Been working remotely for a long time now and was beginning to feel that loneliness. So, I started going to a co-working space to be around people again. Two/three days a week I'm in the "office" with my new "coworkers". It's been great to get to socialize and talk to other tech folks who are working on interesting and different things.
But I also love that freedom of staying home whenever I want to. IMO, more offices should operate more like this.
I work remotely following a divorce because my children live here. It's not something I would choose for myself and will be looking to move once they graduate.
This is the norm now for the past few years, and is one of the few ways to protect your job from being fully offshored.
People keep complaining on HN, but the reality is WFH during COVID proved async works, and if async works then there's no reason not to reduce hiring in MTV and NYC and shift to (eg.) Prague, Warsaw, Tel Aviv, Bangalore, etc.
The post above as well is predicated on a 1973 style consumer transport shock. At least in most developed countries, the average MPG has dramatically increased [0].
In 1973, the average MPG was around 12 MPG. In 2015 (before EVs were normalized) it was almost 25 MPG. In 2026, numbers would be significantly higher.
A more realistic prior is what happened in 2006-07: your boss will expect you to go to work.
Actually, there are reasons not to offshore. See near shoring as a trend for evidence. Places in South America are preferred over Europe and Asia for U.S. companies. Beyond that though, local workers are easier to communicate with, culturally compatible, higher skilled, and tend to behave better.
[Edit: source: I led a consulting team of about eighty Brazilians and Ecuadorians]
I have heard a large impetus for the RTO push was to prop up commercial real estate. Permanent WFH would change the value of trillions of dollars of properties and reshape the commercial centers of cities.
A lot of people with a lot of money at risk got really scared and decided the easiest thing to do was to go back to the status quo.
The incongruent part of that theory is that the RTO push came from middle to upper-middle management (and some top-level ones on occasion).
The owners of commercial real estate are not these people. And it doesn't seem likely that these commercial real estate owners would have sufficient push by themselves to make such a large scale RTO mandate.
It came from the very top. The owners own both real estate companies and software companies and much in between. Many also copied the RTO directive to fit in.
>I have heard a large impetus for the RTO push was to prop up commercial real estate. Permanent WFH would change the value of trillions of dollars of properties and reshape the commercial centers of cities.
That makes as much sense as "people buy iPhones because they own Apple shares in their 401k (it's #2 in the S&P 500) and want to pump the stock". At an individual CEO level it doesn't make sense, for similar reasons. The CEO and the company can reap massive savings from not leasing an office, which is presumably also good for their careers and make the board happy. On the other hand the individual benefit that the CEO can get by ever so slightly increasing demand for CRE is negligible.
There were a lot of downstream effects as well -- local businesses that depended upon those office workers being in the area. Those ripples hurt a lot of people.
That said, it shouldn't be the driver of RTO, it should be the need to actually have in-person collaboration.
Assuming this is an issue only in America is absolutely adorable. Signed, from Europe. In Austria a lot of corporations are overly generous if they give you 2-3 day/week WFH.
Is there any increase in work constraints that wouldn’t cause this? It seems like it just means that industry interview practices are well calibrated and so high performers have an ease of finding another job.
I've been working fully remote for like 5 years at this point and I have to say I do get an itch to go into the office.
My pipe dream for the future of work is it's remote by default with in-office being a decision that's made at a team level. Ideally there would be no hard requirement to come to the office X days per week, it would be a team coming together and saying "hey, how about we all go into the office on Tuesday to collaborate on this thing" (this assumes buy in from the entire team).
My small company has an office in a coworking space that's about a 1.5 hour train commute for me. I don't go in much, but when I do, I have a great time. Some excellent conversation and product discussion happens there. I even go into a closer coworking space in my city a few times a week (typing from there).
All that said, working from home is so awesome. I'm more productive, have no commute, and get to do things like take care of background tasks like laundry and start my workouts at a reasonable hour after work.
I think the perfect set-up is hybrid, with 1-2 days office / 3-4 days home. Virtual meetings are significantly worse than in-person. But obviously the commute determines whether this is "on net" worthwhile.
My team has at least one person in every continent (except Africa and the Antarctic, but we do have someone on Réunion), so meetings are and will always be video conferences.
Same. It's been 6 years of "work from home", starting mid-March 2020.
It has become very, very old.
I would love to find a local startup that embraces hybrid work.
My kids are 12 and 13 - wfh was is getting very old for me, especially during the school holidays when I’m constantly in ‘dad mode’. Don’t get me wrong - I love them with all my soul but sometimes I really want a break.
I was a big WFH proponent, but I found the thing that I hated the most was the commute. Actually being in the office is pretty nice (assuming you work w/ nice people, have good culture, good coffee, nice desk setups, etc).
I've made the switch to biking to work about half the time and it's freaking amazing. I turn 20-30 mins of absolute dead time where I'm spending money, polluting, and using up infrastructure into 50 minutes of getting healthier and having a blast. It's a great trade, especially if you were going to work out anyway... which you should, of course.
I'm effectively spending 25 extra minutes of my day to get a 50 minute workout and save some money, and not pollute, and not contribute to traffic problems, parking congestion, etc. etc.
It's not necessarily easy to make this happen, cycling safely is a whole other can of worms, you kind of need a shower at the office (or take it easier on an ebike), but the benefits are massive if you can do it.
RTO would be much more popular if people were actually coming back to an individual office instead of the cubicle farm
Businesses and commercial real estate did this to themselves. I especially hope commercial real estate enters a death spiral and we stop building offices unless they are absolutely needed and free up some of the land for residential use (and not converting the buildings).
I miss the energy of being in the office, but I do not miss the commuting. If I could commute in 15 minutes or so each way I'd strongly consider an in-office role. OTOH, the ease of the home office is very nice.
In Texas where BCBS is based, the city asked them to re-instate in-office policies, as all those people drive a large amount of tax income in the city.
At least where I live (France but not Paris) all the decently paid jobs in my field all seem to be fully remote. I’d love to go back to partial RTTO but it’s simply not financially viable given the paycut and commute costs.
> I've never understood having an office when it isn't absolutely required
A number of jurisdictions require some amount of office usage for subsidizes, it's harder for managers to justify not offshoring if everyone is 100% WFH, and some employees just suck (eg. Overemployed, exfiltrating data, quiet quitting).
I have been a consultant for well over a decade now: it's rare that I ever end up meeting clients in person. I have also seen just about every approach to "work from home".
Without an office, entire layers of communication get stripped out. The "ownership" of all those channels by your company only compounds the problem. You're not going to bitch about your boss, your PM, your project in the same way in slack as you might over lunch, with your co workers. Communication becomes burdened with layers of "nice". It is much easier to be brusk and professional in a request to someone you just spent the last hour eating with while you had a conversation about family, life, and what you did on the weekend.
Meanwhile there are entire layers of informal communication that can go on when teams intermingle. The cross pollination between accounting, customer service, design that can happen when you're in the same location simply wont occur when every one is on their own island.
I agree that ONE can be far more productive when stripping away the commute, and having the privacy that comes from NOT being in a crappy open floor plan. But it's a sub optimization problem: optimized parts don't always result in a better over all organism (organization).
Can it work: it sure can. Might it be optimal for you, maybe. But that doesn't mean it is applicable in every case.
Do companies give a crap about employees spending money on gas? I mean maybe for those that are traveling salesmen or something... but otherwise I don't see how it would bring it back...
This WFH shit was the worst for me - Ive lost more than 20kg due to eating not enough at home, I like to go to the office: I can go out and have several lunch options and I dont have to cook for one person and then clean up 20 Min.
I am also at the office almost every day because I think it's better for my mental health and food. But I also appreciate that for many, it's different, so actually having the choice individually is nice.
Those pushing return to office have drank so much of the Kool-Aid that compliance with policy is worth any cost. You must keep collaborating and allegedly being productive in person.
It is usually the creeps that rush for it. They want the taste of power (forcing you to be in certain place and causing inconvenience) to sniff your perfumes when talk to you up close and clock your bum.
Management & their HR henchmen, sorry, henchpersons: "But think of all the in-person collaboration that gets missed without the in-office presence!"
The actual in-person collaboration in the office: 50-100 person open space office with everyone wearing noise canceling headphones all the time to drown out everyone else talking in zoom/teams calls, not talking to anyone in person, reading reddit and watching youtube on the second monitor while waiting to clock out for the day.
At my workplace, HR addressed RTO and said that even when people aren't working together, just seeing people around invigorates them. Kind of demeaning to think that part of my pay comes from HR enjoying seeing the back of my head while I'm hunched over my laptop.
And there's the people that more or less require the use of headphones if you want to get anything done: the two or three people that continually narrate every aspect of what they're doing loud enough for everyone to hear, the handful of people who desperately need attention and validation at every possible juncture, the project managers having a ball pretending every day is an episode of The Office, and if you're really unlucky, the fire alarm that goes off at random intervals throughout the day that everyone's learned how to ignore.
Some older people don't hear well so they talk louder due to that. It's not that they intend to be loud, it's just they don't hear as well as younger people do. Many vets also having hearing loss due to service related injuries. So next time you hear someone talking loud... remember that.
Yeah, in my open space office there's an old guy that talks in Teams calls all day like he learned to whisper in a helicopter, and me and others complained to management about him disturbing everyone trying to focus on our work, and boss said "he's deaf, what do you want us to do about it, give him a private office?" and my answer in my head was "no, but have you heard of this wild idea called WFH where people can't disturb others or get disturbed by others talking too loud? Crazy idea, right?"
Been working remotely for a long time now and was beginning to feel that loneliness. So, I started going to a co-working space to be around people again. Two/three days a week I'm in the "office" with my new "coworkers". It's been great to get to socialize and talk to other tech folks who are working on interesting and different things.
But I also love that freedom of staying home whenever I want to. IMO, more offices should operate more like this.
I work remotely following a divorce because my children live here. It's not something I would choose for myself and will be looking to move once they graduate.
> Two/three days a week...
This is the norm now for the past few years, and is one of the few ways to protect your job from being fully offshored.
People keep complaining on HN, but the reality is WFH during COVID proved async works, and if async works then there's no reason not to reduce hiring in MTV and NYC and shift to (eg.) Prague, Warsaw, Tel Aviv, Bangalore, etc.
The post above as well is predicated on a 1973 style consumer transport shock. At least in most developed countries, the average MPG has dramatically increased [0].
In 1973, the average MPG was around 12 MPG. In 2015 (before EVs were normalized) it was almost 25 MPG. In 2026, numbers would be significantly higher.
A more realistic prior is what happened in 2006-07: your boss will expect you to go to work.
[0] - https://public.websites.umich.edu/~umtriswt/PDF/SWT-2017-5.p...
Actually, there are reasons not to offshore. See near shoring as a trend for evidence. Places in South America are preferred over Europe and Asia for U.S. companies. Beyond that though, local workers are easier to communicate with, culturally compatible, higher skilled, and tend to behave better.
[Edit: source: I led a consulting team of about eighty Brazilians and Ecuadorians]
Yes except for the Tel Aviv part. Hiring in Israel is a huge liability. Brand and war damage.
I don't know about you guys, but RTTO was the biggest signal to me that corp america is lost and beyond recovery.
The benefits are so obvious, yet here we are.
I have heard a large impetus for the RTO push was to prop up commercial real estate. Permanent WFH would change the value of trillions of dollars of properties and reshape the commercial centers of cities.
A lot of people with a lot of money at risk got really scared and decided the easiest thing to do was to go back to the status quo.
The incongruent part of that theory is that the RTO push came from middle to upper-middle management (and some top-level ones on occasion).
The owners of commercial real estate are not these people. And it doesn't seem likely that these commercial real estate owners would have sufficient push by themselves to make such a large scale RTO mandate.
It came from the very top. The owners own both real estate companies and software companies and much in between. Many also copied the RTO directive to fit in.
>I have heard a large impetus for the RTO push was to prop up commercial real estate. Permanent WFH would change the value of trillions of dollars of properties and reshape the commercial centers of cities.
That makes as much sense as "people buy iPhones because they own Apple shares in their 401k (it's #2 in the S&P 500) and want to pump the stock". At an individual CEO level it doesn't make sense, for similar reasons. The CEO and the company can reap massive savings from not leasing an office, which is presumably also good for their careers and make the board happy. On the other hand the individual benefit that the CEO can get by ever so slightly increasing demand for CRE is negligible.
There were a lot of downstream effects as well -- local businesses that depended upon those office workers being in the area. Those ripples hurt a lot of people.
That said, it shouldn't be the driver of RTO, it should be the need to actually have in-person collaboration.
True. Many large cities also depended on that tax revenue.
It's almost as if we should find an economic system that doesn't rely on forced consumption, waste, etc in order to be "prosperous."
yeah, when you work in the office, there's no way to get your Costco shopping done.
Assuming this is an issue only in America is absolutely adorable. Signed, from Europe. In Austria a lot of corporations are overly generous if they give you 2-3 day/week WFH.
The high performers are usually the first to leave under tighter RTO conditions
https://www.business.pitt.edu/return-to-office-mandates-dont...
Is there any increase in work constraints that wouldn’t cause this? It seems like it just means that industry interview practices are well calibrated and so high performers have an ease of finding another job.
Likely because they are fully aware of the power dynamics in a job and understand of when they are being taken advantage for performative theater.
I've been working fully remote for like 5 years at this point and I have to say I do get an itch to go into the office.
My pipe dream for the future of work is it's remote by default with in-office being a decision that's made at a team level. Ideally there would be no hard requirement to come to the office X days per week, it would be a team coming together and saying "hey, how about we all go into the office on Tuesday to collaborate on this thing" (this assumes buy in from the entire team).
My small company has an office in a coworking space that's about a 1.5 hour train commute for me. I don't go in much, but when I do, I have a great time. Some excellent conversation and product discussion happens there. I even go into a closer coworking space in my city a few times a week (typing from there).
All that said, working from home is so awesome. I'm more productive, have no commute, and get to do things like take care of background tasks like laundry and start my workouts at a reasonable hour after work.
Hybrid is a comfortable spot for me.
I think the perfect set-up is hybrid, with 1-2 days office / 3-4 days home. Virtual meetings are significantly worse than in-person. But obviously the commute determines whether this is "on net" worthwhile.
> Virtual meetings are significantly worse than in-person
The problem is that "in-person" meetings are still Zoom calls for those that didn't come in, so it's the worst of both worlds.
My team has at least one person in every continent (except Africa and the Antarctic, but we do have someone on Réunion), so meetings are and will always be video conferences.
That's definitely true - ideally, there would be one day where almost everyone comes in for the all-hands meeting. Whether that is realistic depends..
I have a long commute to get to an office where everyone is wearing noise cancelling headphones for meetings...
Ha! That seems like a waste. As I said, commute time determines whether its worth it.
Same. It's been 6 years of "work from home", starting mid-March 2020. It has become very, very old. I would love to find a local startup that embraces hybrid work.
i am guessing you dont have kids. i get extra 2 hrs with my son that wouldnt trade for anything.
My kids are 12 and 13 - wfh was is getting very old for me, especially during the school holidays when I’m constantly in ‘dad mode’. Don’t get me wrong - I love them with all my soul but sometimes I really want a break.
I have kids and would prefer to work in-office or hybrid. There's lots of reasons people might want that.
Agreed, over the last 6 years I have been able to spend lots of time with my two kids. Would not trade that for anything.
I've been WFH for 6 years since my local office permanently closed during Covid.
It's getting lonely. :(
I was a big WFH proponent, but I found the thing that I hated the most was the commute. Actually being in the office is pretty nice (assuming you work w/ nice people, have good culture, good coffee, nice desk setups, etc).
I've made the switch to biking to work about half the time and it's freaking amazing. I turn 20-30 mins of absolute dead time where I'm spending money, polluting, and using up infrastructure into 50 minutes of getting healthier and having a blast. It's a great trade, especially if you were going to work out anyway... which you should, of course.
I'm effectively spending 25 extra minutes of my day to get a 50 minute workout and save some money, and not pollute, and not contribute to traffic problems, parking congestion, etc. etc.
It's not necessarily easy to make this happen, cycling safely is a whole other can of worms, you kind of need a shower at the office (or take it easier on an ebike), but the benefits are massive if you can do it.
RTO would be much more popular if people were actually coming back to an individual office instead of the cubicle farm
Businesses and commercial real estate did this to themselves. I especially hope commercial real estate enters a death spiral and we stop building offices unless they are absolutely needed and free up some of the land for residential use (and not converting the buildings).
I miss the energy of being in the office, but I do not miss the commuting. If I could commute in 15 minutes or so each way I'd strongly consider an in-office role. OTOH, the ease of the home office is very nice.
In Texas where BCBS is based, the city asked them to re-instate in-office policies, as all those people drive a large amount of tax income in the city.
Keynes still has under 4 years to be proven right!
https://www.economicsnetwork.ac.uk/archive/keynes_persuasion...
At least where I live (France but not Paris) all the decently paid jobs in my field all seem to be fully remote. I’d love to go back to partial RTTO but it’s simply not financially viable given the paycut and commute costs.
I've never understood having an office when it isn't absolutely required. Why spend money on something you do not actually need?
If people can't make remote collaboration work, perhaps they should study how gaming groups achieve this.
> I've never understood having an office when it isn't absolutely required
A number of jurisdictions require some amount of office usage for subsidizes, it's harder for managers to justify not offshoring if everyone is 100% WFH, and some employees just suck (eg. Overemployed, exfiltrating data, quiet quitting).
I was discussing this with a friend last night. If fuel prices get high enough I can see it happening.
Articles about parts of Asia starting WFH to conserve fuel are already cropping up [1]. I'm seeing live trackers of the Hormunz pop up too [2].
I'm getting some serious deja-vu.
[1] https://fortune.com/2026/03/11/iran-war-fuel-crisis-asia-wor...
[1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/iran-oil-crisis-fuel-rationing...
[2] https://hormuzstraitmonitor.com/
I have been a consultant for well over a decade now: it's rare that I ever end up meeting clients in person. I have also seen just about every approach to "work from home".
Without an office, entire layers of communication get stripped out. The "ownership" of all those channels by your company only compounds the problem. You're not going to bitch about your boss, your PM, your project in the same way in slack as you might over lunch, with your co workers. Communication becomes burdened with layers of "nice". It is much easier to be brusk and professional in a request to someone you just spent the last hour eating with while you had a conversation about family, life, and what you did on the weekend.
Meanwhile there are entire layers of informal communication that can go on when teams intermingle. The cross pollination between accounting, customer service, design that can happen when you're in the same location simply wont occur when every one is on their own island.
I agree that ONE can be far more productive when stripping away the commute, and having the privacy that comes from NOT being in a crappy open floor plan. But it's a sub optimization problem: optimized parts don't always result in a better over all organism (organization).
Can it work: it sure can. Might it be optimal for you, maybe. But that doesn't mean it is applicable in every case.
Do companies give a crap about employees spending money on gas? I mean maybe for those that are traveling salesmen or something... but otherwise I don't see how it would bring it back...
I think we'll start to see the effects once oil reserves get low and gas prices truly skyrocket.
Honestly:
This WFH shit was the worst for me - Ive lost more than 20kg due to eating not enough at home, I like to go to the office: I can go out and have several lunch options and I dont have to cook for one person and then clean up 20 Min.
:-)
Couldn't you also go out to eat from home?
I am also at the office almost every day because I think it's better for my mental health and food. But I also appreciate that for many, it's different, so actually having the choice individually is nice.
Those pushing return to office have drank so much of the Kool-Aid that compliance with policy is worth any cost. You must keep collaborating and allegedly being productive in person.
It's managers who want to feel in control of their peons reinforced by massive investment in corporate real estate and businesses surrounding them.
The last place I worked mandated 3 then 4 day RTO
After a year line managers were not enforcing it, despite repeated reminders
They started counting badge-ins, and lowering performance ratings for managers with reports not showing up.
They had to force the managers to act, almost none of them thought it was needed.
It is usually the creeps that rush for it. They want the taste of power (forcing you to be in certain place and causing inconvenience) to sniff your perfumes when talk to you up close and clock your bum.
Management & their HR henchmen, sorry, henchpersons: "But think of all the in-person collaboration that gets missed without the in-office presence!"
The actual in-person collaboration in the office: 50-100 person open space office with everyone wearing noise canceling headphones all the time to drown out everyone else talking in zoom/teams calls, not talking to anyone in person, reading reddit and watching youtube on the second monitor while waiting to clock out for the day.
At my workplace, HR addressed RTO and said that even when people aren't working together, just seeing people around invigorates them. Kind of demeaning to think that part of my pay comes from HR enjoying seeing the back of my head while I'm hunched over my laptop.
And there's the people that more or less require the use of headphones if you want to get anything done: the two or three people that continually narrate every aspect of what they're doing loud enough for everyone to hear, the handful of people who desperately need attention and validation at every possible juncture, the project managers having a ball pretending every day is an episode of The Office, and if you're really unlucky, the fire alarm that goes off at random intervals throughout the day that everyone's learned how to ignore.
Some older people don't hear well so they talk louder due to that. It's not that they intend to be loud, it's just they don't hear as well as younger people do. Many vets also having hearing loss due to service related injuries. So next time you hear someone talking loud... remember that.
Yeah, in my open space office there's an old guy that talks in Teams calls all day like he learned to whisper in a helicopter, and me and others complained to management about him disturbing everyone trying to focus on our work, and boss said "he's deaf, what do you want us to do about it, give him a private office?" and my answer in my head was "no, but have you heard of this wild idea called WFH where people can't disturb others or get disturbed by others talking too loud? Crazy idea, right?"
>kool-aid
Nah it comes from them trying to keep their real estate "investment" relevant.