I feel quite bad for people living in the United States. Despite the constant refrain about freedom y'all are actually pretty hindered when it comes to reasonably priced EVs.
On Saturday I put a down on a BYD Shark 6 truck. Hopefully I'll collect it Friday, if not early next week. I'm paying $41,200 USD for the thing brand new.
I saw a MotorTrend review of it last week, they flew down to Mexico City to test one out. The entry level pricing there is $50,060 USD.
Here in Australia they're called the "Raptor Killer" as they will take Ford Ranger Raptors off the line and cost a bit more than half the price of the Raptor.
It's funny that the software engineers on this forum are all obsessed with building scalable systems that can provide a service at the lowest cost but when it comes to manufacturing all of a sudden it's "we must protect jerbs".
Looks like a great car. As Marques Brownlee puts it [1], this is Rivian's "Model Y fighter". And I personally find the R2 to be much more appealing than a Model Y in terms of size, shape, and interior.
But we have been misled so many times about EV prices prior to launch, I think it's important to wait until we see what it actually costs for different trim levels before making comparisons to the Model Y. That $45,000 price they are throwing around could very well be for a trim that isn't even available at launch.
And anyway if I were going to buy a new compact crossover today, I'd probably lean more toward the RAV4 PHEV. It's an EV most of the time, I can refill it up with gas during long trips, it's got tactile buttons, and it has carplay.
None of these car reviewers ever take into account build quality and customer issues. Example they all lashihly praised the EX90, but owners struggled for a year with software problems, then found out the LIDAR they paid for is never going to assist their driving and they need a new computer. Same with Rivian, all of today's reviews praise the R2, but ignore the troubles current owners have not just with the car but with getting service too.
Never buy a first year model and then keep an eye on owners forums before you buy.
The only thing I'd miss about the MY is the 7-seat feature. I love the fact that you can technically cram two more people in the car on the occasional times when you need to, without needing to drive a giant 7-seat boat. I wish more mid-size electric SUVs did the same.
The RAV4 EV capacity is so small, the electric engine so weak (cuts to gas well before highway speed), and the charge speed so slow, that in practice its a 100% gas car. Only a small number of disciplined owners are going to be able to run it as an EV most of the time, as its actually impractical to do so.
This is completely false. I own one. It goes up to the low 80s mph before the gas engine kicks in. Acceleration from a stop is sub 6 second 0-60. Hardly weak. Charges from fully empty to full in about 2.5 hours.
Mine gets a 40-45 mile all electric range. I drive 10-12k miles per year, and ignoring extended multi-day vacation road trips once every couple years, I fill up the tank 2-3 times per year.
Toyotas hybrid uses gas when you accelerate hard to get that 0-60, it’s a combined system horsepower. Unlike phevs, EREVs are only driven by the electric drive, and the gas system is a series generator, so the EV is fully capable & always doing 100% of the work. PHEVs fundamentally aren’t.
Anyway, the real world data from PHEV usage shows you are the outlier, most people don’t bother plugging them in regularly due to their limitations.
Again, false. You can clearly hear when the combustion engine kicks in and it's indicated in the dash. I can floor it in electric mode and it still gets up to 60 in around 6 seconds, no gas involved. Hybrid mode is probably slightly faster but it's a very marginal difference.
I don't believe your last statement because you've been wrong about everything else, and it doesn't make sense. Plugging it in is exactly as easy as literally any electric car, and it simply doesn't have the limitations you claim it does.
I don't know what you've been reading, but you should evaluate the veracity of it as a source and talk to actual owners. I know several others who have one and we're all quite happy with them and don't get gas often
“ The researchers attributed most of the gap to overestimates of the “utility factor” – the ratio of miles travelled in electric mode to the total miles travelled – finding that 27% of driving was done in electric mode even though official estimates assumed 84%. ”
Perhaps the rav4 prime @ 41ml max ev range is a better system than all the other low range PHEVs like it, and has better real world usage data than them. I doubt it though.
The 23-25 RAV4 prime has a recall where the instrument cluster goes blank. AFAIK the whole thing needs to be replaced. Sounds just like the Ioniq ICCU issues.
The RAV4 Prime is extremely hard to get if you live outside of SoCal and maybe a few other areas. I'm in the southeast and a few years ago the local dealer told me that this entire region is only allocated a few Prime's each quarter. Even today I've never seen one in the wild.
Not only that, but it sounds like dealerships are still hardcore ripping off people who want to buy a RAV4 Prime. $20k over MSRP, refusing to sell without add-ons / warranty, etc.
Toyota is claiming "up to 52 miles on a full charge" on the recently announced 2026 RAV4 PHEV [1]. For me that would be enough to cover the majority of my trips.
Looks like I was mistaken though and you can't actually buy the 2026 model yet (and the Toyota website still shows the older 2025 model). And as another commenter pointed out, it may not actually be possible to buy the older model either due to insufficient production.
I think insiders would tell you off the record not to get an R1, but that the R2s should be much more robust. Of course it's untested at this point, but hopefully that's the case.
The R2 was the first time I seriously thought about spending up on a vehicle.
It looks good.
But $45k++ is just wild to me. It seems like the market is undervaluing used EV’s, so hopefully the depreciation curve will bring these down to $30k in a couple years for us old-school folks who prefer not to have a $1000/mo car loan.
I'm a little confused why you think that's wild; It's pricing is inline with other BEV's in the Canadian market at least; it's comparing with the Model Y, the Equinox, the Blazer, the Mach e, the Ioniq 5, the EV6, the BZ4, and the Aryia.
Typically speaking you're going to spend $10,000 to $13,000 more then an equivalent gas car for a BEV vs a comparable gas car in Canada.
The 45k is a myth for now. The vehicles that have been reviewed so far are going to be $60k+ performance models. We'll see if they actually get down to 45k.
From the analysis I've seen with that drag coefficient, the 45k vehicle is going to have to have a range of 220 to 260 miles. Hardly something that will fly off the shelves.
It’s just surprising to me that this is surprising to anyone in 2026. New cars are no longer $20-30k in the US and haven’t been since 2021. Average transaction price is now $50k+, so if companies like Rivian that skip the dealership model charge $45k, it really isn’t that expensive. The only new cars under $30k are sedans and hatchbacks. And most of them start at almost $27-30k for base price not including all the bs dealership fees.
ya same, i can't see spending as much as i did on my first tesla 5+ years ago, the depreciations just too steep, hopefully that holds for rivian too and i'll pick one up in a couple years the R2 is really nice.
That said, china BEV's are 1/2 the cost even accounting for import costs to the USA lol so sort of points toward a issue with US companies at the moment
Most people in California don’t have PG&E. Most of the land area in the northern 2/3 of the State or so is covered by PG&E, but people and land area aren't the same thing. Southern California Edison alone serves almost as many people as PG&E, and other smaller utilities, including public utilities like LADWP, SMUD, Silicon Valley Power, etc., serve another big chunk of the population.
Average price of a new vehicle in the US is $50,000. This is priced appropriately considering total cost of ownership delta against a combustion vehicle. Rivian needs more volume for prices to decline from manufacturing efficiency at scale.
A cursory search of the web shows that TCO for EVs in the US is higher than ICE for all but high mileage commuters. Wish it wasn't the case, but insurance alone is a 30% premium.
Insurance is a bear for Teslas. They cost a lot to repair.
The Model 3 Highland is super fun to drive. Maybe other EVs have this too. It's a very different experience to a similarly priced ICE car, and worth factoring in to the value proposition.
I specify Highland because the previous version was rattly and noisy enough to seriously detract from the zippy driving experience. Highland is nice.
NYT recently did a fantastic calculator. It isn't simple flat one or the other is cheaper. It takes into account buy vs lease, milage, local energy cost, length of ownership etc
How are insurers making any money insuring these things nowadays? 30% higher premiums are being mentioned elsewhere in the comments; that doesn't sound like enough!
People keep repeating this uncritically. There is a car-debt crisis, and wages haven't kept up with house/car costs.
We have one person saying "well in Californian wages..." and another saying essentially that 50K isn't a lot of money when the average SALARY is $66K/year.
I also believe this $50,000 stat is the mean car price which is likely to be pushed up by luxury car sales that cost 2-4x what a typical car costs, whereas a median price would give a better indication of what most people are actually spending. I did a quick Google search and wasn't able to find any data on median price, though.
To what degree is this caused by car prices versus Americans' compulsion to keep buying new cars? Anecdotally, the folks I know struggling with car payments are almost exclusively in the latter bucket. But I'm open to having my mind changed with data.
Not entirely true; there are at least the lease, rental, and commercial fleet markets supplying predictable inventory of used cars to the public market.
I have 2014 Tesla S which which I recently had drive unit and battery replaced ($20k total). my friends all think I am nuts, but they all have $1k+ payments (some for 72m) while I haven’t had a car payment since 2017 and won’t have another one till 2036 :)
Can they fix that web page? That was so awful to try to get any info.. Just scroll, scroll, scroll and still just a bunch of big pictures and no meaningful info.
This was half the reason I posted to HN, honestly. I've seen several recent examples of modern product pages which render awfully because they're trying to be "quirky".
Edit: look at this, scrolling an entire screen only to have a photo zoom by <1.25x: https://imgur.com/a/G2Hfe3Q
If you look at the R1 pages, you'll see those pages, though scroll-heavy, at least contain more useful info. I'm hoping that after R2 is actually available to order, that they'll update the page with more information. It's still early.
If we can have open standards to allow my car to interoperate with my home batteries (Franklin, Enphase, Tesla Powerwall or others), we'll all be better off.
Haptic steering wheel thumb-wheels instead of actual buttons? Hell no. Full pass. And we're in the market for a vehicle like this in the next year or so, looking hard at Santa Fe Calligraphy, or Outback XT (similar size, similar price tag, AFAICT). No physical buttons = no sale.
I think you’re confusing “haptic” for “capacitive”. The wheels are real, physical controls with motors to give tactile feedback about the state of the UI. You can literally feel where the beginning and end of a list are, for example. It’s even better than traditional buttons.
The only problem is that there aren’t also physical controls for media and climate, which there should be. But for everything else, the thumb wheels are going to be awesome.
Former R1S Gen 2 owner. Love this brand and I want to love the car, but the quality and constant maintenance issues were unacceptable.
Rattles, a door mirror motor breaking, doors that wouldn't shut properly, door weather stripping that fell off, a door that just wouldn't open, panel alignment issues, some kind of screaching-to-a-halt-and-terrifying-my-family auto-brake that Rivian never figured out after reviewing log data.
Oh and did I mention the fans or heat pump that sound like a ROCKET LAUNCHING?! At a park one time someone asked me if something was wrong with the vehicle. Nope, that's just the terrible fans they chose!
Insult to injury: someone rear ended me. Insurance "covered" it, but the local collision center --- my only option within 6 hours --- charges a 2X rate for EVs that State Farm would not cover. So a $14,000 MINOR FENDER DENT turned into $7,000 out of pocket for me.
If you look at /r/rivian, it's a near constant stream of issues. While Rivian did expedite service center visits for critical issues, other times repairs were months out. And as the R2 scales, SC growth will probably trail for a while, and so I really fear for the experience early adopters are in for.
I am rooting for them but for me personally I would not consider another Rivian.
I really reality wish rivian create a better self-driving technology soon and make a proper competition to tesla. Rivian cars are so nice and well designed.
Personally I'm in no rush to have self-driving capabilities in my car for at least another decade or so. I'm pretty happy with the current ADAS systems found in most cars like adaptive cruise control, lane keeping, and collision avoidance - and happy to just see incremental refinements to those systems.
At some point I want a self-driving car, but I'm happy to let Waymo and Tesla users test those systems for another 10+ years before I personally start using them.
The main thing I think about self-driving is if it truly were self-driving and you could sleep in the car while it drives to a destination overnight. Even if it were only highways. That would be really cool.
Are you buying a car in the next 10 years? I’m in a similar boat. But I’m irrelevant to the car market because I’m not buying until I can buy a Level 4 car.
I just bought a new car, and will probably buy another 1-2 cars in the next 10 years. My ideal upgrade path for cars is:
* I wanted my most recent purchase to be a PHEV
* I want my next purchase in roughly 5 years to be an EV (hopefully solid state batteries are available by then)
* In about 10 years I am hoping that I can buy a car that can self-drive most of my trips door-to-door
One thing I'll add is that I live in an area that gets a ton of snow, and current ADAS features are basically worthless in snow. They all turn off once the sensors get covered in ice, or when lines in the road are no longer visible. So I expect that even in new cars 10 years from now, I'll still need to take the wheel to drive during winter. Basically the features are nice when they work, but I'm still going to want to car that is first and foremost designed to be driven by humans.
> I live in an area that gets a ton of snow, and current ADAS features are basically worthless in snow
I live in Western Wyoming. While my Subaru won't drive itself in a blizzard, the radar is still useful.
My plan is to wait until I have something that can drive itself unsupervised in clear weather. Given that's Waymo today and maybe Tesla in ~5 years, I'm figuring something should be on the market that fits that bill within 10, which is how long I'll try to hold onto my gas-burnig Subaru.
They're working on that. They're partnering with Nvidia and the R2 will get upgraded hardware for self driving in the fall. I couldn't tell from the website if making a reservation now lets you wait for that.
Self-driving seems like something where car companies shouldn’t all “reinvent the wheel.” A couple of the bigger car companies have projects on this, right? Maybe they could share.
> A couple of the bigger car companies have projects on this, right? Maybe they could share
Why should they? We're already approaching geopolitical competition at this problem, given self-driving cars and self-driving self-propelled guns and the like are basically technological twins.
Honestly just decent smart cruise and lane keeping is good enough. Concentrate on making a solid long range reliable EV is the best way to compete with Tesla in the short to medium term.
No, sorry, I wouldn't buy EVs from any US company any more until they are matura enough that the model production surpasses at least Tesla Model S+X since released. Their reliability just suck. I don't want to waste my life again and again in those months-long waiting of service appointments, annoying issues every where and every day, hiring Lemon law lawyers and other BS.
"No CarPlay" is approximately where I stopped reading -- and I am literally their dream target audience - enough money to buy a second car, easily able to afford one of theirs, have solar on top of my house making my electricity cheap, like techy things.
They will either learn or ... not, I guess. I know I am not the only one. Nobody in my family would buy anything techy without my advice (and a modern EV is basically an iPad on wheels, so it qualifies as techy), and I will never ever give "yes" to a car without CarPlay
I like the Rivians I've seen. They're actually, y'know, a truck as opposed to a k-hole hallucination. You can lift stuff up and over the bed near the cab.
Length and width wise, it's smaller than a Model Y. It's deceptively styled to look a big boy car, but it's a matchbox. That's why no reviewers will show themselves or anyone else towering over it. It's for those who want a big car, but without all that space. Rivian calls it a mid-size SUV, but that is straight up bullshit.
If you want to see a reviewer next to it for scale, Doug DeMuro is 6'4" and has what you're looking for, from various angles over the course of the review. Looks like a reasonable size to me.
"Matchbox" is rather hyperbolic and would better match the upcoming R3/R3X which is around the size of a VW Golf (though that still isn't that small… Honda Fits, kei cars, and Fiat 500s are smaller still).
It's about a foot longer than my crossover, which is about the same size as a RAV4 or CR-V and there's no way I could call it tiny.
> It's deceptively styled to look a big boy car, but it's a matchbox. That's why no reviewers will show themselves or anyone else towering over it. It's for those who want a big car, but without all that space.
I miss the days when men looking to compensate would buy sports cars. It wasn't any less ridiculous, but at least they (edit: the cars) were better looking and more fun to drive.
If only those ridiculous guys who wanted something fun to drive had realized how much more fun they could have by making fun of people and feeling superior.
I guess it depends on what they were compensating for. Up until the 80's and 90's at least there was more association of racing cars with road cars that you could buy.
So that would associate you with the (A man's manly-man maybe?) driver of that car.
But now race cars are not really much like a production road car. And those older men with money don't necessarily want to be like the ever younger drivers being employed to win races.
As you say, ridiculous, but at least the sports cars were cool.
"straight up bullshit" would be calling a 4runner-sized vehicle a "matchbox". Really highlights how ridiculous American's unnecessary lust is for massive vehicles.
I wish Rivian would stop trying to emulate Tesla on this front and add support for CarPlay. I don't want your UI.
I actually like the look of the Rivian and this is something I'm somewhat in the market for (or will be in the next few years) but I won't touch it without CarPlay.
as a tesla owner, all I can tell, carPlay is ugly child was born due to EU car makers, not capable of building proper infotainment system.
I want to drive, not constantly connect/accept privacy etc. Especially if that is a $100k+ car.
When i get into the car, the last thing I'd like to know how my car is getting connected to my phone, if there are any issues, especially if that is not my car.
I love how my car knows that in the morning i go to work, and wednesday evening i go to yoga, and put GPS, with best traffic options. 0 touch, all super seamless. No phones involved.
i have a rivian, and despite being a carplay fan before, i do not miss it. Carplay is a crutch for legacy autos who cant make software, so you just want to overlay a phone feed over their crap. But its very limited, its essentially a video overlay box and has terrible / non-existent integration with the cars smarts, like battery, range, HUD screens, advanced audio controls, etc etc. In my experience with carplay in other smart-ish cars (BMW X series) the carplay experience fights with the car OS constantly and is an awful incoherent experience.
A well made car software solution, like the rivians(mostly), is a better experience overall imho.
I say this as someone who still loves having carplay on my other car, a subaru, because their software is atrocious.
i would say, give one a try you might change your mind.
With FSD , that is a very very capable system in 2026, You need real multi media for driving (once it's solved), for camping , movies during charging, and not phone somehow ugly slapped by some plastic holder to your car.
I feel quite bad for people living in the United States. Despite the constant refrain about freedom y'all are actually pretty hindered when it comes to reasonably priced EVs. On Saturday I put a down on a BYD Shark 6 truck. Hopefully I'll collect it Friday, if not early next week. I'm paying $41,200 USD for the thing brand new. I saw a MotorTrend review of it last week, they flew down to Mexico City to test one out. The entry level pricing there is $50,060 USD. Here in Australia they're called the "Raptor Killer" as they will take Ford Ranger Raptors off the line and cost a bit more than half the price of the Raptor.
A BYD Shark 6 is not an EV?
Yeah, I didn’t realize we were calling hybrids “EV”s now.
Also, the BYDs I’ve been in were chintzy garbage as far as fit and finish goes. Can’t speak to their reliability, or other aspects of them, though.
It's funny that the software engineers on this forum are all obsessed with building scalable systems that can provide a service at the lowest cost but when it comes to manufacturing all of a sudden it's "we must protect jerbs".
It's about time people woke up to the fact China is not just after jerbs.
Looks like a great car. As Marques Brownlee puts it [1], this is Rivian's "Model Y fighter". And I personally find the R2 to be much more appealing than a Model Y in terms of size, shape, and interior.
But we have been misled so many times about EV prices prior to launch, I think it's important to wait until we see what it actually costs for different trim levels before making comparisons to the Model Y. That $45,000 price they are throwing around could very well be for a trim that isn't even available at launch.
And anyway if I were going to buy a new compact crossover today, I'd probably lean more toward the RAV4 PHEV. It's an EV most of the time, I can refill it up with gas during long trips, it's got tactile buttons, and it has carplay.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfReqcUJfBU
None of these car reviewers ever take into account build quality and customer issues. Example they all lashihly praised the EX90, but owners struggled for a year with software problems, then found out the LIDAR they paid for is never going to assist their driving and they need a new computer. Same with Rivian, all of today's reviews praise the R2, but ignore the troubles current owners have not just with the car but with getting service too.
Never buy a first year model and then keep an eye on owners forums before you buy.
The only thing I'd miss about the MY is the 7-seat feature. I love the fact that you can technically cram two more people in the car on the occasional times when you need to, without needing to drive a giant 7-seat boat. I wish more mid-size electric SUVs did the same.
The RAV4 EV capacity is so small, the electric engine so weak (cuts to gas well before highway speed), and the charge speed so slow, that in practice its a 100% gas car. Only a small number of disciplined owners are going to be able to run it as an EV most of the time, as its actually impractical to do so.
It’s a gas car, with greenwashing.
This is completely false. I own one. It goes up to the low 80s mph before the gas engine kicks in. Acceleration from a stop is sub 6 second 0-60. Hardly weak. Charges from fully empty to full in about 2.5 hours.
Mine gets a 40-45 mile all electric range. I drive 10-12k miles per year, and ignoring extended multi-day vacation road trips once every couple years, I fill up the tank 2-3 times per year.
Toyotas hybrid uses gas when you accelerate hard to get that 0-60, it’s a combined system horsepower. Unlike phevs, EREVs are only driven by the electric drive, and the gas system is a series generator, so the EV is fully capable & always doing 100% of the work. PHEVs fundamentally aren’t.
Anyway, the real world data from PHEV usage shows you are the outlier, most people don’t bother plugging them in regularly due to their limitations.
Again, false. You can clearly hear when the combustion engine kicks in and it's indicated in the dash. I can floor it in electric mode and it still gets up to 60 in around 6 seconds, no gas involved. Hybrid mode is probably slightly faster but it's a very marginal difference.
I don't believe your last statement because you've been wrong about everything else, and it doesn't make sense. Plugging it in is exactly as easy as literally any electric car, and it simply doesn't have the limitations you claim it does.
I don't know what you've been reading, but you should evaluate the veracity of it as a source and talk to actual owners. I know several others who have one and we're all quite happy with them and don't get gas often
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/oct/16/plug-in-...
“ The researchers attributed most of the gap to overestimates of the “utility factor” – the ratio of miles travelled in electric mode to the total miles travelled – finding that 27% of driving was done in electric mode even though official estimates assumed 84%. ”
Perhaps the rav4 prime @ 41ml max ev range is a better system than all the other low range PHEVs like it, and has better real world usage data than them. I doubt it though.
The 23-25 RAV4 prime has a recall where the instrument cluster goes blank. AFAIK the whole thing needs to be replaced. Sounds just like the Ioniq ICCU issues.
The RAV4 Prime is extremely hard to get if you live outside of SoCal and maybe a few other areas. I'm in the southeast and a few years ago the local dealer told me that this entire region is only allocated a few Prime's each quarter. Even today I've never seen one in the wild.
Not only that, but it sounds like dealerships are still hardcore ripping off people who want to buy a RAV4 Prime. $20k over MSRP, refusing to sell without add-ons / warranty, etc.
> It's an EV most of the time
Nowhere on the Toyota site did I see anything about range on battery only. Still, I wouldn't mind having one.
I settled for a refurbed Leaf and have only needed an ICE vehicle twice, because of cargo capacity, not range.
Toyota is claiming "up to 52 miles on a full charge" on the recently announced 2026 RAV4 PHEV [1]. For me that would be enough to cover the majority of my trips.
Looks like I was mistaken though and you can't actually buy the 2026 model yet (and the Toyota website still shows the older 2025 model). And as another commenter pointed out, it may not actually be possible to buy the older model either due to insufficient production.
[1] https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a69059379/2026-toyota-r...
I want Rivian to succeed, more competition is a good thing, but reading about the all the buy backs on r/rivian is disheartening.
Tip: do not get Rivian unless a service center is close.
I think insiders would tell you off the record not to get an R1, but that the R2s should be much more robust. Of course it's untested at this point, but hopefully that's the case.
The R2 was the first time I seriously thought about spending up on a vehicle.
It looks good.
But $45k++ is just wild to me. It seems like the market is undervaluing used EV’s, so hopefully the depreciation curve will bring these down to $30k in a couple years for us old-school folks who prefer not to have a $1000/mo car loan.
I'm a little confused why you think that's wild; It's pricing is inline with other BEV's in the Canadian market at least; it's comparing with the Model Y, the Equinox, the Blazer, the Mach e, the Ioniq 5, the EV6, the BZ4, and the Aryia.
Typically speaking you're going to spend $10,000 to $13,000 more then an equivalent gas car for a BEV vs a comparable gas car in Canada.
The 45k is a myth for now. The vehicles that have been reviewed so far are going to be $60k+ performance models. We'll see if they actually get down to 45k.
From the analysis I've seen with that drag coefficient, the 45k vehicle is going to have to have a range of 220 to 260 miles. Hardly something that will fly off the shelves.
> But $45k++ is just wild to me
It’s just surprising to me that this is surprising to anyone in 2026. New cars are no longer $20-30k in the US and haven’t been since 2021. Average transaction price is now $50k+, so if companies like Rivian that skip the dealership model charge $45k, it really isn’t that expensive. The only new cars under $30k are sedans and hatchbacks. And most of them start at almost $27-30k for base price not including all the bs dealership fees.
You can get a used EV for pretty cheap these days
ya same, i can't see spending as much as i did on my first tesla 5+ years ago, the depreciations just too steep, hopefully that holds for rivian too and i'll pick one up in a couple years the R2 is really nice.
That said, china BEV's are 1/2 the cost even accounting for import costs to the USA lol so sort of points toward a issue with US companies at the moment
Do they depreciate any worse than their gas counterparts? You’re also saving money on gas and maintenance - that’s gotta count for something, no?
In California with PG&E which most people have, no you don't save much. It's different if you can charge for free at work.
And yes EVs depreciated worse than any other vehicle.
> In California with PG&E which most people have,
Most people in California don’t have PG&E. Most of the land area in the northern 2/3 of the State or so is covered by PG&E, but people and land area aren't the same thing. Southern California Edison alone serves almost as many people as PG&E, and other smaller utilities, including public utilities like LADWP, SMUD, Silicon Valley Power, etc., serve another big chunk of the population.
Average price of a new vehicle in the US is $50,000. This is priced appropriately considering total cost of ownership delta against a combustion vehicle. Rivian needs more volume for prices to decline from manufacturing efficiency at scale.
https://www.axios.com/2024/12/19/cars-prices-inflation-suvs
A cursory search of the web shows that TCO for EVs in the US is higher than ICE for all but high mileage commuters. Wish it wasn't the case, but insurance alone is a 30% premium.
Model 3 TCO is very competitive for all sedans. But yes, there are a lot of luxury EVs and EVs with questionable reliability.
https://www.self.inc/info/expensive-cars-to-run/
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-maintenance/the-cos...
Insurance is a bear for Teslas. They cost a lot to repair.
The Model 3 Highland is super fun to drive. Maybe other EVs have this too. It's a very different experience to a similarly priced ICE car, and worth factoring in to the value proposition.
I specify Highland because the previous version was rattly and noisy enough to seriously detract from the zippy driving experience. Highland is nice.
NYT recently did a fantastic calculator. It isn't simple flat one or the other is cheaper. It takes into account buy vs lease, milage, local energy cost, length of ownership etc
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/upshot/ev-vs-gas-ca...
https://www.atlasevhub.com/weekly-digest/new-2025-update-on-...
Are you sure about that? The cost of repairing even minor collision damage on a Rivian is ridiculous.
Yup, R1S dented rear quarter, $55000 to repair, insurance totaled it out...
https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/1r19jxb/vivian_is_o...
How are insurers making any money insuring these things nowadays? 30% higher premiums are being mentioned elsewhere in the comments; that doesn't sound like enough!
People keep repeating this uncritically. There is a car-debt crisis, and wages haven't kept up with house/car costs.
We have one person saying "well in Californian wages..." and another saying essentially that 50K isn't a lot of money when the average SALARY is $66K/year.
I also believe this $50,000 stat is the mean car price which is likely to be pushed up by luxury car sales that cost 2-4x what a typical car costs, whereas a median price would give a better indication of what most people are actually spending. I did a quick Google search and wasn't able to find any data on median price, though.
> There is a car-debt crisis
To what degree is this caused by car prices versus Americans' compulsion to keep buying new cars? Anecdotally, the folks I know struggling with car payments are almost exclusively in the latter bucket. But I'm open to having my mind changed with data.
If people didn't buy new cars there would never be used cars.
Tell that to Cuba.
Not entirely true; there are at least the lease, rental, and commercial fleet markets supplying predictable inventory of used cars to the public market.
I have 2014 Tesla S which which I recently had drive unit and battery replaced ($20k total). my friends all think I am nuts, but they all have $1k+ payments (some for 72m) while I haven’t had a car payment since 2017 and won’t have another one till 2036 :)
What are you thinking about getting next?
How many miles?
Can they fix that web page? That was so awful to try to get any info.. Just scroll, scroll, scroll and still just a bunch of big pictures and no meaningful info.
This was half the reason I posted to HN, honestly. I've seen several recent examples of modern product pages which render awfully because they're trying to be "quirky".
Edit: look at this, scrolling an entire screen only to have a photo zoom by <1.25x: https://imgur.com/a/G2Hfe3Q
If you look at the R1 pages, you'll see those pages, though scroll-heavy, at least contain more useful info. I'm hoping that after R2 is actually available to order, that they'll update the page with more information. It's still early.
The scrolling was so bad I had to close the page when I was actually interested.
Anyone have insights on V2G or V2H capabilities?
If we can have open standards to allow my car to interoperate with my home batteries (Franklin, Enphase, Tesla Powerwall or others), we'll all be better off.
I saw on one of the review videos that you can get 2400W out of the R2
At 240v? Or thru a regular plug somehow?
Charger to load adapter.
HNers so grumpy you’d think this was an AI story submission…
Car manufacturer websites are one of the worst things on the web.
Haptic steering wheel thumb-wheels instead of actual buttons? Hell no. Full pass. And we're in the market for a vehicle like this in the next year or so, looking hard at Santa Fe Calligraphy, or Outback XT (similar size, similar price tag, AFAICT). No physical buttons = no sale.
I think you’re confusing “haptic” for “capacitive”. The wheels are real, physical controls with motors to give tactile feedback about the state of the UI. You can literally feel where the beginning and end of a list are, for example. It’s even better than traditional buttons.
The only problem is that there aren’t also physical controls for media and climate, which there should be. But for everything else, the thumb wheels are going to be awesome.
Marques Brownlee seems to like the wheels in his latest video review, FWIW.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfReqcUJfBU
And unsafe electronic door handles so your kids an unable to get out of the car in an emergency. https://old.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/1r1etyr/zack_demons...
That video makes it look like a physical button for the rear door manual release (albeit in a very hidden location)?
My BYD Sealion 7 has been an absolute joy.
Former R1S Gen 2 owner. Love this brand and I want to love the car, but the quality and constant maintenance issues were unacceptable.
Rattles, a door mirror motor breaking, doors that wouldn't shut properly, door weather stripping that fell off, a door that just wouldn't open, panel alignment issues, some kind of screaching-to-a-halt-and-terrifying-my-family auto-brake that Rivian never figured out after reviewing log data.
Oh and did I mention the fans or heat pump that sound like a ROCKET LAUNCHING?! At a park one time someone asked me if something was wrong with the vehicle. Nope, that's just the terrible fans they chose!
Insult to injury: someone rear ended me. Insurance "covered" it, but the local collision center --- my only option within 6 hours --- charges a 2X rate for EVs that State Farm would not cover. So a $14,000 MINOR FENDER DENT turned into $7,000 out of pocket for me.
If you look at /r/rivian, it's a near constant stream of issues. While Rivian did expedite service center visits for critical issues, other times repairs were months out. And as the R2 scales, SC growth will probably trail for a while, and so I really fear for the experience early adopters are in for.
I am rooting for them but for me personally I would not consider another Rivian.
I really reality wish rivian create a better self-driving technology soon and make a proper competition to tesla. Rivian cars are so nice and well designed.
Personally I'm in no rush to have self-driving capabilities in my car for at least another decade or so. I'm pretty happy with the current ADAS systems found in most cars like adaptive cruise control, lane keeping, and collision avoidance - and happy to just see incremental refinements to those systems.
At some point I want a self-driving car, but I'm happy to let Waymo and Tesla users test those systems for another 10+ years before I personally start using them.
The main thing I think about self-driving is if it truly were self-driving and you could sleep in the car while it drives to a destination overnight. Even if it were only highways. That would be really cool.
I can't sleep in a moving car anyway so that's of no value to me. If I'm going to be awake anyway then I might as well drive.
Are you buying a car in the next 10 years? I’m in a similar boat. But I’m irrelevant to the car market because I’m not buying until I can buy a Level 4 car.
I just bought a new car, and will probably buy another 1-2 cars in the next 10 years. My ideal upgrade path for cars is:
* I wanted my most recent purchase to be a PHEV
* I want my next purchase in roughly 5 years to be an EV (hopefully solid state batteries are available by then)
* In about 10 years I am hoping that I can buy a car that can self-drive most of my trips door-to-door
One thing I'll add is that I live in an area that gets a ton of snow, and current ADAS features are basically worthless in snow. They all turn off once the sensors get covered in ice, or when lines in the road are no longer visible. So I expect that even in new cars 10 years from now, I'll still need to take the wheel to drive during winter. Basically the features are nice when they work, but I'm still going to want to car that is first and foremost designed to be driven by humans.
> I live in an area that gets a ton of snow, and current ADAS features are basically worthless in snow
I live in Western Wyoming. While my Subaru won't drive itself in a blizzard, the radar is still useful.
My plan is to wait until I have something that can drive itself unsupervised in clear weather. Given that's Waymo today and maybe Tesla in ~5 years, I'm figuring something should be on the market that fits that bill within 10, which is how long I'll try to hold onto my gas-burnig Subaru.
What radar? I'm pretty sure that Subaru uses only cameras, no radar.
https://www.subaru.com/eyesight.html
Agreed! But I have to say, lane centering and adaptive cruise control have been amazing, coming from a previous vehicle with neither.
They're working on that. They're partnering with Nvidia and the R2 will get upgraded hardware for self driving in the fall. I couldn't tell from the website if making a reservation now lets you wait for that.
Self-driving seems like something where car companies shouldn’t all “reinvent the wheel.” A couple of the bigger car companies have projects on this, right? Maybe they could share.
It will probably follow the same pattern as ADAS. Bosch or someone will develop a package, sell it to car manufacturers, and it will become widespread
> A couple of the bigger car companies have projects on this, right? Maybe they could share
Why should they? We're already approaching geopolitical competition at this problem, given self-driving cars and self-driving self-propelled guns and the like are basically technological twins.
Honestly just decent smart cruise and lane keeping is good enough. Concentrate on making a solid long range reliable EV is the best way to compete with Tesla in the short to medium term.
No, sorry, I wouldn't buy EVs from any US company any more until they are matura enough that the model production surpasses at least Tesla Model S+X since released. Their reliability just suck. I don't want to waste my life again and again in those months-long waiting of service appointments, annoying issues every where and every day, hiring Lemon law lawyers and other BS.
Data points:
- one Model X
- one R1s
- My neighbor: one Model X, one R1t
- My collegemate: one Model X
I prefer Lucid Air ~ https://youtu.be/JxuB4H6uCq8
See also:
https://insideevs.com/reviews/786814/rivian-r2-prototype-fir...
https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/first-drive-2026-rivian-r...
"No CarPlay" is approximately where I stopped reading -- and I am literally their dream target audience - enough money to buy a second car, easily able to afford one of theirs, have solar on top of my house making my electricity cheap, like techy things.
They will either learn or ... not, I guess. I know I am not the only one. Nobody in my family would buy anything techy without my advice (and a modern EV is basically an iPad on wheels, so it qualifies as techy), and I will never ever give "yes" to a car without CarPlay
I'm tired of EVs using the electric usage to gut their interiors of $50k+ cars.
No CarPlay,UI with toxic translucent floating buttons, "evolving" steering wheel.
Have they learned nothing?
I like the Rivians I've seen. They're actually, y'know, a truck as opposed to a k-hole hallucination. You can lift stuff up and over the bed near the cab.
The R1 is a body on frame, so a traditional truck chassis.
This new R2 is a unibody- so more of a car, less so a truck
I'd rather have a slate.
https://www.slate.auto
That 300+ miles means nothing without more specs. What’s the size of the battery? The usual 130-140 kWh?
In addition, that's presumably not on the base model price point. Will be interesting to find out.
Length and width wise, it's smaller than a Model Y. It's deceptively styled to look a big boy car, but it's a matchbox. That's why no reviewers will show themselves or anyone else towering over it. It's for those who want a big car, but without all that space. Rivian calls it a mid-size SUV, but that is straight up bullshit.
If you want to see a reviewer next to it for scale, Doug DeMuro is 6'4" and has what you're looking for, from various angles over the course of the review. Looks like a reasonable size to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUl_0087dyM
"Matchbox" is rather hyperbolic and would better match the upcoming R3/R3X which is around the size of a VW Golf (though that still isn't that small… Honda Fits, kei cars, and Fiat 500s are smaller still).
It's about a foot longer than my crossover, which is about the same size as a RAV4 or CR-V and there's no way I could call it tiny.
Based on the published dimensions, it's almost the exact same size as a Toyota 4Runner - which I'd consider a midsize SUV.
Comparison image: https://www.reddit.com/r/RivianR2/comments/1inep90/r2_vs_4ru...
it's 1" shorter but it's not teardrop shaped so volume wise should be good
Wait … so you’re saying they want a small car but are in denial?
> It's deceptively styled to look a big boy car, but it's a matchbox. That's why no reviewers will show themselves or anyone else towering over it. It's for those who want a big car, but without all that space.
I miss the days when men looking to compensate would buy sports cars. It wasn't any less ridiculous, but at least they (edit: the cars) were better looking and more fun to drive.
If only those ridiculous guys who wanted something fun to drive had realized how much more fun they could have by making fun of people and feeling superior.
Yikes, someone's a bit oversensitive
I guess it depends on what they were compensating for. Up until the 80's and 90's at least there was more association of racing cars with road cars that you could buy.
So that would associate you with the (A man's manly-man maybe?) driver of that car.
But now race cars are not really much like a production road car. And those older men with money don't necessarily want to be like the ever younger drivers being employed to win races.
As you say, ridiculous, but at least the sports cars were cool.
"straight up bullshit" would be calling a 4runner-sized vehicle a "matchbox". Really highlights how ridiculous American's unnecessary lust is for massive vehicles.
No CarPlay, not interested.
I wish Rivian would stop trying to emulate Tesla on this front and add support for CarPlay. I don't want your UI.
I actually like the look of the Rivian and this is something I'm somewhat in the market for (or will be in the next few years) but I won't touch it without CarPlay.
as a tesla owner, all I can tell, carPlay is ugly child was born due to EU car makers, not capable of building proper infotainment system.
I want to drive, not constantly connect/accept privacy etc. Especially if that is a $100k+ car.
When i get into the car, the last thing I'd like to know how my car is getting connected to my phone, if there are any issues, especially if that is not my car.
I love how my car knows that in the morning i go to work, and wednesday evening i go to yoga, and put GPS, with best traffic options. 0 touch, all super seamless. No phones involved.
Apparently there's a aftermarket device that will add Android Auto / CarPlay support by selectively taking over the infotainment display:
https://evplay.io/shop/ev-play-for-rivian
(I can't vouch for it, just something I stumbled upon recently.)
I was on team CarPlay/AndroidAuto too. But I’m willing to give Rivian the benefit of the doubt
The challenge for them is can they integrate a better in-car experience
i have a rivian, and despite being a carplay fan before, i do not miss it. Carplay is a crutch for legacy autos who cant make software, so you just want to overlay a phone feed over their crap. But its very limited, its essentially a video overlay box and has terrible / non-existent integration with the cars smarts, like battery, range, HUD screens, advanced audio controls, etc etc. In my experience with carplay in other smart-ish cars (BMW X series) the carplay experience fights with the car OS constantly and is an awful incoherent experience. A well made car software solution, like the rivians(mostly), is a better experience overall imho.
I say this as someone who still loves having carplay on my other car, a subaru, because their software is atrocious.
i would say, give one a try you might change your mind.
CarPlay needs to get battery level
CarPlay supports that, the car just needs to pass it through. I believe Ford and Toyota both do.
Yes, copy FSD instead that no CarPlay cult.
> copy FSD instead
They are. It’s also subscription based, however.
(For what it’s worth, my friends with Rivian are fine with its phone interface. As are most people who own Tesla’s fine without CarPlay.)
With FSD , that is a very very capable system in 2026, You need real multi media for driving (once it's solved), for camping , movies during charging, and not phone somehow ugly slapped by some plastic holder to your car.