> And the men that had spent longer looking after babies showed the largest drops in testosterone. Those that shared a bed with their infants also had lower levels.
Dad here. Maybe…it’s the lack of sleep? Involved fathers tend to have less sleep.
I looked into this, admittedly with Claude, seems lack of sleep doesn’t affect T and the studies accounted for it so there is a real effect somewhere (if you believe Claude).
Regardless the “women are better caregivers, fatherhood lowers male hormones to make us more womanly and thus better for our kids” subplot is completely unsupported by the research and somebody’s editorial opinion.
As a father of 3 daughters now approaching 50 with my oldest now 24 … I will say that I believe some of this is true. Perhaps it is just the life altering effect of raising children or maybe is biological as well. You can definitely pickup on whether another male is a father or not.
Saw this earlier today, I think it’s very flawed an ideological, unfortunately other posts mentioning this got flagged.
First there’s the idea that “nurturing” is somehow what kids need and better for them automatically, that whatever a stereotypical man does with kids is bad for them, and we need to be rewired by pheromones or whatever to be more sensitive.
And as a corollary the idea that a high-T man somehow is a worse caregiver, and that it needs to be reigned in by some adaptation.
The whole thing is definitely framed for a certain world view, it’s definitely not the only interpretation.
It's worth noting though that the actions of the "stereotypical man" are strongly culturally informed, and not neccessarily indicative of whatever evolutionary pressures would've wired males brains whatever way they're wired for fatherhood. I don't think we have much direct evidence of ancient female and male parent roles (apart from being able to infer the obvious, like that females would've breastfed).
I find it very odd that the rest of the comments are sort of... not agreeing with the findings in the article.
I became a father recently (:D) and it's been an emotional rollercoaster for me. I had been frantically Googling my "symptoms" and asking around what's wrong with me, because it seems I've been quite sensitive since the birth of my baby.
I think the article is spot on — the more time you spend with your baby and care for them, the more oxytocin you get and the more your testosterone drops (I cried when my baby first spoke — cooed, really — to me, for example, and that's just one instance).
Edit: I want to take this opportunity to say — fuck companies that don't give paternity leave. This is fucking hard to do alone, so be nice to your employees and offer paternity benefits. I'm in India, where paternity leave isn't required, so I was told to fuck off when I asked for time off.
Maybe its being older already but I don’t feel super changed having a baby like people told me I would. I don’t do work or hobbies or socializing any differently. Everything else in my life didnt suddenly seem unimportant.
The one big difference is up to now I though crying babies were annoying and subconsiously somehow blamed parents. Now I see how foolish that was as babies are born knowing nothing and are just adorable little people trying their best to get their needs met and handle emotions.
the problem with most research about humans is that the variance is usually massive. The study could be true on average and that could still leave millions of men who the study doesn't end up applying to.
Mom brain is also a thing. Large scale, consistent, structural changes in the postpartum brain that is uncorrelated with PPD.
https://doi.org/10.1093/cercor/bhab463
It makes sense as a layman - less testosterone means less fighting, aggressive behavior, chasing other mates, etc. Ensures more success for your offspring.
> that men have all the necessary biological wiring to be "every bit as protective and nurturing as the most committed mother
This seems like an overstatement - man can't give birth to babies (which involves transfer of the mothers biome to the baby) or feed babies (which typically involves lactation).
I edited the post to add a little more detail for people that (it seems, based on bizarre moderation of widely accepted realities) thought "men can't give birth to or feed babies" wasn't specific enough.
> And the men that had spent longer looking after babies showed the largest drops in testosterone. Those that shared a bed with their infants also had lower levels.
Dad here. Maybe…it’s the lack of sleep? Involved fathers tend to have less sleep.
I looked into this, admittedly with Claude, seems lack of sleep doesn’t affect T and the studies accounted for it so there is a real effect somewhere (if you believe Claude).
Regardless the “women are better caregivers, fatherhood lowers male hormones to make us more womanly and thus better for our kids” subplot is completely unsupported by the research and somebody’s editorial opinion.
As a father of 3 daughters now approaching 50 with my oldest now 24 … I will say that I believe some of this is true. Perhaps it is just the life altering effect of raising children or maybe is biological as well. You can definitely pickup on whether another male is a father or not.
Saw this earlier today, I think it’s very flawed an ideological, unfortunately other posts mentioning this got flagged.
First there’s the idea that “nurturing” is somehow what kids need and better for them automatically, that whatever a stereotypical man does with kids is bad for them, and we need to be rewired by pheromones or whatever to be more sensitive. And as a corollary the idea that a high-T man somehow is a worse caregiver, and that it needs to be reigned in by some adaptation. The whole thing is definitely framed for a certain world view, it’s definitely not the only interpretation.
There's some interesting research on the effect of T in mice which has been challenging traditional assumptions of its role in males: https://news.emory.edu/stories/2022/08/esc_testosterone_anim...
It's worth noting though that the actions of the "stereotypical man" are strongly culturally informed, and not neccessarily indicative of whatever evolutionary pressures would've wired males brains whatever way they're wired for fatherhood. I don't think we have much direct evidence of ancient female and male parent roles (apart from being able to infer the obvious, like that females would've breastfed).
I find it very odd that the rest of the comments are sort of... not agreeing with the findings in the article.
I became a father recently (:D) and it's been an emotional rollercoaster for me. I had been frantically Googling my "symptoms" and asking around what's wrong with me, because it seems I've been quite sensitive since the birth of my baby.
One way to explain this is the Gordon Ramsay meme (https://imgflip.com/memetemplate/211147137/Oh-dear-dear-gorg..., LHS = my reaction to my baby, RHS = my reaction to other kids before my baby was born).
I think the article is spot on — the more time you spend with your baby and care for them, the more oxytocin you get and the more your testosterone drops (I cried when my baby first spoke — cooed, really — to me, for example, and that's just one instance).
Edit: I want to take this opportunity to say — fuck companies that don't give paternity leave. This is fucking hard to do alone, so be nice to your employees and offer paternity benefits. I'm in India, where paternity leave isn't required, so I was told to fuck off when I asked for time off.
Maybe its being older already but I don’t feel super changed having a baby like people told me I would. I don’t do work or hobbies or socializing any differently. Everything else in my life didnt suddenly seem unimportant.
The one big difference is up to now I though crying babies were annoying and subconsiously somehow blamed parents. Now I see how foolish that was as babies are born knowing nothing and are just adorable little people trying their best to get their needs met and handle emotions.
the problem with most research about humans is that the variance is usually massive. The study could be true on average and that could still leave millions of men who the study doesn't end up applying to.
Mom brain is also a thing. Large scale, consistent, structural changes in the postpartum brain that is uncorrelated with PPD. https://doi.org/10.1093/cercor/bhab463
It makes sense as a layman - less testosterone means less fighting, aggressive behavior, chasing other mates, etc. Ensures more success for your offspring.
No longer having social interaction and lack of sleep can also lower testosterone levels?
I swear my hearing got more sensitive with kids. Also, some commercials hit differently.
I can’t read news stories about something terrible that happened to a child since having kids.
Positive sign that this article wasn't AI
you have to control for the stress, lack of sleep etc.
do partners who purchase a puppy also have lower T in the following months if they are primary caregivers?
I wouldn’t trust these sourced studies - smells exactly like replication crisis findings.
Malcom Gladwell meticulously sourced the researchers when he was writing his books. He got everything right. It was all the researchers who lied.
> that men have all the necessary biological wiring to be "every bit as protective and nurturing as the most committed mother
This seems like an overstatement - man can't give birth to babies (which involves transfer of the mothers biome to the baby) or feed babies (which typically involves lactation).
Is it correlation or causation?
Testosterone also drops when you dont get enough sleep, which is a universal lifestyle change for parents.
I edited the post to add a little more detail for people that (it seems, based on bizarre moderation of widely accepted realities) thought "men can't give birth to or feed babies" wasn't specific enough.