of values makes a team perform worse. It makes sense. If one person on the team wants to vibe code and someone else wants to make every line of code perfect, you're all in for a bad time.
There is a third kind. Those who want to have a lot of fun by using their imagination to come up with interesting ways build something, but in rust, the borrow checker often won't have any of it.
In rust you have to learn and internalize lot of the non-intutive borrow checker reasoning to remain sane. If you remember to spend a fraction of that effort to remember the "unsafe" things you could end up doing in C, then I think most people would be fine.
But rust enforces it, which is good for a small fraction of all software that is being written. But "Rust for everything!?"..Give me a fucking break!
This persona is the heart and soul of the "weirdly emotional about languages" archetype along with ruby fanatics. Look, y'all have notable and significant value, but only in very specific and unusual circumstances
Amazing, this is like the bizarro version of what I'd want. Like someone said 'hey, there's this kinda crappy language with a really cool feature, let's not make a great language with that feature, but instead take the crappy language and remove the cool feature which is the only thing keeping it from being trash'. Okay, sure, tagged unions, closures, and hygienic macros are nice; but there are plenty of other languages with the first two and when your syntax is atrocious even the most hygienic macro is going to look like something that crawled out of the sewer at R'lyeh.
It’s technically possible to do, just very complicated and hard. Quite often, prohibitively so.
Still, the main idea is despite the input files are arbitrarily large, you don’t need an entire file in memory because displays aren’t remotely large enough to render a megabyte of text. Technically, you can only load a visible portion of the input file, and stream from/to disk when user scrolls. Furthermore, if you own the file format, you can design it in a way which allowing editing without overwriting the entire file: mark deleted portions without moving subsequent content, write inserts to the end of files, maybe organize the file as a B+ tree, etc.
That’s how software like Word 97 supported editing of documents much larger than available memory. As you can imagine, the complexity of such file format, and the software handling them, was overwhelming. Which is why software developers stopped doing things like that as soon as computers gained enough memory to keep entire documents, and instead serialize them into sane formats like zipped XMLs in case of modern MS office.
> What if you don't know ahead of time how big that monitor is that you are displaying stuff on?
Use a reasonable upper estimate?
> ad-hoc re-implementation of virtual memory?
If you rely on actual virtual memory instead of specially designed file format, saving large files will become prohibitively slow. On each save you have to stream the entire document from page file to actual memory, serialize the document, produce the entire file, then replace. And then when resuming editing after the save, you probably have to load the visible portion back from disk.
Fighting the borrow checker is something you do when you're learning Rust. After you learn how to design things that way in the first place, it's just there to keep you honest.
To be fair, working on the Rust compiler is also something to do when you're learning Rust. I guess this person is killing two birds with one stone.
way too many people in this thread are taking this project seriously
As someone who's only did a couple of small toy-projects in rust I was never annoyed by the borrow checker. I find it nothing but a small mental shift and I kinda like it.
What I _do_ find annoying though and I cannot wrap my head around are lifetimes. Every time I think I understand it, I end up getting it wrong.
Lifetimes are the input to the borrow checker, so it doesn't make much sense to say you have never been bothered by the borrow checker but you are bothered by lifetimes.
This can't possibly be guaranteed to work just by disabling the checker, can it? If Rust optimizes based on borrow-checker assumptions (which I understand it can and does) then wouldn't violating them be UB, unless you also mess with the compiler to disable those optimizations?
Correct, I was reading a very interesting blog post [1] on how the rust compiler will change the LLVM annotaions like sending noalias for mutable pointer. This changes a lot the generated machine code. Disabling the borrow checker won't enable those LLVM flags.
[1] https://lukefleed.xyz/posts/who-owns-the-memory-pt1/
> This can't possibly be guaranteed to work just by disabling the checker, can it?
It works in the sense that the borrow checker stops bothering you and the compiler will compile your code. It will even work fine as long as you don't write code which invokes UB (which does include code which would not pass the borrow checker, as the borrow checker necessarily rejects valid programs in order to forbid all invalid programs).
> It will even work fine as long as you don't write code which invokes UB (which does include code which would not pass the borrow checker, as the borrow checker necessarily rejects valid programs in order to forbid all invalid programs).
To be clear, by "this" I meant "[allowing] code that would normally violate Rust's borrowing rules to compile and run successfully," which both of us seem to believe to be UB.
Not quite, there is code which fails borrow checking but is safe and sound.
That is part of why a number of people have been waiting for Polonius and / or the tree borrows model, most classic are relatively trivial cases of "check then update" which fail to borrow check but are obviously non-problematic e.g.
Though ultimately even if either or both efforts bear fruits they will still reject programs which are well formed: that is the halting problem, a compiler can either reject all invalid programs or accept all valid programs, but it can not do both, and the former is generally considered more valuable, so in order to reject all invalid programs compilers will necessarily reject some valid programs.Yes. An analog would be uninitialized memory. The compiler is free to make optimizations that assume that uninitialized memory holds every value and no value simultaneously (because it is undefined behavior to ever read it).
In the following example, z is dereferenced one time and assigned to both x and y, but if z and x are aliased, then this is an invalid optimization.
https://rust.godbolt.org/z/Mc6fvTzPG> If Rust optimizes based on borrow-checker assumptions
This is a binary assumption that you can understand to evaluate to "true" in the absence of a borrow checker. If it is "false" it halts the compiler
If you write correct Rust code it'll work, the borrowck is just that, a check, if the teacher doesn't check your homework where you wrote that 10 + 5 = 15 it's still correct. If you write incorrect code where you break Rust's borrowing rules it'll have unbounded Undefined Behaviour, unlike the actual Rust where that'd be an error this thing will just give you broken garbage, exactly like a C++ compiler.
Evidently millions of people want broken garbage, Herb Sutter even wrote a piece celebrating how many more C++ programmers and projects there were last year, churning out yet more broken garbage, it's a metaphor for 2025 I guess.
The attitude expressed here and that tends to surface in any Rust discussion is the reason I completely lost interest in the language.
Rust isn't a one true language, no one necessarily needs to learn it, and I'm sure your preffered language is excellent. C and C++ are critical languages with legitimate advantages and use cases. Don't learn Rust of you aren't interested.
But Rust, its community, and language flame wars are separate concerns. When I talk shop with other Rust people, we talk about our projects, not about hating C++.
You’re expressing the same attitude here, just in reverse. Some users not thinking highly of C++ doesn’t make Rust a worse or less interesting language.
So don't use it. Rust is not intended to be used by everyone. If you are happy using your current set of tools and find yourself productive with them then by all means be happy with it.
I have been using kde for years now without a single problem. Calling cpp garbage sounds wrong.
Well FWIW, the original poster's anti-C++ statements aside, removing the borrow checker does nothing except allow you to write thread-unsafe (or race condition-unsafe) code. Therefore, the only change this really makes is allowing you to write slightly more ergonomic code that could well break somewhere at some point in time unexpectedly.
KDE is a great desktop environment , but it's also notorious for being a buggy and unpolished DE [1]. It's good your experience wasn't like that, but it's certainly not how the software is generally perceived.
[1]: Of course, different versions have different levels of stability. Also, some of these bugs and problems wouldn't be prevented by using an alternative language such as Rust.
People who can't do something, sometimes assume nobody else possibly could.
I’m sure some people could tiptoe through minefields daily for years, until they fail. Nobody is perfect at real or metaphorical minefields, and hubris is probably the only reason to scoff at people suggesting alternatives.
It is possible to like something without hating people who like something else, can't people just live and let live?
Did I write that I hated somebody? I don't think I wrote anything of the sort. I can't say my thoughts about Bjarne for example rise to hatred, nobody should have humoured him in the 1980s, but we're not talking about what happened when rich idiots humoured The Donald or something as serious as that - nobody died, we just got a lot of software written in a crap programming language, I've had worse Thursdays.
And although of course things could have been better they could also have been worse. C++ drinks too much OO kool aid, but hey it introduced lots of people to generic programming which is good.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you think that C++ programmers actually want to write "broken garbage", so when you say "millions of people want broken garbage" the implication is that a) they do write broken garbage, b) they're so stupid don't even know that is what they are doing. I can't really read else than in the same vein as an apartheid-era white South-African statement starting "all blacks ...", i.e., an insult to a large class of people simply for their membership in that class. Maybe that's not your intent, but that's how it reads to me, sorry.
I can't help how you feel about it, but what I see is people who supposedly "don't want" something to happen and yet take little or no concrete action to prevent it. When it comes to their memory safety problem WG21 talks about how they want to address the problem but won't take appropriate steps. Years of conference talks about safety, and C++ 26 is going to... encourage tool vendors to diagnose some common mistakes. Safe C++ was rejected, and indeed Herb had WG21 write a new "standing rule" which imagines into existence principles for the language that in effect forbid any such change.
Think Republican Senators offering thoughts and prayers after a school shooting, rather than Apartheid era white South Africans.
Considering how many people will defend C++ compilers bending over backwards to exploit some accidental undefined behaviour with "but it's fast though" then yeah, that's not an inaccurate assessment.
herb sutter and the c++ community as a whole have put a lot of energy into improving the language and reducing UB; this has been a primary focus of C++26. they are not encouraging people to “churn out more broken garbage”, they are encouraging people to write better code in the language they have spent years developing libraries and expertise in.
And for which there's often no serious alternative to in many domains anyway.
Yes, many or even most domains where C++ sees a large market share are domains with no other serious alternative. But this is an indictment of C++ and not praise. What it tells us is that when there are other viable options, C++ is rarely chosen.
The number of such domains has gone down over time, and will probably continue to do so.
even when there are alternatives, sometimes it makes sense to use a library like Qt in its native language with its native documentation rather than a binding - if you can do so safely
People don't want garbage. But in any case, they don't want straightjackets like the borrow checker.
Hence, they use GC'd languages like Go whenever they can.
Straightjackets can be very useful.
Haskell (and OCaml etc) give you both straightjackets and a garbage collector. Straightjackets and GC are very compatible.
Compared to C, which has neither straightjackets nor a GC (at least not by default).
>Haskell (and OCaml etc) give you both straightjackets..
Haskell's thing with purity and IO does not feel like that. In fact Haskell does it right (IO type is reflected in type). And rust messed it up ("safety" does not show up in types).
You want a global mutable thing in Haskell? just use something like an `IORef` and that is it. It does not involve any complicated type magic. But mutations to it will only happen in IO, and thus will be reflected in types. That is how you do it. That is how it does not feel like a straight jacket.
Haskell as a language is tiny. But Rust is really huge, with endless behavior and expectation to keep in mind, for some some idea of safety that only matter for a small fraction of the programs.
And that I why I find that comment very funny. Always using rust is like always wearing something that constrains you greatly for some idea of "safety" even when it does not really matter. That is insane..
> "safety" does not show up in types
It does in rust. An `unsafe fn()` is a different type than a (implicitly safe by the lack of keyword) `fn()`.
The difference is that unsafe fn's can be encapsulated in safe wrappers, where as IO functions sort of fundamentally can't be encapsulated in non-IO wrappers. This makes the IO tagged type signatures viral throughout your program (and as a result annoying), while the safety tagged type signatures are things you only have to think about if you're touching the non-encapsulated unsafe code yourself.
>The difference is that unsafe fn's can be encapsulated in safe wrappers
This is the koolaid I am not willing to drink.
If you can add safety very carefully on top of unsafe stuff (without any help from compiler), why not just use `c` and add safety by just being very careful?
> IO tagged type signatures viral throughout your program (and as a result annoying)..
Well, that is what good type systems do. Carry information about the types "virally". Anything short is a flawed system.
> This is the koolaid I am not willing to drink.
> If you can add safety very carefully on top of unsafe stuff (without any help from compiler), why not just use `c` and add safety by just being very careful?
There is help from the compiler - the compiler lets the safe code expose an interface that creates strict requirements about how it is being called with and interacted with. The C language isn't expressive enough to define the same safe interface and have the compiler check it.
You can absolutely write the unsafe part in C. Rust is as good at encapsulating C into a safe rust interface as it is at encapsulating unsafe-rust into a safe rust interface. Just about every non-embedded rust program depends on C code encapsulated in this manner.
> Well, that is what good type systems do. Carry information about the types "virally". Anything short is a flawed system.
Good type systems describe the interface, not every implementation detail. Virality is the consequence of implementation details showing up in the interface.
Good type systems minimize the amount of work needed to use them.
IO is arguably part of the interface, but without further description of what IO it's a pretty useless detail of the interface. Meanwhile exposing a viral detail like this as part of the type system results in lots of work. It's a tradeoff that I think is generally not worth it.
>the compiler lets the safe code expose an interface that creates strict requirements about how it is being called with and interacted with..
The compiler does not and cannot check if these strict requirements are enough for the intended "safety". Right? It is the judgement of the programmer.
And what is stopping a `c` function with such requirements to be wrapped in some code that actually checks these requirements are met? The only thing that the rust compiler enables is to include a feature to mark a specific function as unsafe.
In both cases there is zero help from the compiler to actually verify that the checks that are done on top are sufficient.
And if you want to mark a `c` function as unsafe, just follow some naming convention...
>but without further description of what IO it's a pretty useless detail of the interface..
Take a look at effect-system libraries which can actually encode "What IO" at the type level and make it available everywhere. It is a pretty basic and widely used thing.
> The compiler does not and cannot check if these strict requirements are enough for the intended "safety". Right? It is the judgement of the programmer.
Yes*. It's up to the programmer to check that the safe abstraction they create around unsafe code guarantees all the requirements the unsafe code needs are upheld. The point is that that's done once, and then all the safe code using that safe abstraction can't possibly fail to meet those requirements - or in other words any safety related bug is always in the relatively small amount of code that uses unsafe and builds those safe abstraction.
> And what is stopping a `c` function with such requirements to be wrapped in some code that [doesn't] actually checks these requirements are met?
Assuming my edit to your comment is correct - nothing. It's merely the case that any such bug would be in the small amount of clearly labelled (with the unsafe keyword) binding code instead of "anywhere".
> The only thing that the rust compiler enables is to include a feature to mark a specific function as unsafe.
No, the rust compiler has a lot more features than just a way to mark specific functions as unsafe. The borrow checker, and it's associated lifetime constraints, enforcing that variables that are moved out of (and aren't `Copy`) aren't used, is one obvious example.
Another example is marking how data can be used across threads with traits like `Send` and `Sync`. Another - when compared to C anyways - is simply having a visibility system so that you can create structs with fields that aren't directly accessible via other code (so you can control every single function that directly accesses them and maintain invariants in those functions).
> In both cases there is zero help from the compiler to actually verify that the checks that are done on top are sufficient.
Yes and no, "unsafe" in rust is synonymous with "the compiler isn't able to verify this for you". Typically rust docs do a pretty good job of enumerating exactly what the programmer must verify. There are tools that try to help the programmer do this, from simple things like being able to enable a lint that checks every time you wrote unsafe you left a comment saying why it's ok, and that you actually wrote something the compiler couldn't verify in the first place. To complex things like having a (very slow) interpreter that carefully checks that in at least one specific execution every required invariant is maintained (with the exception of some FFI stuff that it fails on as it is unable to see across language boundaries sufficiently well).
The rust ecosystem is very interested in tools that make it easier to write correct unsafe code. It's just rather fundamentally a hard problem.
* Technically there are very experimental proof systems that can check some cases these days. But I wouldn't say they are ready for prime time use yet.
When I started learning Haskell, it did feel like coding with a straightjacket.
I think that is because when you start learning Haskell, you are not typically told about state monads, `IORefs` and likes that enables safe mutability.
It might be because Monads could have a tad bit advanced type machinery. But IORefs are straightforward, but typically one does not come across it until a bit too late into their Haskell journey.
>Straitjackets can be very useful.
Only if you’re insane.
Damn! This is the funniest HN comment that I have ever come across...
How dare you. C is a fine language.
Just don't accidentally step on any of these landmines and we'll all get along great.
Not to mention your sidearm is a Sig P365. We like to call them footguns.
The meaning of straightjacket here is inherently subjective and not to be meant literally.
You call it a straightjacket, I call it a railroad track for reliably delivering software.
How are we still having the same trade off discussion being argued so black and white when reality has shown that both options are preferred by different groups.
Rust says that all incorrect programs (in terms of memory safety) are invalid but the trade is that some correct programs will also be marked as invalid because the compiler can't prove them correct.
C++ says that all correct programs are valid but the trade is that some incorrect programs are also valid.
You see the same trade being made with various type systems and people still debate about it but ultimately accept that they're both valid and not garbage.
>C++ says that all correct programs are valid but the trade is that some incorrect programs are also valid.
C++ does not say this, in fact no statically typed programming language says this, they all reject programs that could in principle be correct but get rejected because of some property of the type system.
You are trying to present a false dichotomy that simply does not exist and ignoring the many nuances and trade-offs that exist among these (and other) languages.
Nope. C++ really does deliberately require that compilers will in some cases emit a program which does... something even though what you wrote isn't a C++ program.
Yes, that's very stupid, but they did it with eyes open, it's not a mistake. In the C++ ISO document the words you're looking are roughly (exact phrasing varies from one clause to another) Ill-formed No Diagnostic Required (abbreviated as IFNDR).
What this means is that these programs are Ill-formed (not C++ programs) but they compile anyway (No diagnostic is required - a diagnostic would be an error or warning).
Why do this? Well because of Rice's Theorem. They want a lot of tricky semantic requirements for their language but Rice showed (back in like 1950) that all the non-trivial semantic requirements are Undecidable. So it's impossible for the compiler to correctly diagnose these for all cases. Now, you could (and Rust does) choose to say if we're not sure we'll reject the program. But C++ chose the exact opposite path.
I'm not sure what your replying to, but it can't be my comment because what you're saying has absolutely nothing to do with it.
But kudos to you on writing an irrelevant wall of text.
It does. The UB is false positives to the question "Is this a valid program".
For all its faults, and it has many (though Rust shares most of them), few programming languages have yielded more value than C++. Maybe only C and Java. Calling C++ software "garbage" is a bonkers exaggeration and a wildly distorted view of the state of software.
I've been thinking of writing a language with Rust's ergonomics but less of the memory safety stuff. I prefer using no dynamic allocations, in which case the only memory safety feature I need is leaking references to locals into outer scopes. As for the thread safety stuff, most of my stuff is single-threaded.
I've been wishing for Rust to become more ergonomic, what ergonomics does Rust currently have that other languages lack?
For me its everything being an expression, macro_rules, dyn, automatic conversions (the few that it does have), traits, and the ? operator.
If Go had rust-style ADTs and pattern matching, and some parallel of "?" to short-circuit error handling, I'd be thrilled.
I love how everything is an expression with a value. And match expressions are quite nice, especially with the option type. I really miss those when working in javascript.
What are protental issues with compiler, by just disabling borrow checker? If I recall correctly some compiler optimisations for rust can not be done in C/C++ because of restrictions implied by borrow checker.
Rust can set restricts to all pointers, because 1 mut xor many shared refs rule. Borrow checker empowers this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrict
The crazy part about this is that (auto) vectorization in Rust looks something like this: iter.chunks(32).map(vectorized)
Where the vectorized function checks if the chunk has length 32, if yes run the algorithm, else run the algorithm.
The compiler knows that the chunk has a fixed size at compile time in the first block, which means it can now attempt to vectorize the algorithm with a SIMD size of 32. The else block handles the scalar case, where the chunk is smaller than 32.
Without the borrow checker, how should memory be managed? Just never deallocate?
The borrow checker does not deal with ownership, which is what rust’s memory management leverages. The borrow checker validates that borrows (references) are valid aka that they don’t outlive their sources and that exclusive borrows don’t overlap.
The borrow checker does not influence codegen at all.
It would be the same as in any language with manual memory management, you'd simply get a dangling pointer access. The 'move-by-default' semantics of Rust just makes this a lot trickier than in a 'copy-by-default' language though.
It's actually interesting to me that the Rust borrow checker can 'simply' be disabled (e.g. no language- or stdlib-features really depending on the borrow checker pass) - not that it's very useful in practice though.
The same as C++, destructors get called when an object goes out of scope.
If the only benefit of using Rust was to ensure the tech debt cheaters have a bad time each time they try to take a shortcut that ruins things for everyone, that would be enough of a benefit to use Rust.
To see them squirm trying to find the sloppy way of doing things and finding a locked door is just amazing.
My controversial opinion:
If Rust were to "borrow" something from the C/C++ spirit, then disabling the borrow checker should be available as a compiler option.
As in, you're an adult: if you want it, you can have it, instead of "we know better".
If you could disable the borrow checker globally, projects would do it, and it would become impossible to compile anything with it enabled.
You can already disable it locally: the unsafe keyword is for that.
The unsafe keyword doesn't disable the borrow checker... it lets you interact with different pointer types that aren't borrow checked, but if you're using the normal reference types in rust the same guardrails are still in place.
That's not the spirit Rust wants to have. You can already disable borrow checker selectively by using "raw" pointers in places where you think you know better, and this is used very commonly. Every String in Rust has such raw pointer inside.
It doesn't make much sense to globally relax restrictions of Rust's references to be like C/C++ pointers, because the reference types imply a set of guarantees: must be non-null (affects struct layout), always initialized, and have strict shared/immutable vs exclusive access distinction. If you relax these guarantees, you'll break existing code that relies on having them, and make the `--yolo` flag code incompatible with the rest. OTOH if you don't remove them, then you still have almost all of borrow checker's restrictions with none of the help of upholding them. It'd be like a flag that disables the sign bit of signed integers. It just makes an existing type mean something else.
Doesn’t work - you need the borrow checker guarantees to implement downstream compilation steps. You can just turn off assumptions
> you need the borrow checker guarantees to implement downstream compilation steps.
You don't technically. The borrow checker doesn't effect the semantics of the program (like, for example, type inference does) and the rest of the compiler doesn't need to (and in fact, doesn't) use its analysis to figure out how to compile the code.
The downstream compiler does assume that the code followed the rules for accessing references - i.e. didn't violating aliasing rules. The borrow checker guarantees this, but it's fundamentally a conservative check. It rejects programs it can't guarantee are correct, and rice's theorem proves that there are always correct programs that it can't guarantee are correct.
That said if you just treat rust-references like C-pointers you will run into issues. The aliasing rules for rust references are stricter. Also not fully agreed upon yet - the currently closest to accepted definition is in the "tree borrows" paper but it has yet to be adopted as the official one by the rust team.
Is rust simple aesthetics to you? Why use rust, or any language at all really, at all then? The whole point of formal languages is to point a gun at the people who refuse to be adults.
If we can't have this, C itself offers zero benefit over assembly.
I think it's more in the spirit of playfulness, like in "don't take yourself too seriously". It's why people want to mod Minecraft and Doom for example.
Because it's fun.
I can totally understand why you wouldn't want to do this though - the plethora of incompatible lisp dialects come to mind. That's why I said it was controversial.
You don't think assembly is more tedious to write than C? I don't think that's because of what C does/doesn't "allow" you to do.
Of course it is. C does allow named functions and variables. C doesn’t allow arbitrary jumps.
Those are two reasons why C is less tedious than assembly.
> C doesn’t allow arbitrary jumps.
Have you heard of longjmp?
I'm the author of this repo. I see some really angry comments, some of them even personal. Obviously I didn't think that just by tinkering with a compiler, I'd get personally attacked, but anyway, fair enough.
For those of you confused: yes, this started as a satirical project with the corroded lib. Then I thought "why not just remove the borrow checker?" without any real motivation. Then I just went ahead and did it. To my surprise, it was really simple and easy. I thought it would be heavily tangled into the rustc compiler, but once I figured out where the error emitter is, it was pretty straightforward.
I'm not sure about my long-term goals, but besides the joke, I genuinely think for debugging and prototyping purposes, I'd like the borrow checker to shut up. I'm the kind of guy that prints everything while debugging and prototyping. Maybe you're using a debugger, okay, but I don't. I don't like debuggers. It's just more convenient for me. So what constantly happens is I run into issues like: does this implement Debug? Can I print this after it moved? The borrow checker won't let me access this because of some other borrow. Stuff like that.
Another point is, as you guys are well aware, the borrow checker will reject some valid programs in order to never pass any invalid program. What if I'm sure about what I'm doing and I don't want that check to run?
In the repo there's a doubly linked list example. Without the borrow checker it's fairly simple and easy to implement. With it, you know how complicated and ugly it gets.
Anyway, have a good new year, and don't get angry over compilers, you know.
> Then I thought "why not just remove the borrow checker?" without any real motivation.
Reminds me of a chemistry kit I had as a kid. None of this tame, safe stuff you can buy these days. Mine was a gift from my dad and I never thought of asking him where he dug it up, but it had stuff like pure sulfuric acid in it.
One day, when I was done with all of the experiments I had planned to do, I decided to mix a few things and heat them up, just for fun, without any real motivation other than "let's see what happens".
Let's just say I was lucky we only had to replace some of the clothes my mom had left out for me to put away. ;)
> Another point is, as you guys are well aware, the borrow checker will reject some valid programs in order to never pass any invalid program. What if I'm sure about what I'm doing and I don't want that check to run?
Then you do it using the "unsafe" keyword, and you think long and hard about how to design and structure the code so that the unsafe code is small in scope, surface, and blast radius.
That's precisely what unsafe code is for: to get around the borrow checker and assert you know what you're doing. Of course, if you're wrong, that means your program will blow up, but at least you know that the culprit is hiding in one of those unsafe areas, rather than literally anywhere in the whole codebase.
Alternately, you can switch to a language with a different ethos.
The ethos of Rust is caring for memory safety so much that you willingly limit yourself in terms of what kind of code you write and you only step out of those limits reluctantly and with great care. That's something that resonates with a lot of people and Rust has been built on top of that for years.
If you suddenly take the product of those years of hard work, strip out the foundation it has been built on, and unironically offer it as a good idea, a lot of people won't like it and will tell you so. Mind, I'm not excusing the personal attacks, I'm just explaining the reaction.
Anything fun is dangerous. Or anything dangerous is fun. Something like that.
I think there is probably a way to do what you're doing with unsafe. You could write a library that copies handles and can dump potentially freed memory afterwards.
Some kind of cargo plugin that transforms all references in the project into pointers and casts prior to feeding to rustc would probably be the best practice and highly maintainable route I'd go. like "cargo expand" but with a fancy catchier name that encourages new users to rely on it. "cargo autofix" might work
There's definitely a way to do it without unsafe! It just isn't as simple as dropping one println out so.... Lets alter the compiler?
I gotta applaud that level of my-way-or-the-highway
You just need to master one package managed in depth and you will get what you really want with Modern C++.
Rust without async maybe?
This would actually be good though!
I would actually enjoy that for certain small projects. Rust without the borrow checker is a very elegant language. The borrow checker is great, of course, but it can be a pain to deal with. So, for small projects it would be nice to be able to disable it.
Instead of disabling the borrow checker what should be possible is to promote borrows to Rc/Arc as needed. I would want to restrict this mode to one where it can only work locally, never publishable to crates.io. It would be particularly useful when running tests, then instead of a compile error you can also get a runtime error with better information about the cases the borrow checker was actually encountering.
For everyone unaware, this repo is a meme:
https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1q0kvn1/corroded_upda...
As a follow on to the corroded meme crate:
https://github.com/buyukakyuz/corroded
> What Is This
> The rust compiler thinks it knows better than you. It won't let you have two pointers to the same thing. It treats you like a mass of incompetence that can't be trusted with a pointer.
> We fix that.
It does seem like satire. The very first example is:
This is not “I have correct code but Rust can’t tell it’s correct.” This is “wow, this code is intentionally outrageously wrong, obviously dereferences a pointer that is invalid, and happens to work anyway.”> this code is intentionally outrageously wrong
Can you explain why? Why can't both a and b point at the same string object? Does `let b = a;` do something like a destructive move?
I’m not picturing how it works.
In rust you don’t have a garbage collector and you don’t manually deallocate - if the compiler is not certain of who drops memory and when, what happens with those ambiguous drops ?
In other words, are the silenced errors guaranteed to be memory leaks/use after frees?
The borrow checker doesn't decide when things are dropped. It only checks reference uses and doesn't generate any code. This will work exactly the same as long as your program doesn't violate any borrowing rules.
No, I get that from an architectural perspective they are separate processes. The point is, unlike in other languages, the compiler is developed assuming the input has been borrow checked, right? So it is surprising to me that it doesn’t blow up somewhere when that invariant doesn’t hold.
In a correct program, the borrow checker has no effect.
Languages like C compile code with the understanding that if the compiler can't prove the code is incorrect, it'll assume it's correct. Rust compiles with the expectation that unless the compiler can prove the code correct (according to the language rules), it won't compile it. In C, all programs that only perform defined behaviour are valid, but many programs which exhibit undefined behaviour are also valid. In safe Rust, all programs which exhibit undefined behaviour are invalid. But as a trade-off, many programs which would actually execute perfectly well are also considered invalid.
In both cases, once you get past the layers that check stuff, you may normally assume that whatever you have has already been shown to be OK and you probably don't have enough information to re-check while compiling. It might blow up at runtime, it might not.
> So it is surprising to me that it doesn’t blow up somewhere when that invariant doesn’t hold.
The final program may be broken in various manners because you don't respect the language's prescribed semantics, in about the same way they do in C and C++. From the compiler's perspective the borrow checker validates that rules it assumes are upheld are actually upheld.
mrustc already compiles rust code without having a borrow checker (well IIRC recent-ish versions of mrustc have some borrow checking bits, but for the most part it still assumes that somebody else has done all the borrow checking).
The compiler has deep assumptions about exclusive ownership and moves, which affects destructors and deallocation of objects.
It doesn't actually depend on the borrow checker. All lifetime labels are discarded after being checked. Code generation has no idea about borrow checking. Once the code is checked, it is compiled just like C or C++ would, just assuming the code is valid and doesn't use dangling pointers.
Borrow checker doesn't affect program behavior. It either stops compilation or does nothing at all. It's like an external static analysis tool.
I'm pretty sure that every example except example-3 in the readme intentionally invokes undefined behavior - if that helps you picture how it works ;)
The silenced errors aren't guaranteed to be memory leaks or use after frees. There are some situations where memory is being handled properly, but the borrow checker isn't able to prove it.
One example might be a tree-like struct where a parent and child have references to each other. Even if everything is cleaned up properly, the borrow checker has no way to know that when the struct is created. Solving it requires unsafe at some point, usually through something like RefCell.
I don't think so, I don't think Rust's borrow checker is free of false negatives.
> In other words, are the silenced errors guaranteed to be memory leaks/use after frees?
No, not at all. The examples at the beginning of the article show this - they'll execute correctly. The borrow checker is quite conservative, and rules out all sorts of code that won't (normally!) cause runtime errors.
It's fairly easy to see this if you think about the core of Rust's ownership model: every value in Rust has a single owner. The compiler enforces that for any value, there's either one mutable reference or any number of immutable references to it at a time.
This model has the advantage of being simple, easy to reason about, and ruling out large classes of errors. But like most static checks, including e.g. traditional type checks, it also rules out a great deal of otherwise valid code.
It's easy to think of examples in which you have multiple mutable references to a value that won't cause errors. Aside from trivial examples like in the article, in C-like languages you can have many concurrent mutable references to the same mutable value. You can safely (with some caveats) manage access to it via locks, protocols, documentation, or just being careful. Rust with the borrow checker simply doesn't allow multiple concurrent mutable references to the same value to exist. Rust without the borrow checker, as in the article, would allow this.
Rust's concept of lifetime and scopes exists independently of the borrow checker
I am wondering whether this would actually be a helpful compile option in upstream rustc for quick prototyping. I don't want prod code to use this, but if I want to try things out during development, this could substantially shorten the dev cycle.
After a while, you just don't write code that would cause substantial borrow-checker problems, even when prototyping. I'd say the slow compile times are much more of an impediment for a practicing Rust prototyper than the borrow checker.
What the point, though? You will get compiling code, but later you would need to reachitecture code to avoid violating rust rules.
Sometimes, you just need to know if an idea will even work or what it would look like. If you have to refactor half the codebase (true story for me once), it makes the change a much harder sell without showing some benefits. IE, it keeps you from discovering better optimizations because you have to pay the costs upfront.
Can't you usually just throw some quick referenced counted cells in there, to make the borrow checker happy enough for a prototype without refactoring the whole code base?
In Rust, it's a lot easier to refactor half the codebase than it would be in another language. Once you're done fighting the compiler, you're usually done! instead of NEVER being sure if you did enough testing.
I can’t tell if you missed the whole point of “exploratory”…
There are easier ways of making segfault than writing a custom compiler.
I wish I could make the borrow checker give warnings not errors. It would make exploration so much easier, so I don’t have to fight the borrow checker until I know how to build what I want.
Then you have code full of warnings and undefined behavior?
I think fighting the borrow checker is more like a rite of passage. Rust is not my favorite language but the borrow checker is great.
This is not a hacker’s take
I'm lazy. If you turn off the borrow checker the code will need a rewrite later, since it's there for a very good reason.
This should be called trust, because it does view the developer as evil.
I meant "it does not view"
I don’t have a slightest idea why would anyone want this. Borrow checking is one of the greatest benefits of Rust.
It is funny.
It would be great if it only allowed multiple mutable borrows. That's the only one that always bugs me, for mostly innocuous stuff.
This isn’t actually unsafe unless shared across threads right? Maybe the borrow checker needs to be more nuanced to differentiate this rather then outright banning it all together. It would increase the logic of the borrow checker by a lot though.
Are the compile times noticeably faster?
Probably not, because it seems like it still checks for errors but just suppresses them.
Even so, the borrow checker repeatedly profiles as an insignificant part of compile times, so wouldn’t make a difference.
Isn't unsafe just for that? Why does it need a separate compiler?
Unsafe isn't so unsafe that it disables the borrow checker!
The two main things the compiler allows in an unsafe block but not elsewhere are calling other code marked "unsafe" and dereferencing raw pointers. The net result is that safe code running in a system that's not exhibiting undefined behaviour is defined to continue to not exhibit undefined behaviour, but the compiler is unable in general to prove that an unsafe block won't trigger undefined behaviour.
You can side-step the borrow checker by using pointers instead of references, but using that power to construct an invalid reference is undefined behaviour.
The borrow checker still applies in unsafe { } blocks. What it means (iirc) is that you can do pointer/memory stuff that would otherwise not be allowed. But you still fully adhere to Rust semantics
A motivation section in the readme seems like it is needed.
https://github.com/buyukakyuz/corroded/issues/11#issuecommen...
Yes, that was my motivation.
Should be named in rust we don't trust
Love the "Note for LLMs" and the NSFW license.
I'm assuming it's a meme project. In case it isn't, what's the point? Just trying to understand.
Isn't rust's one of the main selling point is the barrow checker right?
Also how's the memory is handled? I know it'll drop every thing once it's out of scope but it seems you can make copies as much as you want. Looking at the loop example, I feel like this introduces memory leaks & undefined behavior.
undefined behavior on steroids be like:
Tangentially related: the opposite, Rust's borrow checker sans the compiler, is actually very useful. As far as I understand, the borrow checker is a significant part of the work of writing a Rust compiler. Therefore, having the official borrow checker available as a standalone program can make alternative compilers (e.g. for exotic hardware) feasible faster, because they won't need a borrow checker of their own from the get-go.
Why would this matter? The borrowck is (a) not needed during bring-up because as its name suggests it is merely a check, so going without it just means you can write nonsense and then unbounded undefined behaviour results, but (b) written entirely in Rust so you can just compile it with the rest of this "exotic hardware" Rust compiler you've built.
Yeah, you're right, I'm misremembering something here. Thanks for the correction.
I get your point, but still you haven't identified a use for the borrow checker sans the compiler.
To me it feels like rust is barely readable sometimes. When I read some rust cost, I am often incapable to guess what it does, so it does not feel intuitive.
I wish they made something simpler. At least C and C++ have a low barrier of entry and any beginner can write code.
I don't think the borrow checker forced rust to be such a complicated language.
C++ doesn't have low barrier of entry, I almost quit programming as a teen because of C++.
Imo the worst thing about starting out with C++ (which is much better with Rust), is the lack of credible package management/build system that allows you to just install packages.
This used to be even more true previously than today. Nowadays, there's stuff like vcpkg, and tons of resources, but I still wouldn't call it straightforward compared to something like nuget or cargo.
It tooke me more time to figure out CMake than entire other programming languages.
> the lack of credible package management
APT/dpkg/yast/rpm/pacman/... ?
Make is very simple, you don't even need a makefile. Just type "make main" for main.cpp and it works.
It does really help, in modern languages where they provide tools in the box and the ecosystem just accepts those as the default† tools, to have the default be that when you make a new project it just works, often by having it print "Hello, World!" or something else simple but definitive as proof we made a program.
† Default means just that, neither Rust's own compiler nor the Linux kernel need the cargo tooling, but these projects both have actual toolsmiths to maintain their build infrastructure and your toy program does not. There should be a default which Just Works at this small scale.
There's a weird cognitive bias where somehow people justify "I compiled this Hello World C++ project " as "C++ is easy" and yet "I wasn't able to understand how this optimized linear algebra library works" gets classed as "Rust is hard".
In reality it matters what you already know, and whether you want to understand deeply or are just interested in enough surface understanding to write software. There's a reason C++ has an entire book about its many, many types of initialization for example.
Yes, Rust has a pretty steep learning curve. If you're not writing very low level stuff and don't need to squeeze out every last bit of performance, there are many other, simpler languages to choose from.
I think we may safely assume that Rust's designers are smart people that have made every effort to keep Rust as simple as it can be, given its intended use.
If you're not writing very low level stuff and don't need to squeeze out every last bit of performance, Rust code can be very simple and easy to understand as well.
> At least C and C++ have a low barrier of entry and any beginner can write code.
C/C++ is great at giving that false sense of competence. Then suddenly you're getting a segfault, and you'll never determine why with beginner knowledge, since the crash-line and the mistake-line aren't even in the same zipcode (and or same Git changeset).
Rust forces you to not "skip" knowledge steps. If you have a gap in your knowledge/understanding the compiler will call you out immediately. C/C++ will happily let your dangerously bad code compile and kinda-run, until it doesn't.
I'm not anti-C/C++, I've actually written tons. I love C in particular. But saying that they're beginner-friendly feels wrong, a lot of people quit the language because "random stuff" starts to go wrong, and they lack the knowledge to determine why.
Yep. I've heard it said that Rust forces you to experience all the pain up front. C will happily compile very broken code.
One of my formative memories learning C came after I wrote a function which accidentally returned a pointer to a variable on the stack. It took me about a week to track that bug down. I found it eventually - and then realised the compiler had been warning me about it the whole time. I'd just been ignoring the warnings "while I got my code working". Ugh. The rust borrow checker wouldn't let you even compile code like that.
If you're going to be working in a programming language for years or even decades, I think the extra complexity (and extra difficulty while learning) is an investment that will pay off. But I'd be very happy for rust to stay a niche language for systems software. C#, Go, Typescript and Swift seem like great choices for making webpages and apps.
I think the barrier to entry with Rust is lower than C++. Like was way lower... And I've been writing C++ for way long than Rust, so I'm probably a bit biased
I can just second that. Maybe someone (or some LLM) can write a nice superset of Rust that is more readable - so the barrier of entry drops significantly and we can all write better, more efficient and memory-safe code!
> To me it feels like rust is barely readable sometimes. [...] C++ have a low barrier of entry and any beginner can write code.
Here's rust code:
Here is the equivalent C++ for the vast majority of its life (any time before C++23, has MS even shipped C++23 support yet?): C++ initialisation alone is a more complex topic than pretty much any facet of Rust. And it's not hard to find C++ which is utterly inscrutable.> To me it feels like rust is barely readable sometimes. When I read some rust cost, I am often incapable to guess what it does, so it does not feel intuitive.
I feel torn with this sentiment.
On one hand, I totally agree. Rust's "foreign" ideas (borrowck, lifetimes, match expressions, traits, etc) make it harder to learn because there's a bunch of new concepts that nobody has really worked with before. Some of this stuff - lifetimes and borrows especially - really demand a lot of imagination on behalf of the programmer to be able to understand what's actually going on. The amount of thinking I do per shipped line of code seems higher for rust than it does for languages like Go, Typescript and C#. And sometimes C.
On the other hand, I learned C about 30 years ago. Not only have I forgotten how hard it was to learn, but I had the brain of a teenager at the time. And now I'm in my (early) 40s. I'm scared that some of the struggle I went through learning rust came because my brain is old now, and I've forgotten what its like to be out of my depth with a programming language. Learning rust requires shaking up some old neurons. And that's really good for us, but it sucks.
In reality, I think its a bit of both. I've been using rust a lot for about 3-4 years now. Its gotten way easier. But I still prototype a fair bit of algorithmic code in typescript first because I find TS makes it easier to iterate. That implies rust is actually more complex. But, some people pick rust as their first language and it seems to work out fine? I'm not sure.
> I don't think the borrow checker forced rust to be such a complicated language.
Which parts of rust seem complicated? I've found a lot of the things I struggled with at first got a lot easier with familiarity. I love traits and match expressions. I love rust's implementation of generics. I love most things about cargo and the module system. But also, some parts of rust annoy me a lot more now, a few years in.
I disagree with your comment. I think the main source of complexity in rust comes from lifetimes - which are required by the borrow checker. For example, its not obvious when you need to put lifetimes in explicitly and when you can elide them. When does the borrow checker understand my code? (Eg, can you mutably borrow two different elements in an array at the same time?). I also still don't really understand Higher-Rank Trait Bounds.
I also still find Pin really confusing. In general I think async and Futures in rust have some big design flaws. It also really bothers me that there's a class of data types that the compiler can generate and use, which are impossible to name in the language. And some of the rules around derive and traits are annoying and silly. Eg derive(Clone) on a generic struct adds the constraint T: Clone, which is straight out wrong. And rust needs a better answer to the orphan rule.
But in general, if you take out the borrow checker, I find rust to be simpler and easier to read than most C++. There's no headers. No exceptions. No wild template nonsense. And there's generally way less weird magic going on. Eg, Foo(bar); could mean about 8 different things in C++. Rust isn't like that. Rust is simple enough you can just read the standard library, even as a beginner, and its great. C++'s STL is a disaster to read.
Rust is definitely more complex than C. But you do get some lovely features for that extra cognitive overhead. Whether or not thats worth it is up to you. In general - and I've been saying this for years - I feel like the language I really want is rust 2. I can't wait for someone to take rust's best ideas and refine them into a simpler language.
I feel exactly the same - C++ might be a much more complex and arcane language when you consider its entire feature set, and all the syntactic machinery (I figured out by looking at STL or Boost code, just how much of C++ I don't know or understand), you can choose to not engage with most of the language. Hell, even stuff like unique_ptr is optional when you're just starting out.
But with Rust, you have to understand almost all of the language very intimately to be a productive programmer, and Rust is not that great at hiding complexity, as in fairly innocious decisions often have far-reaching consequences down the line.
> you have to understand almost all of the language very intimately to be a productive programmer,
I've seen absolute Rust noobs write production code in Rust, I have no idea where did you get that notion from. Most of the apps I've written or I've worked with don't even need to use explicit lifetimes at all. If you don't need absolute performance with almost none memory allocations, it's honestly not rocket science. Even more so if you're writing web backends. Then the code doesn't really differ that much from Go.
I've shipped a lot of Rust software without the understanding or even attempting to learn a lot of the language. There is plenty of things in core libraries around traits that I have no idea how they work or really care.
[flagged]
Could you please not post this sort of snarky-generic-meta comment? They attract upvotes and then stick at the top of the thread, choking out actually interesting discussion. (That's where this one was, but I'm going to mark it off topic and downweight it now.)
I completely understand your frustration about how common shallow-indignant comments are. But it doesn't help to post shallow-indignant or snarky comments of your own about it - it just produces even more of the same, or worse.
The way to combat shallow-indignant, predictable, tedious, etc., threads is to find something that you're genuinely curious and open about, and post from that place instead.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
And you were right.
Honestly, I thought it was serious because I’ve seen people do things exactly like this, just in different languages.
By “this” I mean “spend all their time fighting against the language/framework because they don’t like it, rather than just picking a different language.”
There can be good reasons for choosing a language that you otherwise don't like.
Eg legacy software, or because your boss tells you, or because of legal requirements, or because of library availability etc.
Those are excellent reasons but then you shouldn’t fight the language, you should go with the language/framework conventions as much as possible. Trying to fight the language design will only lead to buggy, hard to understand code, so either suck it up or get a different job.
EDIT: That last sentence is a bit harsher than I intended. I’m trying to convey the importance of professionalism in our work and remembering the experience of working with people who couldn’t do this brought back some bad memories!
Certain people feel very emotional about the compilers and interpreters they use
You couldn't pay me to work with them
Don't worry, they probably wouldn't want to work with you either.
Some programmers think and care a lot about software correctness in a kind of mathematical way. Others just want to ship features and enjoy their lives. Both approaches are fine. They just don't necessarily mix super well.
Some people like to tell you that diverse teams work better. Years ago I worked with someone who had a PhD in psychometrics. She said that's kind of a lie. If you actually look at the research it shows something more interesting. She said the research shows that having a diverse set of backgrounds makes a team perform better. But having a diverse set of values makes a team perform worse. It makes sense. If one person on the team wants to vibe code and someone else wants to make every line of code perfect, you're all in for a bad time.
There is a third kind. Those who want to have a lot of fun by using their imagination to come up with interesting ways build something, but in rust, the borrow checker often won't have any of it.
In rust you have to learn and internalize lot of the non-intutive borrow checker reasoning to remain sane. If you remember to spend a fraction of that effort to remember the "unsafe" things you could end up doing in C, then I think most people would be fine.
But rust enforces it, which is good for a small fraction of all software that is being written. But "Rust for everything!?"..Give me a fucking break!
This persona is the heart and soul of the "weirdly emotional about languages" archetype along with ruby fanatics. Look, y'all have notable and significant value, but only in very specific and unusual circumstances
C++ with extra steps?
C++ with a package manager.
Uh oh, this might look like a potentially memory-unsafe version of Rust...
Rust++ would be a nicer name then
Rust++? :)
Bust?
Bust++
Amazing, this is like the bizarro version of what I'd want. Like someone said 'hey, there's this kinda crappy language with a really cool feature, let's not make a great language with that feature, but instead take the crappy language and remove the cool feature which is the only thing keeping it from being trash'. Okay, sure, tagged unions, closures, and hygienic macros are nice; but there are plenty of other languages with the first two and when your syntax is atrocious even the most hygienic macro is going to look like something that crawled out of the sewer at R'lyeh.
Rust- is you use C with ring buffers. If you think you need dynamic memory allocation your program is underspecified.
Avoiding dynamic allocation does not avoid memory unsafety in C.
How does "zero dynamic allocation" work in practice for something like a text editor IE. vscode or other apps that let users open arbitrary files?
It’s technically possible to do, just very complicated and hard. Quite often, prohibitively so.
Still, the main idea is despite the input files are arbitrarily large, you don’t need an entire file in memory because displays aren’t remotely large enough to render a megabyte of text. Technically, you can only load a visible portion of the input file, and stream from/to disk when user scrolls. Furthermore, if you own the file format, you can design it in a way which allowing editing without overwriting the entire file: mark deleted portions without moving subsequent content, write inserts to the end of files, maybe organize the file as a B+ tree, etc.
That’s how software like Word 97 supported editing of documents much larger than available memory. As you can imagine, the complexity of such file format, and the software handling them, was overwhelming. Which is why software developers stopped doing things like that as soon as computers gained enough memory to keep entire documents, and instead serialize them into sane formats like zipped XMLs in case of modern MS office.
What if you don't know ahead of time how big that monitor is that you are displaying stuff on?
In any case, what you are describing sounds like an ad-hoc re-implementation of virtual memory?
Either take the biggest one or render in chunks.
> What if you don't know ahead of time how big that monitor is that you are displaying stuff on?
Use a reasonable upper estimate?
> ad-hoc re-implementation of virtual memory?
If you rely on actual virtual memory instead of specially designed file format, saving large files will become prohibitively slow. On each save you have to stream the entire document from page file to actual memory, serialize the document, produce the entire file, then replace. And then when resuming editing after the save, you probably have to load the visible portion back from disk.
Just impose a maximum buffer size ;)
Instead of over specifying a program you can just use dynamic memory allocation
I'd prefer the opposite - borrow checker, but remove the useless "fn" and "let" keywords