For all the "My Banking Apps don't work", I'd raise one question:
Do you really need access to banking apps on the go? I get that it can be handy and maybe you legit do, but I'd wager most people don't really do. If you can pay by phone you can pay by card and the card has less potentially to weirdly break.
And if your bank demands a phone app to be used, you can always have a cheap stock android lying around at home. Can't get stolen or lost. Doesn't give big G any data on you, because that phone doesn't have anything but those apps.
But I also understand "just have a second phone" is not a tempting idea for many people. I am not much of a phone person, so I'm not a good case study, but it works fine for me.
I cannot speak for every country but in the Netherlands, your banking app also serves as a 2FA instrument if you place orders with your credit card. A pop-up notification will ask you to confirm if you have indeed placed the order. While I will admit that it is possible to predict such use cases and take your phone along, it is becoming a bit difficult to predict what part of some account or service's login flow will require a confirmation with your device.
Mobile apps are how most people do banking these days, and it shows. In my experience banking apps are a lot more maintained and modern than classic online banking interfaces.
So you're not just sacrificing "on the go" banking, you are likely sacrificing use of the best interface your bank offers.
TBH What I wanted from the world is AOSP distribution. Built similarly to GrapheneOS in terms of distribution, ease of install. But I just don't feel I need all these privacy enhancements and stuff, I'm perfectly fine with ordinary system compiled from Google sources with proper update schedule. Also I don't want to see anything installed out of the box, except maybe single app to install AOSP apps, F-Droid, Play Store, just APK from the given URL. So basically almost empty mobile OS which user fully customizes, no predefined choices, no custom patches.
I know very little about lineageos. Their website contains very few docs, so I don't really understand what's this project is about. They don't mention Pixel 10, so I guess it's not supported.
GrapheneOS website in comparison contains a lot of things to read, so after a hour of thorough reading I had good impression what GrapheneOS is.
Are the websites really that different? (i use iphone) I checked both homepages and impression I got is that Lineage is android that focuses on long term support (the name points that out) and Graphene is not android (ok?) and it's focused on security.
Your Pixel 10 is not in Lineage devices so i would also assume it's not supported. (maybe it's too new?)
While this is good news, the cynical in me is waiting for Motorola GrapheneOS, with the changes that make it actually relevant for normies, and then the whole idea goes the way of netbooks.
I’ve been using GrapheneOS for a couple of years now, and it’s been perfect for me. Contactless payments used to work fine, but then my bank switched to Google Wallet. Since then, I’ve just kept a physical card tucked behind my phone case so I can use it when needed.
I admire the de-Googled approach of GrapheneOS. As a lawyer, privacy concerns resonate with me too. I love the rebellious attitude of tech that presents an alternative choice in an overly duopolistic market.
That said, I wouldn't last 8.4 months like the author. Even though he admits to some Google app usage, I'm in too deep — I'd never be able to get out. But if I get the chance, I'd like to try it on a secondary phone. Those solid black icons are one reason. They look cool.
Not wanting to discourage you from trying Graphene, but the icons are probably not a good reason. Can always install an alternative launcher and icon pack on stock android.
Running Graphene for a long time now, everything works perfectly fine, but I don't do mobile banking.
Personally I would just love Apple to be forced by governments to open up their hardware by releasing complete documentation of their hardware and allowing to install another os or dual boot. iPhones hardware is really good and would love booting Linux on theses. And then force every services company to provide an API to their services so we have an alternative to their app. I guess Motorola partnering with GrapheneOS will not change anything in this space because contactless payments and some apps will not work and fundamentally because the sales will be way below mainstream brands like Apple/Samsung. Governments need to step up here.
so use a card? there is always something. breaking free is never going to be without ANY inconveniences, it's how they build their moat after all. okay so once those two works works, one goes to the next thing on the list; "I wish I could switch but I can't use gboard on it and the swiping is 0.5% better than the stock keyboard so it's unusable to me"
(you can use gboard, that was just an example - but it's always these small inconveniences, just like in the chrome vs firefox threads)
In Europe? Debit cards. Hardly anyone uses a credit card in a supermarket.
If I'm going out I'll have both a debit card and cash in my wallet. Given that large scale outages of payment networks are no longer theoretical but to be expected, not carrying cash is just silly. Since I have a wallet in any case, I see no point in using contactless payments on a smartphone — I usually don't take it with me when getting groceries.
I have no idea if I can even do contactless phone payments on GrapheneOS, but since everything else works (including my bank's app), I don't care.
I think it's healthy for a population to not have as part of day-to-day life to pay with credit, effectively paying with money you might not actually have, going into debt. How many US citizens are crippled by credit card debt, and the interest on it?
You can pay with credit card as a convenience + fraud protection mechanism without ever paying interest by just paying your bill off every month.
When chip and pin was first rolled out, Europeans were shocked by the low security of swipe cards in the US. The reason that wasn’t an issue for Americans was (and still is) that credit cards have excellent fraud protections.
If someone steals my credit card, it is the bank’s problem, not mine.
The risk of paying by debit card on a regular basis is unfathomable to me, even with fancy tech to try to make it secure.
I wasn't suggesting individuals shouldn't be able to pay with credit. I have a credit card myself, which I use when I can't pay with debit. I was suggesting that for a population as a whole, having paying with credit being so commonplace leads to crippling debt issues, which as far as I can believe "the reports", is an issue in the US.
Your comment on the risk of paying with debit cards surprised me. I've never considered it a risk at all. It made me realize that perhaps here (in the Netherlands) we have consumer protection systems in place, in addition to the payment systems, that prevent any issues.
It's not about credit/debit, it's about phone/card. Americans tend to use "credit card" as a generic term for payment cards.
And yes, phone NFC payment is one of those technically unnecessary conveniences that's really easy to get used to. You probably already have your phone out or at least accessible in like one second, paying with it instead of pulling out your wallet and finding a card or even cash is just sooo nice. I hate that I've gotten this used to it.
That being said, you can still get NFC payment on a rooted or reflashed phone. Instead of Google Wallet, find a bank or card provider that has their own app. I use the Curve "proxy card" and it works fine.
Wallet was one of the reasons I abandoned my well working lineageOS phone on a redmi note 10 as it was a cat and mouse game over month. I feel as long as a vendor does not support an os and Google is so hostile against modifications, it is not a good feeling that they can pull the rug at any time. I was multiple times in the situation when I wanted to pay with the phone and was in the end rejected. I think we need to take NFC wallets and esims away from phone/os vendors again. A seperate NFC enabled vendor independent trusted platform would be IMHO the way to go. Especially with ID wallets and universal bank wallets on the way in Europe. This that they cannot use security as a killer argument to keep us in their walled gardens. I know the solution is cards or a second phone, but affordance counts.
Contactless payments are often a problem, but adding a card for Uber (directly in the app) should work. I use it frequently, along with Grab, Bolt, Maxim, etc.
good writeup. I've been meaning to set this up for myself too. I keep uninstalling apps from my phone every other day because if I use something very little, I am afraid the app is collecting data from my usage in some way or the other.
I have a fairly new ish Pixel phone, do you think I'll be able to go back if I don't like it?
Similar to GrapheneOS, Google also has a web installer (linked from the above section). Just in case you didn't know - both installing GrapheneOS and recovering the stock OS will remove all data as well.
Yes, it's super simple to install GrapheneOS and to revert to the factory OS on Google Pixels. It is done from Chrome browser with phone connected via USB cable, no need to install anything. Of course when you'll switch, you'll lose all data on your phone, basically like factory reset (but esims survive I think).
For all the "My Banking Apps don't work", I'd raise one question:
Do you really need access to banking apps on the go? I get that it can be handy and maybe you legit do, but I'd wager most people don't really do. If you can pay by phone you can pay by card and the card has less potentially to weirdly break.
And if your bank demands a phone app to be used, you can always have a cheap stock android lying around at home. Can't get stolen or lost. Doesn't give big G any data on you, because that phone doesn't have anything but those apps.
But I also understand "just have a second phone" is not a tempting idea for many people. I am not much of a phone person, so I'm not a good case study, but it works fine for me.
I cannot speak for every country but in the Netherlands, your banking app also serves as a 2FA instrument if you place orders with your credit card. A pop-up notification will ask you to confirm if you have indeed placed the order. While I will admit that it is possible to predict such use cases and take your phone along, it is becoming a bit difficult to predict what part of some account or service's login flow will require a confirmation with your device.
Luckily, all/most Dutch bank apps work on GrapheneOS.
(Not saying that you claimed they didn't.)
Mobile apps are how most people do banking these days, and it shows. In my experience banking apps are a lot more maintained and modern than classic online banking interfaces.
So you're not just sacrificing "on the go" banking, you are likely sacrificing use of the best interface your bank offers.
I've used GrapheneOS for years at this point and all my banking apps work fine. It's just definitely worth a try.
I've had a government app not working once and one of the devs actually showed up on the GrapheneOS forums and now it does.
I need my main one for paying friends back and for authorising payments online. Luckily it works without google. The only real app I miss is Uber
TBH What I wanted from the world is AOSP distribution. Built similarly to GrapheneOS in terms of distribution, ease of install. But I just don't feel I need all these privacy enhancements and stuff, I'm perfectly fine with ordinary system compiled from Google sources with proper update schedule. Also I don't want to see anything installed out of the box, except maybe single app to install AOSP apps, F-Droid, Play Store, just APK from the given URL. So basically almost empty mobile OS which user fully customizes, no predefined choices, no custom patches.
tbh it sounds like you do want grapheneos :p
it's very minimal ootb and has a better update schedule than 95% of oems (alas)
you can install google play store & services from the app store, and pretty much everything will just work as you might imagine
So what is wrong with lineage in this case?
I know very little about lineageos. Their website contains very few docs, so I don't really understand what's this project is about. They don't mention Pixel 10, so I guess it's not supported.
GrapheneOS website in comparison contains a lot of things to read, so after a hour of thorough reading I had good impression what GrapheneOS is.
Are the websites really that different? (i use iphone) I checked both homepages and impression I got is that Lineage is android that focuses on long term support (the name points that out) and Graphene is not android (ok?) and it's focused on security.
Your Pixel 10 is not in Lineage devices so i would also assume it's not supported. (maybe it's too new?)
While this is good news, the cynical in me is waiting for Motorola GrapheneOS, with the changes that make it actually relevant for normies, and then the whole idea goes the way of netbooks.
I’ve been using GrapheneOS for a couple of years now, and it’s been perfect for me. Contactless payments used to work fine, but then my bank switched to Google Wallet. Since then, I’ve just kept a physical card tucked behind my phone case so I can use it when needed.
I admire the de-Googled approach of GrapheneOS. As a lawyer, privacy concerns resonate with me too. I love the rebellious attitude of tech that presents an alternative choice in an overly duopolistic market.
That said, I wouldn't last 8.4 months like the author. Even though he admits to some Google app usage, I'm in too deep — I'd never be able to get out. But if I get the chance, I'd like to try it on a secondary phone. Those solid black icons are one reason. They look cool.
Not wanting to discourage you from trying Graphene, but the icons are probably not a good reason. Can always install an alternative launcher and icon pack on stock android.
Running Graphene for a long time now, everything works perfectly fine, but I don't do mobile banking.
I do mobile banking and use GrapheneOS daily (2 online banks + 2 trading platforms).
I also work in mobile app/SDK publishing as a business dev and it's critical that I can install my clients' apps (thousand+) in private space.
It works great for me.
you can use mostly google appsand still benefit (e.g. unlike google android, play services aren't privileged and are sandboxed like any other app) https://grapheneos.org/features#sandboxed-google-play
also you can restrict some apps network permissions, for example i use the google camera app with the network disabled :p
Personally I would just love Apple to be forced by governments to open up their hardware by releasing complete documentation of their hardware and allowing to install another os or dual boot. iPhones hardware is really good and would love booting Linux on theses. And then force every services company to provide an API to their services so we have an alternative to their app. I guess Motorola partnering with GrapheneOS will not change anything in this space because contactless payments and some apps will not work and fundamentally because the sales will be way below mainstream brands like Apple/Samsung. Governments need to step up here.
I wish i could switch but bank apps and contactless payments keep me on stock pixel.
so use a card? there is always something. breaking free is never going to be without ANY inconveniences, it's how they build their moat after all. okay so once those two works works, one goes to the next thing on the list; "I wish I could switch but I can't use gboard on it and the swiping is 0.5% better than the stock keyboard so it's unusable to me"
(you can use gboard, that was just an example - but it's always these small inconveniences, just like in the chrome vs firefox threads)
Is this a European thing? Why not use a credit card?
In Europe? Debit cards. Hardly anyone uses a credit card in a supermarket.
If I'm going out I'll have both a debit card and cash in my wallet. Given that large scale outages of payment networks are no longer theoretical but to be expected, not carrying cash is just silly. Since I have a wallet in any case, I see no point in using contactless payments on a smartphone — I usually don't take it with me when getting groceries.
I have no idea if I can even do contactless phone payments on GrapheneOS, but since everything else works (including my bank's app), I don't care.
I think it's healthy for a population to not have as part of day-to-day life to pay with credit, effectively paying with money you might not actually have, going into debt. How many US citizens are crippled by credit card debt, and the interest on it?
You can pay with credit card as a convenience + fraud protection mechanism without ever paying interest by just paying your bill off every month.
When chip and pin was first rolled out, Europeans were shocked by the low security of swipe cards in the US. The reason that wasn’t an issue for Americans was (and still is) that credit cards have excellent fraud protections.
If someone steals my credit card, it is the bank’s problem, not mine.
The risk of paying by debit card on a regular basis is unfathomable to me, even with fancy tech to try to make it secure.
I wasn't suggesting individuals shouldn't be able to pay with credit. I have a credit card myself, which I use when I can't pay with debit. I was suggesting that for a population as a whole, having paying with credit being so commonplace leads to crippling debt issues, which as far as I can believe "the reports", is an issue in the US.
Your comment on the risk of paying with debit cards surprised me. I've never considered it a risk at all. It made me realize that perhaps here (in the Netherlands) we have consumer protection systems in place, in addition to the payment systems, that prevent any issues.
You also get contactless payment on debit cards.
It's not about credit/debit, it's about phone/card. Americans tend to use "credit card" as a generic term for payment cards.
And yes, phone NFC payment is one of those technically unnecessary conveniences that's really easy to get used to. You probably already have your phone out or at least accessible in like one second, paying with it instead of pulling out your wallet and finding a card or even cash is just sooo nice. I hate that I've gotten this used to it.
That being said, you can still get NFC payment on a rooted or reflashed phone. Instead of Google Wallet, find a bank or card provider that has their own app. I use the Curve "proxy card" and it works fine.
I’ve tried but: couldn’t get my card to work on wallet. Can’t verify.
Uber couldn’t verify payment so I couldn’t take a ride when needed.
Wallet was one of the reasons I abandoned my well working lineageOS phone on a redmi note 10 as it was a cat and mouse game over month. I feel as long as a vendor does not support an os and Google is so hostile against modifications, it is not a good feeling that they can pull the rug at any time. I was multiple times in the situation when I wanted to pay with the phone and was in the end rejected. I think we need to take NFC wallets and esims away from phone/os vendors again. A seperate NFC enabled vendor independent trusted platform would be IMHO the way to go. Especially with ID wallets and universal bank wallets on the way in Europe. This that they cannot use security as a killer argument to keep us in their walled gardens. I know the solution is cards or a second phone, but affordance counts.
Contactless payments are often a problem, but adding a card for Uber (directly in the app) should work. I use it frequently, along with Grab, Bolt, Maxim, etc.
Strange, i'm using Uber regularly with GrapheneOS.
It's googles fault that cards can't work in graphene.
Google needs to whitelist graphene basically to work in the wallet app.
On that note, given that graphene is focused around security and privacy, perhaps not givng your payment data to google is probably a good thing
good writeup. I've been meaning to set this up for myself too. I keep uninstalling apps from my phone every other day because if I use something very little, I am afraid the app is collecting data from my usage in some way or the other.
I have a fairly new ish Pixel phone, do you think I'll be able to go back if I don't like it?
I have a fairly new ish Pixel phone, do you think I'll be able to go back if I don't like it?
Yeah, it is very easy, it's described here:
https://grapheneos.org/install/web#replacing-grapheneos-with...
Similar to GrapheneOS, Google also has a web installer (linked from the above section). Just in case you didn't know - both installing GrapheneOS and recovering the stock OS will remove all data as well.
Yes, it's super simple to install GrapheneOS and to revert to the factory OS on Google Pixels. It is done from Chrome browser with phone connected via USB cable, no need to install anything. Of course when you'll switch, you'll lose all data on your phone, basically like factory reset (but esims survive I think).
eSIMs survive the grapheneOS install…
Because when I had set it up, grapheneOS itself couldn’t install or set one up unless it was previously installed under the old OS.
So I had to set up my carrier and then install grapheneOS.
It can install eSIMs on its own now so this doesn’t matter other than confirming the eSIM carries over.
I’ve never reverted to stock android and I’m never looking back so idk if the eSIM survives the round trip.
Both install and reversion to stock OS are incredibly easy. Just back up first.
2027 will be the year of the Graphene phone.