The main point that I did not see mentioned in this piece is that Deming should only be applied to MANUFACTURING environments, because things like engineering are too chaotic to identify processes or trends in the engineering itself, and trying to control those engineering processes with SPC doesn't really improve the quality of the engineering, it just adds stress, makes things take longer, and probably lowers the quality of the thing that is being engineered.
Obviously, if a quality issue is detected in manufacturing, there may be some steps that engineering could take to improve the manufacturing process and make things stable enough to obtain meaningful statistics. This is part of the Deming feedback process, and part of the System Engineering Life Cycle.
This is a very trivial treatment of Deming and I’m surprised how it makes its way to the top of HN.
The arc from Walter Shewhart to W.E. Deming is a bedrock foundation in an Industrial Engineering curriculum. These men paved the manufacturing process quality principles of modern industrialization. Drucker was about management science, truly an apples to oranges comparison.
Not sure about your opening thesis. The vast majority of employees work for privately held businesses and from personal experience of working in such companies, “management” by OKRs and the like is common in companies who are not listed on stock markets also.
It is also worth noting that US management is notoriously bad at the actual management. Toyota v. US car manufacturers did not look like a fair fight when Deming was in the ascendant, and it is hard to tell given the scales involved but it looks a lot like the US has been outmanoeuvred in all aspects of industry by the Asians.
US companies are generally a better bet though, because despite the handicap of being run by Americans, they are hosted in a country that generally believes in freedom and rule of law which means they have an unfair advantage even if they do a sub-par job of making the most of what they have.
The thing is, the Toyota methods relies on people on every level to work to improve processes. If you're an employee and know you'll be there 10 years down the line or even until you retire, you have an incentive to improve said processes.
Now check most Western companies: since the 70 / 80, everything is about reducing headcount. Lay-offs, outsourcing, offshoring, now the concept of spending your whole working life at the same company feels like a fever dream. So why would an employee try to improve things for the company when they know there is no future for them there? Better improve their own career and future prospect. So yeah, things like Kaizen are doomed to fail until things change.
that kind of ties in with the article's thesis; deming's approach is more scientific in the classic sense of taking observations and using those to build up your mental models, whereas drucker proposes a one size fits all recipe for managing roadmaps.
Not necessarily limited "intellect", but rather limited background knowledge.
Deming requires quite a bit of knowledge and understanding in failure/success modes. The core tenet of Deming is that every output is a result of some process and, therefore, output is controlled by controlling* the process itself. Look at your process and tackle failure modes in this priority list.
Drucker, on the other hand, puts the process under the fog of war and basically says deploy pressure on process outputs and let the process adjust itself. It requires much less understanding behind the processes to make sense.
* - Process control in Deming is mostly about variability.
Obviously the truth is messier than that, and it's worth noting that Drucker later recognised the toxicity of Management by Objectives and disavowed it. Quite a bit of OKR literature is devoted to avoiding it becoming its progenitor, MBO.
Worth adding that Deming (after Shewhart) recognised two kinds of variation: special cause (specific the work item in question) and common cause (an artifact of the process). That knowledge work involves a lot more of the former than does manufacturing does not excuse inattention to the latter.
The main point that I did not see mentioned in this piece is that Deming should only be applied to MANUFACTURING environments, because things like engineering are too chaotic to identify processes or trends in the engineering itself, and trying to control those engineering processes with SPC doesn't really improve the quality of the engineering, it just adds stress, makes things take longer, and probably lowers the quality of the thing that is being engineered.
Obviously, if a quality issue is detected in manufacturing, there may be some steps that engineering could take to improve the manufacturing process and make things stable enough to obtain meaningful statistics. This is part of the Deming feedback process, and part of the System Engineering Life Cycle.
This is a very trivial treatment of Deming and I’m surprised how it makes its way to the top of HN. The arc from Walter Shewhart to W.E. Deming is a bedrock foundation in an Industrial Engineering curriculum. These men paved the manufacturing process quality principles of modern industrialization. Drucker was about management science, truly an apples to oranges comparison.
Fundamentally stock markets won the world of business, so everything has a horizon of a financial quarter.
Hence, every action of a company needs to be measured against the upcoming quarterly results.
OKRs et al are great at that.
Who cares about quality/sustainabily. We just want the stock go wheeeeee and get our bonuses.
Not sure about your opening thesis. The vast majority of employees work for privately held businesses and from personal experience of working in such companies, “management” by OKRs and the like is common in companies who are not listed on stock markets also.
It is also worth noting that US management is notoriously bad at the actual management. Toyota v. US car manufacturers did not look like a fair fight when Deming was in the ascendant, and it is hard to tell given the scales involved but it looks a lot like the US has been outmanoeuvred in all aspects of industry by the Asians.
US companies are generally a better bet though, because despite the handicap of being run by Americans, they are hosted in a country that generally believes in freedom and rule of law which means they have an unfair advantage even if they do a sub-par job of making the most of what they have.
Exceptions abound in the details.
The thing is, the Toyota methods relies on people on every level to work to improve processes. If you're an employee and know you'll be there 10 years down the line or even until you retire, you have an incentive to improve said processes.
Now check most Western companies: since the 70 / 80, everything is about reducing headcount. Lay-offs, outsourcing, offshoring, now the concept of spending your whole working life at the same company feels like a fever dream. So why would an employee try to improve things for the company when they know there is no future for them there? Better improve their own career and future prospect. So yeah, things like Kaizen are doomed to fail until things change.
Fortunately, once we impose a wealth tax on corporations we can solve this. Billionaire corporations should not exist.
Maybe it’s my limited intellect but I found Drucker to be a lot easier to understand.
Where Deming reads like a science paper, Drucker reads like an installation guide.
that kind of ties in with the article's thesis; deming's approach is more scientific in the classic sense of taking observations and using those to build up your mental models, whereas drucker proposes a one size fits all recipe for managing roadmaps.
Not necessarily limited "intellect", but rather limited background knowledge.
Deming requires quite a bit of knowledge and understanding in failure/success modes. The core tenet of Deming is that every output is a result of some process and, therefore, output is controlled by controlling* the process itself. Look at your process and tackle failure modes in this priority list.
Drucker, on the other hand, puts the process under the fog of war and basically says deploy pressure on process outputs and let the process adjust itself. It requires much less understanding behind the processes to make sense.
* - Process control in Deming is mostly about variability.
So following Drucker would be the cause of a lot of "every metric becomes a target" in management?
Obviously the truth is messier than that, and it's worth noting that Drucker later recognised the toxicity of Management by Objectives and disavowed it. Quite a bit of OKR literature is devoted to avoiding it becoming its progenitor, MBO.
Worth adding that Deming (after Shewhart) recognised two kinds of variation: special cause (specific the work item in question) and common cause (an artifact of the process). That knowledge work involves a lot more of the former than does manufacturing does not excuse inattention to the latter.