I'd be interested in knowing what the CO2 emissions were from these. You still need to feed the yeast, so you'll have the CO2 emissions involved in growing a crop associated with this. And if you look at the chart in the OP, you'll see that grain production is about half the CO2 emissions of milk. That's likely part of the milk CO2 production accounting.
In addition, you'll need more cleaning/sterilization/mixing. I'd guess that it's lower, but I wonder how much lower.
And then there's the other products that generally get thrown into the mix to make up for things like missing fats. For example, a vegan cheese based on bacteria will often include coconut oil, probably to get the same fat profile.
Whey is an interesting product in general because it's a waste product of cheese making.
But to put this in context, the average American family’s carbon footprint per year is roughly 50,000 kg, and one flight is usually on the order of >1,000 kg, or ~300kg/700 pounds of milk, assuming that 3kg CO2 per kg milk high end figure. So if you like milk, there are probably other places you can cut first.
Does seem like a lot of carbon for a kg of plastic, though, how does that compare to normal plastic’s carbon footprint?
I remember when people still knew what milk was ... and what was not milk.
That was before multi-billion-dollar companies came up with marketing strategies that manipulated people into not understanding what milk was, instead making them believe that milk is whatever they tell people.
Usually, the reaction to this is "Well, language and the meaning of words change." ... Sure, but that argument comes in complete ignorance of the fact that it only happened, because people with too much money and power can manipulate millions into believing whatever these millions of people are supposed to believe.
Thus now anything can be milk, as long as some profit-oriented company decides that people shall call it milk.
This practise has become the norm to a degree that people will not only generally accept it, but also generally defend it. Pure madness.
To be clear, Perfect Day doesn't make "milk" like plant-based milks (think almond "milk", oat "milk", etc). They bioengineered some yeast to grow whey protein directly. The milk they make (made?) probably wouldn't be considered "milk" in the strict sense (they had to get the fat and sugars from plants), but there's really not a good reason to distinguish between "whey protein from cows" and "whey protein from yeast" when it's the same stuff.
The large diary producers are forcing things that everyone understand what is — “Oat milk” and “Almond milk” — to be called “Oat drink” and “Almond drink”. New terms for things that have existed for decades.
Really, we should be calling the OG milk “cow milk” and let the good times roll.
Big milk have been pushing questionable health research and narratives for cow milk for quite some time.
All this coming from someone (me) who drinks 0,5L of cow milk every day.
Yes, yeast milk is milk too. Just like coconut milk.
Where are these emissions coming from? For instance, if this is counting the emissions involved in logistics, none of that inherently or necessarily requires greenhouse emissions—you can electrify trains, tanker trucks, and refrigerators.
If this is counting the methane emissions of the cow itself, that’s not a fair or complete accounting. The cow produces methane in her digestive system after eating grass, and the grass grows by, among other things, extracting CO2 from the air. Then the cow burps methane, the methane combines with atmospheric oxygen and breaks down to CO2 and water, and you have a closed loop; the cow cannot belch more carbon than she eats, and that carbon came from the air in the first place.
Part of the problem with waste management is that we don't really put it in the soil. Your household garbage is mostly biodegradable, but if it ends up buried in a lined pit under tons of other garbage, even paper and orange peels will probably sit there for centuries. I'm not sure it makes much of a difference what kinds or quantities of plastic end up buried in the landfill.
I think the solutions here are more on the supply side than the landfill side. The question there is what are we trying to solve.
Energy use? Most alternative packaging materials are energy-intensive too, so it's less about plastic and more about retail and consumer preferences to have everything individually wrapped and packaged in bags or boxes with colorful graphics, nutrition information, and so on.
Environmental pollution? There, the problem is the plastic that doesn't end up in a landfill. Including our "recycling" shipped overseas.
It still biodegrades within the pit. In fact, that's actually a problem because it can generate fire starting temperatures! (Crazy I know) It's also a problem because a part of biodegrading is producing CO2 and CH4.
But I generally agree. The big issue here is we as a society have moved away from biodegradable packing and distribution. I get it, plastic prevents waste and mold. That's why we use it. It's also dirt cheap. It's a byproduct of oil refining (literally cheaper than water).
The ultimate solution to the plastic problem is making plastic more expensive, and the way to tackle that is by reducing oil consumption. Fortunately, that's sort of just naturally happening.
I’m hoping this is a first step toward using some other protein(s). There are some fairly high protein plants like chickpeas and soy that are less intensive to produce than milk.
> Plastic production has climbed from 2 million tonnes in 1950 to 475 million tonnes by 2022, roughly equivalent to the weight of 250 million cars.
That's 60 kg/person/year of plastic, which is a lot. Or about 4800 kg for a person living 70 years. Obviously, there is wide variation in this number across the human population.
1) Heat 1 cup milk, not to boiling.
2) Add 4 tablespoons vinegar. Stir for a few minutes.
3) Strain out curds. Squeeze to remove as much liquid as possible.
4) Form into a shape or press into a mold, let dry.
It's in that small category of objects that seems like plastic, but are still edible. Tastes bad, though.
sounds like bakelite to me. you can get a disposable polymer from polylactide as well, and it can be obtained from silage (so-called green refinery, although the term seems to have been broadened in the last decade)
PLA is also biodegradable and cheap but it does not biodegrade that fast, certainly does not vanish in 13 weeks. Im not sure what the usecase is here but I'm sure it could have some uses.
PLA does break down naturally, it is a good source of carbon for many types of bacteria. It takes a long time, and happens more quickly in industrial composters where it's shredded to microplastics first but it does happen.
Take a look at something people have been using for eons with saltwater aquariums: bio-pellets. These are tiny beads of PLA that are fluidized to allow high turnover of water through the PLA, this encourages bacteria to colonize and digest the PLA, then break off and move into the water column (the bacteria) and be removed by the protein skimmer. Because of the red field ratio, each 106 mols of carbon from PLA removed this way also removes 16 mols of nitrate, which is a major pollutant in aquariums. It also removes 1 mol of phosphate, a major pollutant as well, but that's not significant. Phosphate is best done by fluidized reactors with ferric oxide
I agree. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galalith is made of casein and formaldehyde. It was popular 100 years ago and there are plenty of pieces still around. I searched formaldehyde in the article but I din't find it, I'm not sure if they hide it or they are using a very different method.
Do you have any evidence for that? From what I understand, the corn to ethanol pipeline was created to keep corn prices from dropping below what the farm bill would pay for.
I've said before that we need a short term plastic that completely dissolves into harmless organic compounds that can then be forgotten in nature with no ill effect. 13 weeks is just about right!
But then I got out in the real world, and noticed plastics just falling apart all around -- including stuff that is not intended to fail and which is otherwise still within its useful life.
Like: One year, I bought some used pickle buckets from a local burger joint to use as planters. Within 6 months, they were falling apart: It was easy to break them apart in chunks with my bare hands.
Or the plastics used for cars: They often eventually turn brittle and fall apart, whether interior or exterior. Plastic lenses on USDM cars turn foggy and useless; some types of wire insulation disintegrate. (If we want to talk about environmental cost, can we also talk about the impact of building a new car?)
In some areas, we once used polybutylene water pipes. These tended to fail and damage homes. There was even a billion-dollar lawsuit about it in the 1990s. It was not good.
Meanwhile, a red Solo cup or a plastic drinking straw, once landfilled, will be there a very long time -- but eventually, they will also decompose.
And the UHMW cutting boards I use in my kitchen will probably outlive my grandchildren's grandchildren before they start falling apart on their own accord.
Plastic isn't always forever, even though some people seem fond of saying that it is. Plastic isn't necessarily cheap, either, even though "cheap plastic" is a common expression -- some plastics are very expensive and resoundingly durable (and there's only partial overlap of these two qualities on a Venn diagram).
The truth is somewhere in the middle, but is rather nuanced and variable and difficult to pin down in absolutes.
But plastic (as a noun) does, broadly speaking, have the material property of being plastic (as an adjective).
But molecularly, plastic is around forever. A wooden bucket will eventually breakdown to not be wood at all anymore. Products made from plastic is not what lasts forever, the plastic itself is.
The defining characteristic of plastic would seem to be the definition of the word from which they are named. That is, that plastics are plastic. It means they are easily shaped, molded, formed, or extruded.
There are a lot of plastics that are disposable. The first plastics over 100 years ago were made from milk (I suspect the Romans knew the process - it wasn't industrially useful though). Many decomposable plastics have been made over the year. The PLA commonly used in 3d printers is decomposable (in the right environment).
Oil based plastics are generally a lot cheaper than the above though, and they are typically not decomposable. Depending on your use this can be good or bad (I don't want my plastic plumbing pipes to decompose, but other plastics are used up and I want them to decompose)
What? Plastic's defining characteristic is plasticity -- how moldable, shapeable, extrudeable, pressable, etc it is.
Also, one of the most widely used plastics is PLA, polylactic acid. Which is made from lactic acid from sugarcane, beets, or cassava, and is biodegradable.
Milk is surprisingly intensive in terms of greenhouse emissions. It is somewhere around 1 to 3 kg CO2-equivalent per kg of milk.
Milk protein costs around 95 kg of CO2-equivalent emissions per kg of protein, which is apparently what was used in the production of this plastic [1]
[0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002203022...
[1] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/ghg-per-protein-poore
It's possible to use manufacture whey protein without cows:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whey_protein#Microbial_product...
It's not theoretical either. You can buy vegan dairy products made from this method today.
I'd be interested in knowing what the CO2 emissions were from these. You still need to feed the yeast, so you'll have the CO2 emissions involved in growing a crop associated with this. And if you look at the chart in the OP, you'll see that grain production is about half the CO2 emissions of milk. That's likely part of the milk CO2 production accounting.
In addition, you'll need more cleaning/sterilization/mixing. I'd guess that it's lower, but I wonder how much lower.
And then there's the other products that generally get thrown into the mix to make up for things like missing fats. For example, a vegan cheese based on bacteria will often include coconut oil, probably to get the same fat profile.
Whey is an interesting product in general because it's a waste product of cheese making.
But to put this in context, the average American family’s carbon footprint per year is roughly 50,000 kg, and one flight is usually on the order of >1,000 kg, or ~300kg/700 pounds of milk, assuming that 3kg CO2 per kg milk high end figure. So if you like milk, there are probably other places you can cut first.
Does seem like a lot of carbon for a kg of plastic, though, how does that compare to normal plastic’s carbon footprint?
>... >1,000 kg, or 700 pounds of milk
Why do you mix your units like that.
Because I'm American, so I use metric in scientific contexts, and weird medieval units in everyday ones :-)
I'll edit a bit for clarity for you all who live in more consistent places.
But we can also produce milk from yeast now. Perfect Day, for example, produces milk without cows.
So it's not out of the question we could scale that up to meet plastics demand.
I remember when people still knew what milk was ... and what was not milk.
That was before multi-billion-dollar companies came up with marketing strategies that manipulated people into not understanding what milk was, instead making them believe that milk is whatever they tell people.
Usually, the reaction to this is "Well, language and the meaning of words change." ... Sure, but that argument comes in complete ignorance of the fact that it only happened, because people with too much money and power can manipulate millions into believing whatever these millions of people are supposed to believe.
Thus now anything can be milk, as long as some profit-oriented company decides that people shall call it milk.
This practise has become the norm to a degree that people will not only generally accept it, but also generally defend it. Pure madness.
To be clear, Perfect Day doesn't make "milk" like plant-based milks (think almond "milk", oat "milk", etc). They bioengineered some yeast to grow whey protein directly. The milk they make (made?) probably wouldn't be considered "milk" in the strict sense (they had to get the fat and sugars from plants), but there's really not a good reason to distinguish between "whey protein from cows" and "whey protein from yeast" when it's the same stuff.
The large diary producers are forcing things that everyone understand what is — “Oat milk” and “Almond milk” — to be called “Oat drink” and “Almond drink”. New terms for things that have existed for decades.
Really, we should be calling the OG milk “cow milk” and let the good times roll.
Big milk have been pushing questionable health research and narratives for cow milk for quite some time.
All this coming from someone (me) who drinks 0,5L of cow milk every day.
Yes, yeast milk is milk too. Just like coconut milk.
Where are these emissions coming from? For instance, if this is counting the emissions involved in logistics, none of that inherently or necessarily requires greenhouse emissions—you can electrify trains, tanker trucks, and refrigerators.
If this is counting the methane emissions of the cow itself, that’s not a fair or complete accounting. The cow produces methane in her digestive system after eating grass, and the grass grows by, among other things, extracting CO2 from the air. Then the cow burps methane, the methane combines with atmospheric oxygen and breaks down to CO2 and water, and you have a closed loop; the cow cannot belch more carbon than she eats, and that carbon came from the air in the first place.
> vanishes in soil in just 13 weeks.
Part of the problem with waste management is that we don't really put it in the soil. Your household garbage is mostly biodegradable, but if it ends up buried in a lined pit under tons of other garbage, even paper and orange peels will probably sit there for centuries. I'm not sure it makes much of a difference what kinds or quantities of plastic end up buried in the landfill.
I think the solutions here are more on the supply side than the landfill side. The question there is what are we trying to solve.
Energy use? Most alternative packaging materials are energy-intensive too, so it's less about plastic and more about retail and consumer preferences to have everything individually wrapped and packaged in bags or boxes with colorful graphics, nutrition information, and so on.
Environmental pollution? There, the problem is the plastic that doesn't end up in a landfill. Including our "recycling" shipped overseas.
It still biodegrades within the pit. In fact, that's actually a problem because it can generate fire starting temperatures! (Crazy I know) It's also a problem because a part of biodegrading is producing CO2 and CH4.
But I generally agree. The big issue here is we as a society have moved away from biodegradable packing and distribution. I get it, plastic prevents waste and mold. That's why we use it. It's also dirt cheap. It's a byproduct of oil refining (literally cheaper than water).
The ultimate solution to the plastic problem is making plastic more expensive, and the way to tackle that is by reducing oil consumption. Fortunately, that's sort of just naturally happening.
I’m hoping this is a first step toward using some other protein(s). There are some fairly high protein plants like chickpeas and soy that are less intensive to produce than milk.
Are proteins fungible? I thought different protein sources provided different amino acids.
> Plastic production has climbed from 2 million tonnes in 1950 to 475 million tonnes by 2022, roughly equivalent to the weight of 250 million cars.
That's 60 kg/person/year of plastic, which is a lot. Or about 4800 kg for a person living 70 years. Obviously, there is wide variation in this number across the human population.
Probably wants the "this" from the original title putting back on
Worth noting that casein is a very very old technology - people have known how to use it (well, milk) to make a type of glue for thousands of years.
sounds like bakelite to me. you can get a disposable polymer from polylactide as well, and it can be obtained from silage (so-called green refinery, although the term seems to have been broadened in the last decade)
PLA is also biodegradable and cheap but it does not biodegrade that fast, certainly does not vanish in 13 weeks. Im not sure what the usecase is here but I'm sure it could have some uses.
PLA does not break down naturally. It will last centuries in the environment.
PLA does break down naturally, it is a good source of carbon for many types of bacteria. It takes a long time, and happens more quickly in industrial composters where it's shredded to microplastics first but it does happen.
Take a look at something people have been using for eons with saltwater aquariums: bio-pellets. These are tiny beads of PLA that are fluidized to allow high turnover of water through the PLA, this encourages bacteria to colonize and digest the PLA, then break off and move into the water column (the bacteria) and be removed by the protein skimmer. Because of the red field ratio, each 106 mols of carbon from PLA removed this way also removes 16 mols of nitrate, which is a major pollutant in aquariums. It also removes 1 mol of phosphate, a major pollutant as well, but that's not significant. Phosphate is best done by fluidized reactors with ferric oxide
Luckily, producing milk is completely environmentally friendly!
/scnr
The paper doesn't talk about thermal properties, which is a shame. Would be good to know if this is a thermoplastic.
New subscription model coming to plastics! Products last only 13 weeks.
I know - long lived plastics are bad. We need some kind of middle ground thats as cheap as the current plastics and doesn't last as long.
Its called paper, wood, glass, ceramics or metal depending how long you want it to be around for and what you are putting in it.
Only lasts 13 weeks in soil. It presumably lasts a whole lot longer when you don't bury it in the ground.
I agree. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galalith is made of casein and formaldehyde. It was popular 100 years ago and there are plenty of pieces still around. I searched formaldehyde in the article but I din't find it, I'm not sure if they hide it or they are using a very different method.
We go through a lot of single-use plastics.
How long before a bacteria learns it can eat this and starts breaking it down much more quickly?
Is this going to drive up the price of milk? Corn went up when we started making ethanol from it for gasoline.
Do you have any evidence for that? From what I understand, the corn to ethanol pipeline was created to keep corn prices from dropping below what the farm bill would pay for.
I've said before that we need a short term plastic that completely dissolves into harmless organic compounds that can then be forgotten in nature with no ill effect. 13 weeks is just about right!
>vanishes in 13 weeks
Well then it's not plastic is it? Plastic's defining characteristic is that it is not decomposable
That's what they told me in school, too.
But then I got out in the real world, and noticed plastics just falling apart all around -- including stuff that is not intended to fail and which is otherwise still within its useful life.
Like: One year, I bought some used pickle buckets from a local burger joint to use as planters. Within 6 months, they were falling apart: It was easy to break them apart in chunks with my bare hands.
Or the plastics used for cars: They often eventually turn brittle and fall apart, whether interior or exterior. Plastic lenses on USDM cars turn foggy and useless; some types of wire insulation disintegrate. (If we want to talk about environmental cost, can we also talk about the impact of building a new car?)
In some areas, we once used polybutylene water pipes. These tended to fail and damage homes. There was even a billion-dollar lawsuit about it in the 1990s. It was not good.
Meanwhile, a red Solo cup or a plastic drinking straw, once landfilled, will be there a very long time -- but eventually, they will also decompose.
And the UHMW cutting boards I use in my kitchen will probably outlive my grandchildren's grandchildren before they start falling apart on their own accord.
Plastic isn't always forever, even though some people seem fond of saying that it is. Plastic isn't necessarily cheap, either, even though "cheap plastic" is a common expression -- some plastics are very expensive and resoundingly durable (and there's only partial overlap of these two qualities on a Venn diagram).
The truth is somewhere in the middle, but is rather nuanced and variable and difficult to pin down in absolutes.
But plastic (as a noun) does, broadly speaking, have the material property of being plastic (as an adjective).
>Plastic isn't always forever
But molecularly, plastic is around forever. A wooden bucket will eventually breakdown to not be wood at all anymore. Products made from plastic is not what lasts forever, the plastic itself is.
The defining characteristic of plastic would seem to be the definition of the word from which they are named. That is, that plastics are plastic. It means they are easily shaped, molded, formed, or extruded.
There are a lot of plastics that are disposable. The first plastics over 100 years ago were made from milk (I suspect the Romans knew the process - it wasn't industrially useful though). Many decomposable plastics have been made over the year. The PLA commonly used in 3d printers is decomposable (in the right environment).
Oil based plastics are generally a lot cheaper than the above though, and they are typically not decomposable. Depending on your use this can be good or bad (I don't want my plastic plumbing pipes to decompose, but other plastics are used up and I want them to decompose)
> Plastic's defining characteristic is that it is not decomposable
Behold, a plastic! holds up a rock
What? Plastic's defining characteristic is plasticity -- how moldable, shapeable, extrudeable, pressable, etc it is.
Also, one of the most widely used plastics is PLA, polylactic acid. Which is made from lactic acid from sugarcane, beets, or cassava, and is biodegradable.