AI companies love to hype up how AI will provide a great benefit to the economy and transform intellectual labor, but I hardly see any discussion about how much damage it will cause to the economy when you can no longer trust that you're on a video call with an actual person. Maybe the person you're interviewing is actually an AI impersonating someone, or maybe they never existed in the first place. Information found online will also no longer be trustable, footage of some incident somewhere may have been entirely fabricated by AI, and we already experience misleading articles today.
Money will have to be wasted on unnecessary flights to see stuff or meet people in-person instead of video, and the availability of actual information will become more and more limited as the sea of online information gets polluted with crap. It may never be possible to calculate the full extent of the damage in monetary value.
Partially agree.
However, this problem has existed with scam e-mails since the 90s.
For me the solution is in signed e-mails and signed documents. If the person invites me to a online meeting with a signed e-mail, I trust that person that it's really them.
Same for footage of wars, etc. The journalist taking it basically signs the videos and verifies it's authenticity. It is AI generated, then we would loose trust in that person and wouldn't use their material anymore.
> damage it will cause to the economy when you can no longer trust that you're on a video call with an actual person
What damage are you talking about?
I'm not sure I understand why it matters that there is no real person there if you can't actually tell the difference. You're just demonstrating that you don't actually need a human for whatever it is you're doing.
Because what you are actually doing is exchanging symbols, tokens, if you will, that may be redeemed in a future meatspace rendezvous for a good or service (e.g. a job, a parcel).
Instead what we have now with AI is people exchanging merely the tokens and being contented with the symbol in-and-of itself, as something valuable in its own right, with no need for an actual candidate or physical product underlying the symbol.
There is a clip by McLuhan I can't be assed to find right now where he says eventually people will stop deriving pleasure from the products themselves and instead derive the feelings of (projected) accomplishment and pleasure from viewing advertisements about the product.
A hiring manager interviewing an AI and offering it a job is like buying the advertisement you just watched, and.... that's it. No more, the transaction is complete.
The grandparent post has the belief that human interaction is intrinsically better. Not sure i agree, but i can understand the POV.
However, the increase in fake videos that are difficult to tell from real is indeed a potential issue. But the fact that misinformation today is already so prevalent is evidence that better video doesn't make it any worse than it already is imho.
I don't know of a solution. I don't think even identity verification will meaningfully solve this. People will get hacked, or provide their SEO-spamming agent with their own identity, or purposefully post fake videos under their own identity. As it becomes more normal to scan your ID to access random websites, it will also become easier to steal people's identities and the value of identity verification will go down.
People don't get hacked - devices get hacked. So all we need is a better chain of trust between two people. This is not a technology development problem as much as a technology implementation problem. And a political problem
I’m seeing a huge increase in companies requiring in person interviews now. Seems there is a real possibility the internet as we know it will be destroyed.
linkedin is completely destroyed now. There are tons of ai bots there but real humans are now fronts for AI. So you cant even trust content from from ppl you know.
identity serivce is not useful because that person might be a real person but they might just be a pipe to ai like we see on linkedin.
I've started to prove it (here on LinkedIn, countering its Moltbookification) via my bad handwriting – the final frontier of AGI. Finally, a lifetime of training to write more or less illegible pays off.
The same I am trying to do with my (vibe coded!) site "jetzt" (German for "now"), to which I photo blog impressions from everyday life. Only insiders will know what they mean beyond their aesthetic, and it also feels like a good way of human connection in these times.
> At first, my aunt wasn't buying that any AI was involved. [...] There was a long pause. "I was like 90% sure," she said, hesitating. "But that sounded more artificial."
There is a thing about many people. I don't remember the phenomenon's name, if it has one, but it goes like this:
Given enough time to reconsider options, people will be endlessly flip-flopping between them grabbing onto various features over and over in a loop.
Given enough time to reconsider options, people will be endlessly flip-flopping between them grabbing onto various features over and over in a loop.
People will default to believing something is AI if there's no downside to that opinion. It's a defence mechanism. It stops them being 'caught out' or tricked into believing something that's not true.
As soon as there's a potential loss (e.g. missing out on getting rich, not helping a loved one) people will switch off that cynical critical thinking and just fall for AI-driven scams.
This phenomenon (or a closely related one?) is recognized and known as Kotov Sydnrome in the context of chess.
A summary, courtesy of chess dot com:
> The name of this "syndrome" comes from GM Alexander Kotov, author of the classic chess book Think Like a Grandmaster. In the book, Kotov described an incorrect yet very common calculation process that often leads players to select a suboptimal or bad move.
> According to Kotov, in positions where the lines are complex and there are numerous candidate moves and variations to calculate, it's easy to make a hasty move. A player in that situation might spend too much time going over two moves and all of their ramifications without finding a favorable ending position. In that process, the player is likely to go back and forth between the two different lines, always coming to the same unsatisfying conclusion—this wastes precious mental energy and time.
> After spending too much time evaluating the first two options, the player gives up the calculation due to time pressure or fatigue and plays a third move without calculating it. According to the author, that sort of move can cause tremendous blunders and cost the game.
Dissonance between what you instinctively believe and what you think the other person wants you to say.
Easy to replicate by asking someone something obvious, like the weather, and when they reply ask “are you sure?” - they won’t be so sure any more (believing it’s a trick question)
If I ask my mother if I’m real, she’ll have a pause because she has never had to entertain such a question, or the possibility her son over the phone is an impostor. Good way to push someone towards paranoia and psychosis.
> Good way to push someone towards paranoia and psychosis.
Interestingly, these are both phenomena where we start to _lose_ the ability to question our thoughts or introspect. These are phenomena of self-confidence rather than of self-doubt.
This is the basis of the virtual kidnapping scam/grandparent scam, or panic manipulation more generally. The manufactured urgency keeps them from doubting: the voice on the phone being off is just fear, or a bad connection, for example.
I have personally intervened in one of those when I heard someone reading off a 6 digit number.
There's also another phenomenon which is that whatever the latest idea is, it must be the best. Many people do this mistake and even convince themselves of being right now because "they used to think like that" before.
So at each stage in the loop they are always super convinced of the position.
Even not being 100% confident, at some point people have to decide what to do.
Actions might include some continuous checks in them, like the famous plan, do, check, act.
Solipsism already tell us that anything beyond current present self experience, existence of anything is uncertain. So, almost everything one have to take for granted to make anything outside metaphysic argument require an act of faith.
Am I too naive in thinking the answer is rather simple? Cryptographic proofs (digital signatures). For text this should be trivial and for streaming video/audio you can probably hash and sign packets or maybe at least keyframes or something?
This is why you need a phrase that you've never shared in a text or on social media that you can use so your family knows it's you. Especially to protect them from scammers pretending to be you.
I bet that a confident scammer is prepared to deal with things like that. They want to put you in a state where you are under time and emotional pressure and your "relative" will have a well practiced response why they can't answer your weird questions.
Imagine your crying grandson who caused a traffic accident in Mexico and the police planted drugs in his car and now he needs money to pay them off. He is in pain and probably has a concussion (explanation why he can't remember what you are asking), the police is hassling him to get off the phone (time pressure, explanation why the quality of the call is terrible). Will you get hung up on some code word he asked you to memorise years ago and you can't even know where it is anymore? And if you bring it up he just starts crying and tells you that you are his last chance to turn his life around. And you remember when he was a wee little kid and he fell and scraped his knee and you comforted him. Just the thought of pressing him on the code makes you feel like a terrible person. Or not. And then the scammer just finds someone more gullible. Theirs is a number game after all.
Or just find a shared memory/moment not available on the internet when in doubt. I don't think people will be that eager to remember another passphrase.
> The solution the world's leading experts have landed on is one your grandparents could have come up with: codewords. You, your family, business partners and anyone else you communicate with about important subjects need to come up with a secret phrase that no-one else knows you can use in an emergency to verify each other's identities. Think of it like a convoluted form of the multi-factor authentication we all use to login online.
> "My wife and I have a codeword that we use if we ever get an unusual call," Farid says. "We haven't needed to use it yet, but sometimes I ask just to test her to make sure we don't forget it."
At this point "spotting AI" is IMO an irrelevant skill. It's something to be aware of but a bunch of the time I can't tell even with an extended look on static images, or if I'm on a phone and scrolling then nothing really tweaks automatically - perceptually the flaws blend exactly as you'd expect them to.
So it's all context clues really - i.e. if the video tracking shot is sort of within the constraints of the models, plays to obvious agendas etc. then I might tweak to go looking for artifacts...but in the propaganda game? That's already game over. And we're all vulnerable to the ground shifting beneath us - i.e. how much power would there be if you had a model which could just slightly exceed those "well known" limitations?
IMO the failure to implement strong distributed cryptography much earlier in the digital age is going to punish us hard for this - i.e. we haven't built a societal convention of verifying and authenticating digital communications amongst each other, and technology has finally caught up that it can fool our wetware now. It was needed well before this - e.g. the rise of the telephone scam and VOIP should've been when we figured out how to make sure people were in the habit of comprehending digital signatures and authentication. It isn't though, and now something much more dangerous is out there.
Recently one of my friends got email hijacked and whatever entity it was seemingly used her past sent emails as a training corpus to construct some very convincing pleas for donations involving a dog rescue she's been operating for several years.
It also included personal details only her closest friends and family would know. I assume this is being done at scale now. These are NOT Nigerian prince scams of yesteryear; this is something entirely different.
Perhaps we need tamper proof authenticated cameras in all major cities worldwide that publish a livestream 24/7 and you can then stand in front of them to prove your human existance...
This could be something that notaries around the world could offer as a service.
The options I have seen so far were a) using our digital IDs, which is very handy or b) having a bank verify my identity in person with my ID, which is also pretty good.
Or in general, a way to digitally sign a tamper-free video recoding made with a camera from a reputable manufacturer. Maybe a regular iPhone already has enough integrity checks and security contexts to achieve this.
AI companies love to hype up how AI will provide a great benefit to the economy and transform intellectual labor, but I hardly see any discussion about how much damage it will cause to the economy when you can no longer trust that you're on a video call with an actual person. Maybe the person you're interviewing is actually an AI impersonating someone, or maybe they never existed in the first place. Information found online will also no longer be trustable, footage of some incident somewhere may have been entirely fabricated by AI, and we already experience misleading articles today.
Money will have to be wasted on unnecessary flights to see stuff or meet people in-person instead of video, and the availability of actual information will become more and more limited as the sea of online information gets polluted with crap. It may never be possible to calculate the full extent of the damage in monetary value.
Partially agree. However, this problem has existed with scam e-mails since the 90s.
For me the solution is in signed e-mails and signed documents. If the person invites me to a online meeting with a signed e-mail, I trust that person that it's really them.
Same for footage of wars, etc. The journalist taking it basically signs the videos and verifies it's authenticity. It is AI generated, then we would loose trust in that person and wouldn't use their material anymore.
How do you prove the signature isn't fake?
Ultimately ID requires either a government ID service, a third party corporate ID service, or some kind of open hybrid - which doesn't exist.
All of those have their issues.
Spam emails in the 90’s don’t come remotely close to the operations people can set up by themselves with AI now.
If anything deepfakes will be good for the economy because if you can’t do business with people who are far away it becomes harder to outsource.
In general barriers to trust/trade are bad for tbr economy.
> damage it will cause to the economy when you can no longer trust that you're on a video call with an actual person
What damage are you talking about?
I'm not sure I understand why it matters that there is no real person there if you can't actually tell the difference. You're just demonstrating that you don't actually need a human for whatever it is you're doing.
Because what you are actually doing is exchanging symbols, tokens, if you will, that may be redeemed in a future meatspace rendezvous for a good or service (e.g. a job, a parcel).
Instead what we have now with AI is people exchanging merely the tokens and being contented with the symbol in-and-of itself, as something valuable in its own right, with no need for an actual candidate or physical product underlying the symbol.
There is a clip by McLuhan I can't be assed to find right now where he says eventually people will stop deriving pleasure from the products themselves and instead derive the feelings of (projected) accomplishment and pleasure from viewing advertisements about the product.
A hiring manager interviewing an AI and offering it a job is like buying the advertisement you just watched, and.... that's it. No more, the transaction is complete.
The grandparent post has the belief that human interaction is intrinsically better. Not sure i agree, but i can understand the POV.
However, the increase in fake videos that are difficult to tell from real is indeed a potential issue. But the fact that misinformation today is already so prevalent is evidence that better video doesn't make it any worse than it already is imho.
> What damage are you talking about?
Not GP, but there's a lot of damage that can be done with impersonation.
What's the solution apart from an identity providing service?
I don't know of a solution. I don't think even identity verification will meaningfully solve this. People will get hacked, or provide their SEO-spamming agent with their own identity, or purposefully post fake videos under their own identity. As it becomes more normal to scan your ID to access random websites, it will also become easier to steal people's identities and the value of identity verification will go down.
People don't get hacked - devices get hacked. So all we need is a better chain of trust between two people. This is not a technology development problem as much as a technology implementation problem. And a political problem
Agreed. The sphere of trust around each of us will shrink back to only those in our physical proximity. Outside of that, no one can be trusted.
I’m seeing a huge increase in companies requiring in person interviews now. Seems there is a real possibility the internet as we know it will be destroyed.
I think you might be right and I think I'll like some of the consequences and hate some of the others.
More in-person stuff feels like a win to me (and I say this as someone who probably counts as introverted).
Not being able to trust any online interactions anymore? Seems like a new height in what was already a negative.
linkedin is completely destroyed now. There are tons of ai bots there but real humans are now fronts for AI. So you cant even trust content from from ppl you know.
identity serivce is not useful because that person might be a real person but they might just be a pipe to ai like we see on linkedin.
That's just shifting the problem not solving it.
> footage of some incident somewhere may have been entirely fabricated by AI,
Or the opposite, where people attempt to get out of trouble by calling real evidence into question by calling it “AI”
Just say something that would violate AI safety. Then you can be sure they’re a real human.
“Auntie, it’s me! N*** k** f**! X is really a man! ** did 9/11!”
“Oh it really is you Johnny!”
We’re all going to have to start communicating this way. Best of luck.
I offer consulting services on the side to help professionals hone these skills. $250 / hour.
That's a bargain Johnny boy! My company gives me $250 in AI tokens to use every day!
I've started to prove it (here on LinkedIn, countering its Moltbookification) via my bad handwriting – the final frontier of AGI. Finally, a lifetime of training to write more or less illegible pays off.
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/fabianhemmert_handwriting-vs-...
It feels good to connect with humans that way.
The same I am trying to do with my (vibe coded!) site "jetzt" (German for "now"), to which I photo blog impressions from everyday life. Only insiders will know what they mean beyond their aesthetic, and it also feels like a good way of human connection in these times.
https://jetzt.cx/
(No food, no plane wings, just ugly banalities and beautiful nothingness from everyday life.)
Here's also a nice project, the "Reverse Turing Test":
https://ars.electronica.art/panic/de/view/reverse-turing-tes...
(I.e. trying to hide the fact that you're human, among a group of AIs)
> At first, my aunt wasn't buying that any AI was involved. [...] There was a long pause. "I was like 90% sure," she said, hesitating. "But that sounded more artificial."
There is a thing about many people. I don't remember the phenomenon's name, if it has one, but it goes like this:
Given enough time to reconsider options, people will be endlessly flip-flopping between them grabbing onto various features over and over in a loop.
Given enough time to reconsider options, people will be endlessly flip-flopping between them grabbing onto various features over and over in a loop.
People will default to believing something is AI if there's no downside to that opinion. It's a defence mechanism. It stops them being 'caught out' or tricked into believing something that's not true.
As soon as there's a potential loss (e.g. missing out on getting rich, not helping a loved one) people will switch off that cynical critical thinking and just fall for AI-driven scams.
This is the downside of being a human being.
This phenomenon (or a closely related one?) is recognized and known as Kotov Sydnrome in the context of chess.
A summary, courtesy of chess dot com:
> The name of this "syndrome" comes from GM Alexander Kotov, author of the classic chess book Think Like a Grandmaster. In the book, Kotov described an incorrect yet very common calculation process that often leads players to select a suboptimal or bad move.
> According to Kotov, in positions where the lines are complex and there are numerous candidate moves and variations to calculate, it's easy to make a hasty move. A player in that situation might spend too much time going over two moves and all of their ramifications without finding a favorable ending position. In that process, the player is likely to go back and forth between the two different lines, always coming to the same unsatisfying conclusion—this wastes precious mental energy and time.
> After spending too much time evaluating the first two options, the player gives up the calculation due to time pressure or fatigue and plays a third move without calculating it. According to the author, that sort of move can cause tremendous blunders and cost the game.
Dissonance between what you instinctively believe and what you think the other person wants you to say.
Easy to replicate by asking someone something obvious, like the weather, and when they reply ask “are you sure?” - they won’t be so sure any more (believing it’s a trick question)
If I ask my mother if I’m real, she’ll have a pause because she has never had to entertain such a question, or the possibility her son over the phone is an impostor. Good way to push someone towards paranoia and psychosis.
> Good way to push someone towards paranoia and psychosis.
Interestingly, these are both phenomena where we start to _lose_ the ability to question our thoughts or introspect. These are phenomena of self-confidence rather than of self-doubt.
This is the basis of the virtual kidnapping scam/grandparent scam, or panic manipulation more generally. The manufactured urgency keeps them from doubting: the voice on the phone being off is just fear, or a bad connection, for example.
I have personally intervened in one of those when I heard someone reading off a 6 digit number.
Paradox of choice? It's more related to the number of choices and the impact on people's anxiety, but it's close.
Analysis Paralysis?
There's also another phenomenon which is that whatever the latest idea is, it must be the best. Many people do this mistake and even convince themselves of being right now because "they used to think like that" before.
So at each stage in the loop they are always super convinced of the position.
Even not being 100% confident, at some point people have to decide what to do.
Actions might include some continuous checks in them, like the famous plan, do, check, act.
Solipsism already tell us that anything beyond current present self experience, existence of anything is uncertain. So, almost everything one have to take for granted to make anything outside metaphysic argument require an act of faith.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism
Am I too naive in thinking the answer is rather simple? Cryptographic proofs (digital signatures). For text this should be trivial and for streaming video/audio you can probably hash and sign packets or maybe at least keyframes or something?
> "Six fingers is not an AI thing anymore," Carrasco says. The best AI tools stopped adding extra fingers years ago
How was this solved, actually? More training data, or was there more to it?
[dead]
This is why you need a phrase that you've never shared in a text or on social media that you can use so your family knows it's you. Especially to protect them from scammers pretending to be you.
I bet that a confident scammer is prepared to deal with things like that. They want to put you in a state where you are under time and emotional pressure and your "relative" will have a well practiced response why they can't answer your weird questions.
Imagine your crying grandson who caused a traffic accident in Mexico and the police planted drugs in his car and now he needs money to pay them off. He is in pain and probably has a concussion (explanation why he can't remember what you are asking), the police is hassling him to get off the phone (time pressure, explanation why the quality of the call is terrible). Will you get hung up on some code word he asked you to memorise years ago and you can't even know where it is anymore? And if you bring it up he just starts crying and tells you that you are his last chance to turn his life around. And you remember when he was a wee little kid and he fell and scraped his knee and you comforted him. Just the thought of pressing him on the code makes you feel like a terrible person. Or not. And then the scammer just finds someone more gullible. Theirs is a number game after all.
Or just find a shared memory/moment not available on the internet when in doubt. I don't think people will be that eager to remember another passphrase.
We have two for our alarm system, a shibboleth and a duress word. You write yours a card and seal the envelope and it's couriered to the operators.
A password, you mean?
More like a Shibboleth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth
In the broad sense of a shared secret, yes
The text calls it a codeword:
> The solution the world's leading experts have landed on is one your grandparents could have come up with: codewords. You, your family, business partners and anyone else you communicate with about important subjects need to come up with a secret phrase that no-one else knows you can use in an emergency to verify each other's identities. Think of it like a convoluted form of the multi-factor authentication we all use to login online.
> "My wife and I have a codeword that we use if we ever get an unusual call," Farid says. "We haven't needed to use it yet, but sometimes I ask just to test her to make sure we don't forget it."
Show up in person, she's still not convinced.
Remember hotornot.com? Soon we can muse at realornot.com
At this point "spotting AI" is IMO an irrelevant skill. It's something to be aware of but a bunch of the time I can't tell even with an extended look on static images, or if I'm on a phone and scrolling then nothing really tweaks automatically - perceptually the flaws blend exactly as you'd expect them to.
So it's all context clues really - i.e. if the video tracking shot is sort of within the constraints of the models, plays to obvious agendas etc. then I might tweak to go looking for artifacts...but in the propaganda game? That's already game over. And we're all vulnerable to the ground shifting beneath us - i.e. how much power would there be if you had a model which could just slightly exceed those "well known" limitations?
IMO the failure to implement strong distributed cryptography much earlier in the digital age is going to punish us hard for this - i.e. we haven't built a societal convention of verifying and authenticating digital communications amongst each other, and technology has finally caught up that it can fool our wetware now. It was needed well before this - e.g. the rise of the telephone scam and VOIP should've been when we figured out how to make sure people were in the habit of comprehending digital signatures and authentication. It isn't though, and now something much more dangerous is out there.
Recently one of my friends got email hijacked and whatever entity it was seemingly used her past sent emails as a training corpus to construct some very convincing pleas for donations involving a dog rescue she's been operating for several years.
It also included personal details only her closest friends and family would know. I assume this is being done at scale now. These are NOT Nigerian prince scams of yesteryear; this is something entirely different.
[dead]
[dead]
[dead]
Here's a free business idea:
Perhaps we need tamper proof authenticated cameras in all major cities worldwide that publish a livestream 24/7 and you can then stand in front of them to prove your human existance...
This could be something that notaries around the world could offer as a service.
I heard that in France, they'd use postal office workers to verify people's IDs. It's a brilliant alternative to whatever we're doing in Germany.
We couldn't possibly employ people to solve the problem. Don't you know the post office is a waste of money?
Isn’t that just like Postident in Germany?
What are we doing in Germany?
The options I have seen so far were a) using our digital IDs, which is very handy or b) having a bank verify my identity in person with my ID, which is also pretty good.
Don't we have PostIdent in Germany? At least I used it to open my bank account.
Today, we proudly announce, the Meta Rayban 365
Or in general, a way to digitally sign a tamper-free video recoding made with a camera from a reputable manufacturer. Maybe a regular iPhone already has enough integrity checks and security contexts to achieve this.
How exactly would this make money
Instead of having it constantly running, you have to pay to turn it on for a couple of minutes.
The bus that couldn’t slow down.
We used to have something similar in NZ. Got removed eventually because of flashing.