Reminds me of backpacking up and down the east coast of Australia. I learned that Fosters is only northern New South Wales for beer. Every place had their own preferred beer, but maddeningly they all had their own glass. A tenner, a schooner. Each a slightly different size. I made friends with a guy in Hobart that was staying in the hostel as he was doing research there, I think he was a biologist. He took me to his favorite pub as they served imperial pints. I think who ever is behind this site needs to do some serious research in Australia as they could, at least, double the "know your glass" section...
I'm from Ireland, where filling beers precisely up to the brim is practically a religion, & many barmen will even take the glass back & top it up if they see the head diminishing too quickly in the space of time it takes you to pick the freshly poured pint up.
One thing that always struck me as odd is how the culture is seemingly the opposite of this in apparent beer meccas like Belgium - not only are the glasses typically much smaller (this is fine) but they also leave massive gaps at the top. The glass capacity is never treated as being close to the rim at all.
> not only are the glasses typically much smaller (this is fine) but they also leave massive gaps at the top
I'm wondering if this is due to the prevalence of cask ales vs bottle/keg conditioning. The former is relatively uncommon in Belgium and you want the head from the latter.
That said, oversized glassware (e.g. Duvel's tulip for aromatics) and/or fill lines are also used to accommodate the head while still not cheating the customer out of volume.
It could well have emerged as a cultural norm from the prevalence of heads, but I've seen it often for very moderate heads, with a gap left above the foam.
> not cheating the customer out of volume
I don't think it's cheating if its the norm. One would expect prices to be set appropriately for the average volume served (i.e. a full glass would be a bonus rather than the gap being a loss).
I do just find it odd, coming myself from the opposite culturally.
I remember watching the cornetto trilogy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Flavours_Cornetto ) and always wondering why on earth they fill up the glasses up to the brim. It is uncomfortable to transport this way and not spill beer.
When CAMRA was new in the early 1970s, they started a campaign for oversize glasses holding a pint to the line instead of a pint to the rim, so that there would be space for a pint of liquid and a head in the glass. The big breweries hated this idea and mounted a reactionary campaign arguing things like it would be too expensive to replace all the glasses, or serve customers the full measure they had paid for. (My father was a new recruit at Guinness and sadly one of his early tasks was the pint-to-brim campaign.)
I no longer drink in pubs but in my neck of the woods, the pubs that specialised in cask ale often had lined glasses.
The problem was that many people insisted on the glass being filled to the brim, because they felt they were being short changed. So it solved one problem but created another.
My understanding is Belgian beer culture considers the aroma to be an important part of the experience. But I’ve never been, that’s all through osmosis.
This is exactly it. That's why the glasses have the same basic form (stem, bowl, and tapered rim) as wine glasses and snifters. The liquid sits in the bowl, and the aroma is captured in the empty space between the liquid and the rim.
Same in Germany. In Belgium, the glasses don't have a line and they don't fill them to the brim neither! The only thing that prevents pubs from cheating you out of some of your beer is their reputation. And to be honest, I sometimes had doubts about getting all that I paid for.
> the Guinness head means you're getting less than a pint of actual beer
I hate to be pedantic but pint being volumetric, you're still getting a pint, independent of density. Also - a nitrogen head doesn't dissipate, so you never get a gap.
I'm now curious though whether a nitrogen head is less dense than a CO2 head...
The only sensible approach here is pint-to-line glasses. I don't want my glass filled to the very top where I'll spill it, I want it filled to the pint line. Sadly in the UK up to 5% of the pint is allowed to be foam, but I'd expect any sensible barman in the UK to top me up to the pint line if I asked, and be apologetic about it.
I got poured a pint by a newbie behind the bar at a hotel recently and she looked embarrassed as it was about 40% head, but to her credit she went to fetch the shift supervisor before I said anything.
He explained after pouring it better that, even the remaining head (It had ~3/4 inch even after fixing it) might still be met by derision by many customers. "They'd be asking if you would be charging them for just for the half" etc.
There's a bit of leeway but you'll quickly hear about it if you short a pint too much.
Yes. Americans/Canadians famously can't pour beer properly. If you are pouring a pilsner or really any lager, a head of at least 2 inches is actually correct and absolutely desirable. The way it's poured in Canada (no head) is borderline undrinkable to me.
Preferences vary on both sides of the Atlantic. Another comment on this post complains that Americans pour beer wrong because they _do_ pour with a head.
> Also in the US (probably due to lack of training and the customer too embarrassed to complaining) tend not to fill it the brim (and so not even 16''). I've seen 2-3 inch heads and asked them to top it up. They look at me as if I've just insulted George Washington
If an establishment wants to serve drinks with a head they should use glasses with a mark on the side indicating the measure, rather than glasses which need to be brim full. Using the latter style of glass and including a head is just ripping off the customer.
We call that kind of beer without any head "dead". Measurement here is about two fingers width, and if you do it the first time and screw up it is two fingers in length (second part is of course tounge-in-cheek).
Right? Just top it up, let some of the foam cascade over the side... Foam always forms in the keg if it sits for too long so you need to let some of it out anyway.
It is the same in Canada [1] yet I frequently see beer sold in "US pints" over here. I assume they do it so they can advertise cheaper prices (the amount being smaller). Some places will write the glass size in ounces, but some won't.
Also in the US (probably due to lack of training and the customer too embarrassed to complaining) tend not to fill it the brim (and so not even 16''). I've seen 2-3 inch heads and asked them to top it up. They look at me as if I've just insulted George Washington.
A pint in the Netherlands usually is 500ml. In very rare cases, but only in real pubs (not mass market "Irish" pubs) you get an actual pint. So you are cheated out of about ~68ml in that case. Vs the US you get a few ml more.
As far as I knew, Netherlands pubs typically sold:
- 200ml "fluitje" (little flute)
- 250ml "pintje" (little pint), often sold in a "vaasje" (vase, a tapered beer glass). This is the typical beer measure: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pintje "Het bestelde glas pils heeft doorgaans een inhoud van 25 cl"
The Maß is only a thing in Bavaria and strongly Bavarian-themed places, and almost nonexistent for bottles or cans anywhere in Germany. Faxe (which is Danish) sells one liter cans and some Czech brands sell or used to sell 1.5 liter plastic bottles - that's about it. The next common size is 5 liter mini kegs.
It's not completely uncommon to be offered 16 oz or 20 oz as options in the US. But I see it more at "fast casual" restaurants than bars or more upscale restaurants.
And of course, what an "ounce" means may vary. According to Wikipedia "An imperial fluid ounce is defined in British law as exactly 28.4130625 millilitres, while a US customary fluid ounce is exactly 29.5735295625 mL, and a US food labelling fluid ounce is 30 mL."
Americans don't claim to use imperial weights and measures; they use customary weights and measures, which were also used in the UK prior to the creation of imperial units with the Weights and Measures Act 1824.
The origin of US Customary units is British, even if the US, Liberia and Myanmar are the last countries still using it. The UK has almost entirely adopted metric (yards and miles are still used for measuring distances on roads and pints are still used for milk and beer, and the last government made the eccentric decision to permit pints for wine, which no producer used because they couldn't get the bottles), but these systems of units have identities beyond whether or not they're in use anywhere.
EDIT/CORRECTION: Milk is sold in multiples of 568 mL, so while the quantities are pints, the measurement is metric.
Beer and cider are the only drinks that are legally not sold by metric volume in the UK. They have to be served by the pint, 2/3, 1/2 or 1/3. Every other drink has to use metric.
But that just means the quantity has to be expressed in metric units, possibly in addition to imperial, correct? E.g. I currently have a carton of milk in my fridge that’s labelled “2272ml 4 pints”.
Not really. The UK uses imperial units for most of the things you use units for in daily life (roads, cooking, drink sizes, body weight, utilities, land area...), even though they theoretically converted to metric. Canada is similar.
_Human_ body weight. I grew up measuring everything in kilos apart from people, which has I guess what amounts to its own wholly idiosyncratic scale, the stone, that no one I've since met outside of the UK has heard of.
Your pubs kindly return the favor when we order whiskey. As Hunter S Thompson is reported to have quipped in a bar your side of the Atlantic: "What is this, a sample?"
Personally I'd have us use what the Royal Navy used to serve its rum ration in, the half-gill. This is 1/8 of a British pint or 71 millilitres, and the rum would have been a minimum of 54%!
Fractional gills were the pre-metric shot measure in the UK, but they were still pretty stingy. 1/6 gill in England, 1/5 or 1/4 gill in Scotland, and 1/4 gill in Northern Ireland.
At least in the UK it's a legal requirement to use marked glassware when serving beer, cider and wine. (Or to use a marked measuring cylinder and pour that into the drinkware, which is sometimes done for wine.)
Measuring beer is serious business in Germany to the point the EU commission had to comment on a rule change that supposedly forbade the usage of steins for foaming drinks (it didn't, but Germany wanted to be extra strict): https://www.bayern3.de/bier-steinkrug-eu-richtlinie
Selling drinks in mislabeled containers should warrant a fraud report to your local consumer protection agency. A crowdsourcing app seems like the wrong tool here.
The US is a different place; though I will say that in Europe everything seemed to be right on the line, whereas in the US I'd say that most pours were to the very brim (likely giving me more than advertised).
There is some back and forth around whether it's legal to serve beer in traditional ceramic steins, where customers can not verify that the foam really starts above the line.
As I understand, it is legal in Germany, but only if there is visible signage that informs customers about their right to pour their beer into a marked standard glass to check the amount.
Source (German): https://www.abendblatt.de/incoming/article402102835/wer-hat-...
In 1899, an association was formed in Munich to combat fraudulent pouring. It was banned by the Nazis and re-formed in 1970. They went around and measured beers. This post is its spiritual successor.
German: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verein_gegen_betr%C3%BCgerisch...
In the US at least it's pretty common to see bars using cheater pints. They look like 16 oz pint glasses but with a few tricks wind up only holding 14 oz
On the subject of the weights and measures to check that a pint is a pint, I remember the father of a friend of mine at university who was responsible for the weights and measures for Staffordshire. I think he was the undersheriff or something like that, and that the official pint was part of the collection.
This would have been in the late 80s - i've no idea if it was still in use, but i've a feeling that the law hadn't necessarily moved on, so I guess the official measure could have been required if challenged in court.
This is the sort of goodness the internet was made for. I'm no beer drinker myself, but I'm already sharing it with those in my circles who do.
Also a great way to teach folks on how to hold others honest and accountable, a skill sorely underdeveloped at present. Start with the pours, and push upward from there.
In Canada (and I’m sure elsewhere) there are surprise inspections where government inspectors show up at petrol stations and see if the pump actually gives you what it claims.
In the US every gas pump I've seen (I have not check the majority of states, but still a good sample) has a sticker on it stating inspections and who runs the state department that inspects them. Usually it is a yearly inspection (at least according to the sticker, maybe they do it more often I don't know)
Not just gas pumps, but any measuring device used to determine the price of a metered product. The scales at the register at supermarkets also have calibration stickers in my state.
Now that you mention it, I've seen them at some grocery stores - but generally not in a place I'd be looking unlike gas pumps where is is right next to the price and so you won't miss it.
I don't know if other companies do this anywhere but if you live in Ireland. Diageo have roles for people to travel around the country doing precisely this.
I have a feeling that if the USA did random, surprise inspections on businesses to make sure what they were selling was actually as-advertised, the whole system would be exposed as fraud within a month.
One thought I keep coming back to is the immense consequences of how our units of length, weight and volume were defined. Products are often sold with round numbers (1 liter, 0.5 liter, 1 kg, etc). If you could go back in time and fiddle with e.g. the definition of a pint, you'd see that reducing its volume would lead to people drinking less, until it's so small that people just order two pints.
I used to work in the Netherlands (i'm from the UK) and I could never understand how the Dutch put up with so much froth on their beer, even really enjoying being ripped off by it.
there is a calibration marker on the glass and the liquid has to be filled up to that line, the froth on top is extra. so on the continent we get more, not less. so from where we stand it looks rather like the islanders are ripped off ;-)
I'm not denying this, but I do remember a jug of beer being ordered and me being asked to pour it into several glasses without noticeable markings, and me trying to end up with about a 1/4 inch of head as I would in the UK and my Dutch friends yelling "more head" or something even less than polite.
Mostly in the NL I drink bottled beer. And I'm a Yorkshire man, at least by birth.
I really liked working in the NL, but their food and drink I could not get used to. I did a bit of consultancy at KLM, and what was offered for lunch in the cafeteria turned my stomach - artificial meat, artificial bread. I complained about this to one of the KLM staffers I was working with - "We know, We know, and of course the bosses never eat here"
Also, the Dutch idea of Chinese food is very strange (basically some sort of Indonesian thing - and I like Indonesian, but not that).
Anyway you in no way requested a critique of Dutch cuisine, but I'm glad I got it off my chest. So, apologies.
I've joked that the 16oz US pint was a long-play metric-system scheme to drive adoption of 500ml (~16.9oz) as a measure, a Pavlovian mechanic to trick beer-drinking Americans that the metric system is actually better because it results in more beer. The joke's on them. We're all about 12oz cans! 33cl? pfft...
Germans have it nailed down with the Kölsch Stange, a 200ml glass that so readily disappears that it stays cold and you just get another from the Kranz.
> 79.3% of pours were short (under 100% of claimed volume)
That is quite surprising. What breweries used to do when I worked in cafes and bars was to paint a mark on the glass and under it write "0.5" (in market that sells in liters and not in pints) and this mark is above[1] the half liter mark. Note that it is without units.
Pubs and bars get glasses for cheap or free and the brewery/distributor tries to trick the bar into selling more beer than they expect.
[1] We checked using measure cups from the kitchen. Maybe there is a conspiracy to have kitchens use too little ingredients.
Look, I get it. Beer is expensive, these days. Always has been. But I feel like these movements miss the forest for trees.
If we mandate beer volume then places that are “shorting” you will just raise the prices. Not to mention the tax on beer that would be required to pay for the inspection service. No one likes feeling like they got less than they paid for, but there’s solution is to take your business elsewhere.
Also, you know what really annoys me? When a bartender pulls a pint for me, and it’s up to the brim with no foam. Foam is part of the joy of a crisp beer. It adds aroma and anticipation. If I wanted to drink something with no foam I’d drink a soda. And in my heart of hearts (or stomach if stomachs?) I fear that’s where these arguments lead.
No one likes feeling like they got less than they paid for, but without regulation, how do you know that you got less than you paid for unless you're going to carry around a measuring glass yourself?
If the places that were shorting you have to raise prices when they have to give you what you paid for, that's false economy -- you're not saving money, if you want to drink less beer to save money, ask for a smaller glass.
There's a distinct difference between food retail and food service. This kind of regulation will harm the later, it does not belong. Are we going to weigh every pizza, every omelette, every side of fries too? We don't need to sterilize every single part of our food culture.
Anyone who has spent even a short amount of time in the food service business will be familiar with shrink. The average bar is probably seeing more than 15% shrinkage. The short pours are probably not offsetting that loss. Margins are thin.
Solutions for the neurotic drinker this website appeals to:
- order a can or bottle
- buy retail and stay home
- go to a self pour joint and pay by volume. Bonus: you don't have to talk to anyone.
Otherwise put away the scale and talk to the bartender. Chances are you come away with plenty of free beer. Most small taprooms will help you find a beer you like by giving you free beer. If you're obsessing over getting what you paid for in food service, you're missing out on the true value of that industry.
Let's not harass our bartenders, a hell of a tough job, with scales. I spent years behind the case of a cut to order cheese shop. There's a time and place for scales. This is not it.
Yes, generally food service operates on thin margins. A neighborhood brewery probably won't be profitable for the first few years, then if successful might stabilize around 15% net* profit margin.
If you go to a beer bar or a tap room, a large part of the role of a bartender is helping you find beer that you like. Successful bars and bartenders thrive from repeat customers. Community is important. This is very obvious if you actually sit down at bars and talk to the people behind them.
I guess I feel the same way about that as I do about a steak. How do I know that the steak is the 16oz I ordered? Ultimately the most important part is if I found the experience satisfying enough to return, not whether the steak was within .5oz of its stated measurement.
> No one likes feeling like they got less than they paid for, but there’s solution is to take your business elsewhere.
People need to know how much they got. it can be hard to judge, especially as you will be comparing across visits to different places on different days, and different styles of glass, etc.
I think your expected outcome is actually the desired one, to kill shrinkflation in favor of actual price increases. When the measures are all the same you can compare apples to apples across different businesses.
I had a mk1 diesel rabbit, which when asked about the mileage, I would reply that is got 15 miles to the pint, though further into my youth people still refered to a "point of rum", as a measure distinct from all others, but of course bieng Canadian, beer comes in quarts.
It's why all bars will have a little plaque saying what size their shots are. Almost always 25ml these days, but 35ml was common in many places. You're allowed to serve shots of either size but not in the same pub.
The way they got to the 25/ 35 split involves even more craziness. In England the law said spirits are always measured in sixths of a gill. This entire unit is obsolete, but 1/6 is a tiny bit less than 25ml. Fine.
However in Scotland two sizes were common, a fifth of a gill (slightly more generous than England) and a "nip" or quarter of a gill (a lot more generous). If you're used to ordering a "nip" of something and now you get a lot less you'd be very angry! So the 35ml option is there for the kind of Scottish or Irish establishment which would have been used to these larger measures rather than either try to keep the gill (which is a stupid unit nobody else needs) or anger drunk people.
I wouldn't be surprised if the "Make a sign" difference was to allow licensed premises to gradually shift to the more profitable, smaller, size. Maybe you change the place you own in Glasgow to 25ml first, and if the locals don't kick off you can try Aberdeen next, otherwise try again in a few years.
I like the CAMRA ones which have the pint line below the rim of the glass. Because technically the head doesn't count as part of the pint and there's a lot of back-and-forth about what the legally acceptable amount of head really is (CAMRA say 0%, pub associations serve 5%, pubs themselves serve whatever they think you'll pay for).
It’s such a small thing but when a brewery or restaurant featuring beers writes “pint” as an option and gives me a typical US beer glass (shaker I believe) it annoys the hell out of me. Don’t explicitly write “pint” if it isn’t at least north of 15oz. Definitely don’t if the glass literally can’t hold a pint.
I enjoyed reading this site and appreciate the passion and the effort.
The "loss of the pint" is basically shrink-flation. When a bar's costs and/or overhead goes up, they must do some combination of cutting expenses and raising prices. Raising prices means either selling the same stuff in the same quantity for more, or selling cheaper stuff OR less of the same stuff at the same price. Most bars will opt for the latter options to avoid raising prices, because raising prices is more likely to create complaints. All caveats apply, of course -- drop portions or quality too much or too often and you'll get complaints for sure, but "within reason" it's the lesser of two evils.
This is why I personally don't feel like I'm being cheated out of 2oz when I buy a $8 14oz shaker pint of IPA. Clearly, the cost per oz at this bar is $0.57. A 16oz glass would cost $9.14. They don't owe me the 2oz for free just because they used the word "pint". If the state government started enforcing pint measures again, bars would just drop the word "pint" from their signs and menus.
As infuriating as it may be, it's a good occasion to learn to let go.
Rationally, you're paying way more than the liquid in the glass, so just mentally tell yourself that the haircut is included in the price, and that's fine. If you can't stand the price anyway, change bar.
I'm sure the same individuals will calculate tip to the cent as well.
As someone who worked in specialty foods for years, you get what you get. Flaws and all. That's part of the charm of this industry. This is especially true for small craft breweries. If you insist on accuracy then ask for a can/bottle list. If you insist on consistency then buy macro.
Bickering over a few dollars when you're paying a premium price for the experience of going out is rather silly. There's better uses of your time, like enjoying yourself.
In Yorkshire a short pint will result in "Could you fit a whiskey in there?", "yes of course", "THEN FILL IT WITH BEER"
I'm going to start using this approach. Cheers!
Reminds me of backpacking up and down the east coast of Australia. I learned that Fosters is only northern New South Wales for beer. Every place had their own preferred beer, but maddeningly they all had their own glass. A tenner, a schooner. Each a slightly different size. I made friends with a guy in Hobart that was staying in the hostel as he was doing research there, I think he was a biologist. He took me to his favorite pub as they served imperial pints. I think who ever is behind this site needs to do some serious research in Australia as they could, at least, double the "know your glass" section...
You might enjoy the matrix of regional sizes and names on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_in_Australia#Beer_glasses
No, us locals don't know them all either!
I'm from Ireland, where filling beers precisely up to the brim is practically a religion, & many barmen will even take the glass back & top it up if they see the head diminishing too quickly in the space of time it takes you to pick the freshly poured pint up.
One thing that always struck me as odd is how the culture is seemingly the opposite of this in apparent beer meccas like Belgium - not only are the glasses typically much smaller (this is fine) but they also leave massive gaps at the top. The glass capacity is never treated as being close to the rim at all.
> not only are the glasses typically much smaller (this is fine) but they also leave massive gaps at the top
I'm wondering if this is due to the prevalence of cask ales vs bottle/keg conditioning. The former is relatively uncommon in Belgium and you want the head from the latter.
That said, oversized glassware (e.g. Duvel's tulip for aromatics) and/or fill lines are also used to accommodate the head while still not cheating the customer out of volume.
It could well have emerged as a cultural norm from the prevalence of heads, but I've seen it often for very moderate heads, with a gap left above the foam.
> not cheating the customer out of volume
I don't think it's cheating if its the norm. One would expect prices to be set appropriately for the average volume served (i.e. a full glass would be a bonus rather than the gap being a loss).
I do just find it odd, coming myself from the opposite culturally.
I remember watching the cornetto trilogy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Flavours_Cornetto ) and always wondering why on earth they fill up the glasses up to the brim. It is uncomfortable to transport this way and not spill beer.
When CAMRA was new in the early 1970s, they started a campaign for oversize glasses holding a pint to the line instead of a pint to the rim, so that there would be space for a pint of liquid and a head in the glass. The big breweries hated this idea and mounted a reactionary campaign arguing things like it would be too expensive to replace all the glasses, or serve customers the full measure they had paid for. (My father was a new recruit at Guinness and sadly one of his early tasks was the pint-to-brim campaign.)
I no longer drink in pubs but in my neck of the woods, the pubs that specialised in cask ale often had lined glasses.
The problem was that many people insisted on the glass being filled to the brim, because they felt they were being short changed. So it solved one problem but created another.
First sip's at the bar; then you can
Here are your beers lads, I didn't spill anything! They taste good too.
My understanding is Belgian beer culture considers the aroma to be an important part of the experience. But I’ve never been, that’s all through osmosis.
This is exactly it. That's why the glasses have the same basic form (stem, bowl, and tapered rim) as wine glasses and snifters. The liquid sits in the bowl, and the aroma is captured in the empty space between the liquid and the rim.
In Czech Republic they usually pour 3 fingers of head. But the measure line is also part way down the glass, the foam all above the line...
Same in Germany. In Belgium, the glasses don't have a line and they don't fill them to the brim neither! The only thing that prevents pubs from cheating you out of some of your beer is their reputation. And to be honest, I sometimes had doubts about getting all that I paid for.
Kind of.
Guinness glasses are exactly a pint, so the Guinness head means you're getting less than a pint of actual beer.
This is tolerated/expected and so de facto correct but de jure perhaps not.
> the Guinness head means you're getting less than a pint of actual beer
I hate to be pedantic but pint being volumetric, you're still getting a pint, independent of density. Also - a nitrogen head doesn't dissipate, so you never get a gap.
I'm now curious though whether a nitrogen head is less dense than a CO2 head...
It feels much denser, and I think it does dissipate... but slowly.
The only sensible approach here is pint-to-line glasses. I don't want my glass filled to the very top where I'll spill it, I want it filled to the pint line. Sadly in the UK up to 5% of the pint is allowed to be foam, but I'd expect any sensible barman in the UK to top me up to the pint line if I asked, and be apologetic about it.
I got poured a pint by a newbie behind the bar at a hotel recently and she looked embarrassed as it was about 40% head, but to her credit she went to fetch the shift supervisor before I said anything.
He explained after pouring it better that, even the remaining head (It had ~3/4 inch even after fixing it) might still be met by derision by many customers. "They'd be asking if you would be charging them for just for the half" etc.
There's a bit of leeway but you'll quickly hear about it if you short a pint too much.
Yes. Americans/Canadians famously can't pour beer properly. If you are pouring a pilsner or really any lager, a head of at least 2 inches is actually correct and absolutely desirable. The way it's poured in Canada (no head) is borderline undrinkable to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dggKezrSQxI
Preferences vary on both sides of the Atlantic. Another comment on this post complains that Americans pour beer wrong because they _do_ pour with a head.
> Also in the US (probably due to lack of training and the customer too embarrassed to complaining) tend not to fill it the brim (and so not even 16''). I've seen 2-3 inch heads and asked them to top it up. They look at me as if I've just insulted George Washington
If an establishment wants to serve drinks with a head they should use glasses with a mark on the side indicating the measure, rather than glasses which need to be brim full. Using the latter style of glass and including a head is just ripping off the customer.
How do you measure the head through the red solo bubba cup?
Really, no self-respecting Canadian would drink beer out of anything except directly out of the bottle, can, or keg.
We call that kind of beer without any head "dead". Measurement here is about two fingers width, and if you do it the first time and screw up it is two fingers in length (second part is of course tounge-in-cheek).
As a Canadian: hard agree. Beer without head is gross.
You should try the Dutch!
They think a big head means a good lager and every pint you get is 80% head.
If I get a beer with no head I'm assuming the glass was dirty
Maybe it was a Czech Mlíko pour ;) The faucets they use are pretty cool (https://www.lukrfaucets.com/en/)
I'm not sure I understand, why didn't she just top it up?
Who knows, she obviously lacked experience, I guess she just panicked or worried it might be an issue with the barrel rather than her pour?
Right? Just top it up, let some of the foam cascade over the side... Foam always forms in the keg if it sits for too long so you need to let some of it out anyway.
In the UK and Ireland, a pint is 20 oz. (equivalent to just over 19 US ounces), so I always feel cheated by 16 oz. "pint" glasses in the US.
It is the same in Canada [1] yet I frequently see beer sold in "US pints" over here. I assume they do it so they can advertise cheaper prices (the amount being smaller). Some places will write the glass size in ounces, but some won't.
It is one of my pet peeves for sure.
[1]: https://ised-isde.canada.ca/site/measurement-canada/en/buyin...
Also in the US (probably due to lack of training and the customer too embarrassed to complaining) tend not to fill it the brim (and so not even 16''). I've seen 2-3 inch heads and asked them to top it up. They look at me as if I've just insulted George Washington.
Well, depending on the type of beer, that's intentional. It's not always the faux-pas that it would be to do this when serving cask ale in the UK.
But usually when that is the case they will use glassware that has a 20oz line on the glass with room for the head.
A pint in the Netherlands usually is 500ml. In very rare cases, but only in real pubs (not mass market "Irish" pubs) you get an actual pint. So you are cheated out of about ~68ml in that case. Vs the US you get a few ml more.
As far as I knew, Netherlands pubs typically sold:
- 200ml "fluitje" (little flute)
- 250ml "pintje" (little pint), often sold in a "vaasje" (vase, a tapered beer glass). This is the typical beer measure: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pintje "Het bestelde glas pils heeft doorgaans een inhoud van 25 cl"
They also sell standard bottled beer in 300ml and standard cans in 330ml: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standaardglas
I was not aware that 500ml was usual for the Netherlands. It is usual in, say, Germany, where they also sell the 1 litre Maß
The Maß is only a thing in Bavaria and strongly Bavarian-themed places, and almost nonexistent for bottles or cans anywhere in Germany. Faxe (which is Danish) sells one liter cans and some Czech brands sell or used to sell 1.5 liter plastic bottles - that's about it. The next common size is 5 liter mini kegs.
Do they actually call it a pint or just a half litre / large beer?
That's seems to be the norm in a lot of mainland Europe.
A standard US pint is about 473ml so a US pint is ~95ml less than an imperial pint.
Same thing here in France. Except I've never seen any "real" pints here, it's always 50cl.
It's not completely uncommon to be offered 16 oz or 20 oz as options in the US. But I see it more at "fast casual" restaurants than bars or more upscale restaurants.
And of course, what an "ounce" means may vary. According to Wikipedia "An imperial fluid ounce is defined in British law as exactly 28.4130625 millilitres, while a US customary fluid ounce is exactly 29.5735295625 mL, and a US food labelling fluid ounce is 30 mL."
The volume of UK and US fluid ounces being different also doesn't help.
The UK pint is 568ml, apparently a US pint is 473 ml.
This is why I get agitated when Americans claim to use imperial units. If they did, their pints would be the correct size.
Americans don't claim to use imperial weights and measures; they use customary weights and measures, which were also used in the UK prior to the creation of imperial units with the Weights and Measures Act 1824.
There are many people in America who do not know the difference, the mistake is fairly common.
At this point they are just American units, right? Since the UK has upgraded already.
The origin of US Customary units is British, even if the US, Liberia and Myanmar are the last countries still using it. The UK has almost entirely adopted metric (yards and miles are still used for measuring distances on roads and pints are still used for milk and beer, and the last government made the eccentric decision to permit pints for wine, which no producer used because they couldn't get the bottles), but these systems of units have identities beyond whether or not they're in use anywhere.
EDIT/CORRECTION: Milk is sold in multiples of 568 mL, so while the quantities are pints, the measurement is metric.
Beer and cider are the only drinks that are legally not sold by metric volume in the UK. They have to be served by the pint, 2/3, 1/2 or 1/3. Every other drink has to use metric.
But that just means the quantity has to be expressed in metric units, possibly in addition to imperial, correct? E.g. I currently have a carton of milk in my fridge that’s labelled “2272ml 4 pints”.
Not really. The UK uses imperial units for most of the things you use units for in daily life (roads, cooking, drink sizes, body weight, utilities, land area...), even though they theoretically converted to metric. Canada is similar.
_Human_ body weight. I grew up measuring everything in kilos apart from people, which has I guess what amounts to its own wholly idiosyncratic scale, the stone, that no one I've since met outside of the UK has heard of.
That's why we call it the US Customary System.
Many Americans do claim to use imperial units. They’re wrong, but they do claim it.
The (incorrect) claim is indeed made in every single metric vs "imperial" comments section I've come across.
surely if that was the claim George Washington would never have had his dream
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYqfVE-fykk
Your pubs kindly return the favor when we order whiskey. As Hunter S Thompson is reported to have quipped in a bar your side of the Atlantic: "What is this, a sample?"
That's fair, can't argue with that one.
Personally I'd have us use what the Royal Navy used to serve its rum ration in, the half-gill. This is 1/8 of a British pint or 71 millilitres, and the rum would have been a minimum of 54%!
Fractional gills were the pre-metric shot measure in the UK, but they were still pretty stingy. 1/6 gill in England, 1/5 or 1/4 gill in Scotland, and 1/4 gill in Northern Ireland.
In the EU I noticed lots of glasses had markings on the side - if it was full to the line, it was a pint (or liter or whatever).
McDonalds cups have a line for ice.
At least in the UK it's a legal requirement to use marked glassware when serving beer, cider and wine. (Or to use a marked measuring cylinder and pour that into the drinkware, which is sometimes done for wine.)
It's also the law in at least some EU countries, although I haven't checked beyond Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fill_line
In true British fashion the requirements for draught beer and cider are in pints, while wine is sold in millilitres.
Measuring beer is serious business in Germany to the point the EU commission had to comment on a rule change that supposedly forbade the usage of steins for foaming drinks (it didn't, but Germany wanted to be extra strict): https://www.bayern3.de/bier-steinkrug-eu-richtlinie
https://germany.representation.ec.europa.eu/news/klarstellun...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fill_line
Selling drinks in mislabeled containers should warrant a fraud report to your local consumer protection agency. A crowdsourcing app seems like the wrong tool here.
The US is a different place; though I will say that in Europe everything seemed to be right on the line, whereas in the US I'd say that most pours were to the very brim (likely giving me more than advertised).
and crucially, foam has to be above the line.
There is some back and forth around whether it's legal to serve beer in traditional ceramic steins, where customers can not verify that the foam really starts above the line.
As I understand, it is legal in Germany, but only if there is visible signage that informs customers about their right to pour their beer into a marked standard glass to check the amount. Source (German): https://www.abendblatt.de/incoming/article402102835/wer-hat-...
In 1899, an association was formed in Munich to combat fraudulent pouring. It was banned by the Nazis and re-formed in 1970. They went around and measured beers. This post is its spiritual successor. German: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verein_gegen_betr%C3%BCgerisch...
In the US at least it's pretty common to see bars using cheater pints. They look like 16 oz pint glasses but with a few tricks wind up only holding 14 oz
On the subject of the weights and measures to check that a pint is a pint, I remember the father of a friend of mine at university who was responsible for the weights and measures for Staffordshire. I think he was the undersheriff or something like that, and that the official pint was part of the collection.
This would have been in the late 80s - i've no idea if it was still in use, but i've a feeling that the law hadn't necessarily moved on, so I guess the official measure could have been required if challenged in court.
I discovered long ago that you might as well order a can in the states because you'll pay less and get effectively the same amount of beer.
This is the sort of goodness the internet was made for. I'm no beer drinker myself, but I'm already sharing it with those in my circles who do.
Also a great way to teach folks on how to hold others honest and accountable, a skill sorely underdeveloped at present. Start with the pours, and push upward from there.
In Canada (and I’m sure elsewhere) there are surprise inspections where government inspectors show up at petrol stations and see if the pump actually gives you what it claims.
I volunteer for the pub equivalent of this.
In the US every gas pump I've seen (I have not check the majority of states, but still a good sample) has a sticker on it stating inspections and who runs the state department that inspects them. Usually it is a yearly inspection (at least according to the sticker, maybe they do it more often I don't know)
Not just gas pumps, but any measuring device used to determine the price of a metered product. The scales at the register at supermarkets also have calibration stickers in my state.
Now that you mention it, I've seen them at some grocery stores - but generally not in a place I'd be looking unlike gas pumps where is is right next to the price and so you won't miss it.
I don't know if other companies do this anywhere but if you live in Ireland. Diageo have roles for people to travel around the country doing precisely this.
ah yes, the guinness vans, I do often see them out and about
I don't want my beer to taste like gasoline though.
Both may contain ethanol.
You're in luck. Measurement Canada has the authority to inspect pints. Typically they only act on complaints, though.
https://ised-isde.canada.ca/site/measurement-canada/en/buyin...
I have a feeling that if the USA did random, surprise inspections on businesses to make sure what they were selling was actually as-advertised, the whole system would be exposed as fraud within a month.
One thought I keep coming back to is the immense consequences of how our units of length, weight and volume were defined. Products are often sold with round numbers (1 liter, 0.5 liter, 1 kg, etc). If you could go back in time and fiddle with e.g. the definition of a pint, you'd see that reducing its volume would lead to people drinking less, until it's so small that people just order two pints.
I used to work in the Netherlands (i'm from the UK) and I could never understand how the Dutch put up with so much froth on their beer, even really enjoying being ripped off by it.
there is a calibration marker on the glass and the liquid has to be filled up to that line, the froth on top is extra. so on the continent we get more, not less. so from where we stand it looks rather like the islanders are ripped off ;-)
cheers
I'm not denying this, but I do remember a jug of beer being ordered and me being asked to pour it into several glasses without noticeable markings, and me trying to end up with about a 1/4 inch of head as I would in the UK and my Dutch friends yelling "more head" or something even less than polite.
Mostly in the NL I drink bottled beer. And I'm a Yorkshire man, at least by birth.
Yeah, in the Netherlands 2 finger widths is the norm. But if it's more than that, people will get upset that you're pouring them milk.
I really liked working in the NL, but their food and drink I could not get used to. I did a bit of consultancy at KLM, and what was offered for lunch in the cafeteria turned my stomach - artificial meat, artificial bread. I complained about this to one of the KLM staffers I was working with - "We know, We know, and of course the bosses never eat here"
Also, the Dutch idea of Chinese food is very strange (basically some sort of Indonesian thing - and I like Indonesian, but not that).
Anyway you in no way requested a critique of Dutch cuisine, but I'm glad I got it off my chest. So, apologies.
"You poured yourself a mega pint of red wine, correct?"
"A mega pint?"
I'll happily volunteer for this. I may have found my new purpose in life!
I've joked that the 16oz US pint was a long-play metric-system scheme to drive adoption of 500ml (~16.9oz) as a measure, a Pavlovian mechanic to trick beer-drinking Americans that the metric system is actually better because it results in more beer. The joke's on them. We're all about 12oz cans! 33cl? pfft...
Germans have it nailed down with the Kölsch Stange, a 200ml glass that so readily disappears that it stays cold and you just get another from the Kranz.
no one drinks it that way, except for those who drive. and believe me, for half a litre in half an hour one yields an acceptable beer temperature
Most useful website I've been on in a hot minute
> 79.3% of pours were short (under 100% of claimed volume)
That is quite surprising. What breweries used to do when I worked in cafes and bars was to paint a mark on the glass and under it write "0.5" (in market that sells in liters and not in pints) and this mark is above[1] the half liter mark. Note that it is without units.
Pubs and bars get glasses for cheap or free and the brewery/distributor tries to trick the bar into selling more beer than they expect.
[1] We checked using measure cups from the kitchen. Maybe there is a conspiracy to have kitchens use too little ingredients.
Thanks for sharing! Glad to see there's some momentum behind this libatious tragedy
Look, I get it. Beer is expensive, these days. Always has been. But I feel like these movements miss the forest for trees.
If we mandate beer volume then places that are “shorting” you will just raise the prices. Not to mention the tax on beer that would be required to pay for the inspection service. No one likes feeling like they got less than they paid for, but there’s solution is to take your business elsewhere.
Also, you know what really annoys me? When a bartender pulls a pint for me, and it’s up to the brim with no foam. Foam is part of the joy of a crisp beer. It adds aroma and anticipation. If I wanted to drink something with no foam I’d drink a soda. And in my heart of hearts (or stomach if stomachs?) I fear that’s where these arguments lead.
No one likes feeling like they got less than they paid for, but without regulation, how do you know that you got less than you paid for unless you're going to carry around a measuring glass yourself?
If the places that were shorting you have to raise prices when they have to give you what you paid for, that's false economy -- you're not saving money, if you want to drink less beer to save money, ask for a smaller glass.
There's a distinct difference between food retail and food service. This kind of regulation will harm the later, it does not belong. Are we going to weigh every pizza, every omelette, every side of fries too? We don't need to sterilize every single part of our food culture.
Anyone who has spent even a short amount of time in the food service business will be familiar with shrink. The average bar is probably seeing more than 15% shrinkage. The short pours are probably not offsetting that loss. Margins are thin.
Solutions for the neurotic drinker this website appeals to: - order a can or bottle - buy retail and stay home - go to a self pour joint and pay by volume. Bonus: you don't have to talk to anyone.
Otherwise put away the scale and talk to the bartender. Chances are you come away with plenty of free beer. Most small taprooms will help you find a beer you like by giving you free beer. If you're obsessing over getting what you paid for in food service, you're missing out on the true value of that industry.
Let's not harass our bartenders, a hell of a tough job, with scales. I spent years behind the case of a cut to order cheese shop. There's a time and place for scales. This is not it.
Bars are dying and are on thin margins so they have to do short pours, but if I just talk to a bartender, he'll give me plenty of free beer?
Yes, generally food service operates on thin margins. A neighborhood brewery probably won't be profitable for the first few years, then if successful might stabilize around 15% net* profit margin.
If you go to a beer bar or a tap room, a large part of the role of a bartender is helping you find beer that you like. Successful bars and bartenders thrive from repeat customers. Community is important. This is very obvious if you actually sit down at bars and talk to the people behind them.
I guess I feel the same way about that as I do about a steak. How do I know that the steak is the 16oz I ordered? Ultimately the most important part is if I found the experience satisfying enough to return, not whether the steak was within .5oz of its stated measurement.
The solution is in other comments. In the EU glasses are etched with a fill line. Not filled to the mark? You complain.
That seems very reasonable to me.
> No one likes feeling like they got less than they paid for, but there’s solution is to take your business elsewhere.
People need to know how much they got. it can be hard to judge, especially as you will be comparing across visits to different places on different days, and different styles of glass, etc.
I think your expected outcome is actually the desired one, to kill shrinkflation in favor of actual price increases. When the measures are all the same you can compare apples to apples across different businesses.
I had a mk1 diesel rabbit, which when asked about the mileage, I would reply that is got 15 miles to the pint, though further into my youth people still refered to a "point of rum", as a measure distinct from all others, but of course bieng Canadian, beer comes in quarts.
We’ve had laws requiring landlords to serve standardised pints the UK since 1698. This is not a new problem.
1985 is the current one: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1985/72/contents
It's why all bars will have a little plaque saying what size their shots are. Almost always 25ml these days, but 35ml was common in many places. You're allowed to serve shots of either size but not in the same pub.
( edit: Better link: https://www.gov.uk/weights-measures-and-packaging-the-law/sp... )
The way they got to the 25/ 35 split involves even more craziness. In England the law said spirits are always measured in sixths of a gill. This entire unit is obsolete, but 1/6 is a tiny bit less than 25ml. Fine.
However in Scotland two sizes were common, a fifth of a gill (slightly more generous than England) and a "nip" or quarter of a gill (a lot more generous). If you're used to ordering a "nip" of something and now you get a lot less you'd be very angry! So the 35ml option is there for the kind of Scottish or Irish establishment which would have been used to these larger measures rather than either try to keep the gill (which is a stupid unit nobody else needs) or anger drunk people.
I wouldn't be surprised if the "Make a sign" difference was to allow licensed premises to gradually shift to the more profitable, smaller, size. Maybe you change the place you own in Glasgow to 25ml first, and if the locals don't kick off you can try Aberdeen next, otherwise try again in a few years.
I did not know about the 35ml is OK too but not both on the same premises rule.
Great minds...
Agree this is a fact - we mark our glasses because of it. https://www.gov.uk/weights-measures-and-packaging-the-law/pr...
And they say England becoming low-trust is a recent change !
I like the CAMRA ones which have the pint line below the rim of the glass. Because technically the head doesn't count as part of the pint and there's a lot of back-and-forth about what the legally acceptable amount of head really is (CAMRA say 0%, pub associations serve 5%, pubs themselves serve whatever they think you'll pay for).
It’s such a small thing but when a brewery or restaurant featuring beers writes “pint” as an option and gives me a typical US beer glass (shaker I believe) it annoys the hell out of me. Don’t explicitly write “pint” if it isn’t at least north of 15oz. Definitely don’t if the glass literally can’t hold a pint.
I enjoyed reading this site and appreciate the passion and the effort.
The "loss of the pint" is basically shrink-flation. When a bar's costs and/or overhead goes up, they must do some combination of cutting expenses and raising prices. Raising prices means either selling the same stuff in the same quantity for more, or selling cheaper stuff OR less of the same stuff at the same price. Most bars will opt for the latter options to avoid raising prices, because raising prices is more likely to create complaints. All caveats apply, of course -- drop portions or quality too much or too often and you'll get complaints for sure, but "within reason" it's the lesser of two evils.
This is why I personally don't feel like I'm being cheated out of 2oz when I buy a $8 14oz shaker pint of IPA. Clearly, the cost per oz at this bar is $0.57. A 16oz glass would cost $9.14. They don't owe me the 2oz for free just because they used the word "pint". If the state government started enforcing pint measures again, bars would just drop the word "pint" from their signs and menus.
Is it called a shaker pint for association with the famously restrained Shakers?
According to my half-assed internet research, it's because it was designed to be used when shaking cocktails.
Now this is what the Internet is really supposed to be about.
As infuriating as it may be, it's a good occasion to learn to let go.
Rationally, you're paying way more than the liquid in the glass, so just mentally tell yourself that the haircut is included in the price, and that's fine. If you can't stand the price anyway, change bar.
You're there to chill. Just chill.
I'm sure the same individuals will calculate tip to the cent as well.
As someone who worked in specialty foods for years, you get what you get. Flaws and all. That's part of the charm of this industry. This is especially true for small craft breweries. If you insist on accuracy then ask for a can/bottle list. If you insist on consistency then buy macro.
Wait until they discover cocktails.
Bickering over a few dollars when you're paying a premium price for the experience of going out is rather silly. There's better uses of your time, like enjoying yourself.
If you're not familiar with the mess that was nips: https://carolinas.eater.com/2015/10/16/9553903/mini-bottles-...