This is a slap on the wrist for a company of Epic's size. Anyone know if this comes with restrictions on future in-app purchases made by children, or if these already exist in NL and Epic was ignoring them?
I used to be obsessed with in game skins as a teenager but I'm very thankful the game I played most didn't charge for them. But I remember freaking out at my parents when they stopped me playing a game one night because I wanted a new skin so badly.
I grew out of it, I can't help but feel the scarcity of such skins/items don't lead to anything good except manipulation.
Hopefully this is the first fine of many. That's where well written laws typically stack up fines as violations persist. This way you don't send some small company into bankruptcy for an actual error, and you eventually start stinging willing offenders so badly they stop at some point.
The Netherlands typically accounts for roughly 1.5% to 2% of the global video game market. After applying this share to Epic’s global estimated revenue of $5.7 billion, we can estimate roughly $100 million to $115 million for 2024.
If the fine for operating unlawfully in the Netherlands is more than the profit, not revenue, from operating in the Netherlands, that it is a reason to stop operating unlawfully in the Netherlands for even the most hard-nosed of businesses.
If Epic wishes to operate at a loss in the Netherlands because this is a rounding error, that's their problem.
They don't even have an office in the Netherlands. I'm not entirely sure they even have employees in the Netherlands. If they've made a net profit over 1.1m in the Netherlands, and I'll bet you $1.1 they have, they did not operate at a loss.
Epic really don't need to engage in such dirty tricks to get kids money; they do all that to each other. Kids with the default Fortnite skin are bullied, excluded. The social pressure is huge.
Speaking of evil dark-patterned business practices, Epic just recently U-turned on lootboxes again. Fortnite did have them originally, but pivoted to the less egregious FOMO sales funnel around when it got really popular, except now they've backtracked by allowing pay-to-win and lootbox mechanics in user-created game modes.
Fortnite's user-created modes are essentially an attempt to compete with Roblox, and like Roblox their age demographics skew very young, so this reads as a deliberate attempt to exploit children specifically.
Maybe it has changed since I played it, but I honestly found Fortnite to be pretty non-predatory compared to most live service games. I know that's a low bar, but at least you can just buy stuff when you see them on there.
If we looked at the top 100 played steam games, I don't think Fortnite would crack the top 15 for most manipulative.
Weirdly I agree. After seeing the truly god-awful pay to win gambling-filled landscape of Roblox, Fortnite feels pretty tame and respectful. V bucks aren't shoved down your throat, the battle passes are pretty transparent about what you get, and the whole cosmetics store feels less lootbox-heavy than a lot of games.
> Now, third-party games can offer premium in-game items and effects, with developers pocketing 37% of the proceeds — temporarily doubled to 74% for 12 months.
37%? Developers get a 37% cut? Holy fucking hypocrisy from Tim Sweeney and the camp at Epic Games with their predation here.
Epic wasn't fined for putting things on sale. Instead, it was fined for putting pressure on children to buy things that were put on sale; e.g. through wording like "Get it now" and "Grab it", and through design.
This makes no sense. You can't buy anything on Fortnite with real money. The purchase you make is for blocks of v-bucks which can then be spent on items.
The actual financial transaction is completely divorced from any items that are on sale and, hopefully, that financial transaction is completely out of the direct control of children.
I play Fortnite -- I get the battle pass, I have a lot of skins and items, and I have never paid a cent. I earn enough v-bucks from playing the game to never have to pay.
That's actually pretty amazing and so I question this fine situation. If you didn't give your kid a cent for Fortnite, they could still play and have great time with their friends and basically get the full experience including skins, items, and emotes.
Good. Now take on all the free-to-play game ecosystem next. I'm actually thinking about starting up a youtube channel on that topic - the dark patterns, the quasi-gambling, fake ads for medical products (e.g. fat-loss pills [1]) or financial scams [2], it's out of control.
That's tiny in comparison to the FTC fine. Epic settled with the FTC for more than half a billion.
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/12/...
This is a slap on the wrist for a company of Epic's size. Anyone know if this comes with restrictions on future in-app purchases made by children, or if these already exist in NL and Epic was ignoring them?
Still cheaper for corporations to commit crimes than if a "child manipulation tax" existed.
I used to be obsessed with in game skins as a teenager but I'm very thankful the game I played most didn't charge for them. But I remember freaking out at my parents when they stopped me playing a game one night because I wanted a new skin so badly.
I grew out of it, I can't help but feel the scarcity of such skins/items don't lead to anything good except manipulation.
I'm sure they will mourn this crippling loss of a few hours worth of revenue.
Hopefully this is the first fine of many. That's where well written laws typically stack up fines as violations persist. This way you don't send some small company into bankruptcy for an actual error, and you eventually start stinging willing offenders so badly they stop at some point.
Probably more like 90 minutes, tops.
Why use a non-English source? Doesn't that encourage people to reply to the headline rather than the article?
If you would like the actual court decision, you can get that, the language won't be different. Not everything is English :)
The fine was issued in the Netherlands, by a Netherlands government body, regarding kids from the Netherlands.
The predominately spoken language in the Netherlands is not English.
Huh? its 2026. Auto-translate is like table stakes at this point. It is one of my favorite modern innovations, reading foreign journalism is nifty.
Epic generated approximately $6 billion in revenue in 2024, just for comparison.
How much in the Netherlands though?
The Netherlands typically accounts for roughly 1.5% to 2% of the global video game market. After applying this share to Epic’s global estimated revenue of $5.7 billion, we can estimate roughly $100 million to $115 million for 2024.
1) Total Estimated Epic Revenue: $5.7 billion https://sacra.com/c/epic-games/ 2) Global Gaming Market: $187.7 billion https://best-of-gaming.be/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/2024_Ne... 3) The Netherlands Gaming Market Size: $2.5 billion https://www.imarcgroup.com/netherlands-gaming-market
Is it relevant?
"Sorry Netherlands, despite trying to expand into the global market more, this 1.1m fine is just too much."
This fine is a rounding error for any big games studio.
If the fine for operating unlawfully in the Netherlands is more than the profit, not revenue, from operating in the Netherlands, that it is a reason to stop operating unlawfully in the Netherlands for even the most hard-nosed of businesses.
If Epic wishes to operate at a loss in the Netherlands because this is a rounding error, that's their problem.
They don't even have an office in the Netherlands. I'm not entirely sure they even have employees in the Netherlands. If they've made a net profit over 1.1m in the Netherlands, and I'll bet you $1.1 they have, they did not operate at a loss.
This fine is a joke.
So glad the courts are letting them run their own app stores.
Epic really don't need to engage in such dirty tricks to get kids money; they do all that to each other. Kids with the default Fortnite skin are bullied, excluded. The social pressure is huge.
Why can I read and understand this article...
I'm on Epic's side on this one. Having things for sale in a game is different from "manipulating children" into buying things in a game.
They created artificial scarcity and used time pressure to persuade children into spending their parents money.
The fine can't be big enough imho. This is an evil dark-patterned business practise.
Speaking of evil dark-patterned business practices, Epic just recently U-turned on lootboxes again. Fortnite did have them originally, but pivoted to the less egregious FOMO sales funnel around when it got really popular, except now they've backtracked by allowing pay-to-win and lootbox mechanics in user-created game modes.
https://www.ign.com/articles/as-fortnite-enables-third-party...
Fortnite's user-created modes are essentially an attempt to compete with Roblox, and like Roblox their age demographics skew very young, so this reads as a deliberate attempt to exploit children specifically.
Why can't Valve and others get fined for worse designs? Because Teens play Counter-strike and not children?
Children do not have money of their own and can’t spend their parents’ money.
Yes, they do. They can even make money.
But not by playing P2W games.
Maybe it has changed since I played it, but I honestly found Fortnite to be pretty non-predatory compared to most live service games. I know that's a low bar, but at least you can just buy stuff when you see them on there.
If we looked at the top 100 played steam games, I don't think Fortnite would crack the top 15 for most manipulative.
Weirdly I agree. After seeing the truly god-awful pay to win gambling-filled landscape of Roblox, Fortnite feels pretty tame and respectful. V bucks aren't shoved down your throat, the battle passes are pretty transparent about what you get, and the whole cosmetics store feels less lootbox-heavy than a lot of games.
Edit: ope literally just saw this in another comment, whoops: https://www.ign.com/articles/as-fortnite-enables-third-party...
> Now, third-party games can offer premium in-game items and effects, with developers pocketing 37% of the proceeds — temporarily doubled to 74% for 12 months.
37%? Developers get a 37% cut? Holy fucking hypocrisy from Tim Sweeney and the camp at Epic Games with their predation here.
Still not as bad as Roblox! (but yeah still bad)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28249094
Epic wasn't fined for putting things on sale. Instead, it was fined for putting pressure on children to buy things that were put on sale; e.g. through wording like "Get it now" and "Grab it", and through design.
For details, check the ruling here (Dutch): https://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/details?id=ECLI:NL:RBROT:2...
This makes no sense. You can't buy anything on Fortnite with real money. The purchase you make is for blocks of v-bucks which can then be spent on items.
The actual financial transaction is completely divorced from any items that are on sale and, hopefully, that financial transaction is completely out of the direct control of children.
it is unreasonably easy to make non-refundable purchases in these games. They deserve this and every lawsuit that follows.
I play Fortnite -- I get the battle pass, I have a lot of skins and items, and I have never paid a cent. I earn enough v-bucks from playing the game to never have to pay.
That's actually pretty amazing and so I question this fine situation. If you didn't give your kid a cent for Fortnite, they could still play and have great time with their friends and basically get the full experience including skins, items, and emotes.
The judgment isn't for having things on sale.
It’s likely the judgement is more complex that that…
So it was basically worth it?
thats like 1 minute of fortnite revenue which is a ad masqueraded as a game
Good. Now take on all the free-to-play game ecosystem next. I'm actually thinking about starting up a youtube channel on that topic - the dark patterns, the quasi-gambling, fake ads for medical products (e.g. fat-loss pills [1]) or financial scams [2], it's out of control.
[1] https://www.kino.de/tv/warnung-vor-fake-werbung-diese-produk...
[2] https://www.manager-magazin.de/unternehmen/tech/betrugsmasch...
Where does the fine money go? To the victims?
Roblox: Hold my beer