> limit or disable certain functionality in the vehicle: ... over-the-air updates, which provide new ... safety enhancements ...
I wonder what happens if you disable the e-SIM (in the US) and then a safety recall appears via software update - do dealers have any way to update control modules besides OTA?
This is a huge unresolved issue with EVs IMO; ICE cars are required to provide emissions-relevant updates over software which can operate using a J2534 passthrough device, which effectively means powertrain modules have to allow (potentially signed) updates over CAN using software that can be obtained by an end user (a lot of people don't know this; for almost any ICE car in the US, you can buy a 3-day or 1-week subscription to the dealership level diagnostic software for a somewhat reasonable fee and use it with a J2534 device).
But for EVs, there's no such rule and as far as I can tell it's entirely a gray area in the US now; the NHTSA require a "remedy" for recalls but nobody seems to have pushed back to determine whether OTA is truly a remedy. The traditional autos all offer dealerships as a backup option, but Tesla and Rivian have several recalls with only OTA remedies already. This seems sketchy.
> I wonder what happens if you disable the e-SIM (in the US) and then a safety recall appears via software update - do dealers have any way to update control modules besides OTA?
I would assume so. Even on older cars, service techs can typically manually push firmware updates over the OBD-II / J2534 port. Rivian's OBD-II port actually hides an Ethernet signal inside of it - so the interface is certainly there.
> Rivian's OBD-II port actually hides an Ethernet signal inside of it - so the interface is certainly there.
Nice. This is really normal now, for what it's worth - all of the European makes have moved this direction as well (DoIP over ENET). There's shockingly little documentation about Rivian online, though, probably because emissions regulation doesn't mandate it.
Yep! Depending on the vintage, BMWs have "real" DoIP or a BMW-ized version (sort of like how KWP2000 was the predecessor to UDS). For emissions modules, they still also have to support updates over UDS as well as ENET, though, for the above mentioned J2534 reasons (Ethernet wasn't added to J2534 until 2022).
Nice, thanks for the reply; this is surprisingly undocumented online. Presumably if they got cornered and the module under repair was updatable via this mechanism they'd have some ability to use that system, then. I wonder how charitable they will be about using it for non-recall updates for customers who have solely chosen to opt out.
Rivian are probably the only major manufacturer I've never had a chance to look at in any RE capacity and I'm getting more curious by the second. The reaction their vehicles had to the infamous bricked-infotainment update actually represented a pretty good adherence to safety guidelines (the drivetrain as well as the speedometer and warning lights on the cluster still worked in a degraded format even when the infotainment was bricked) IMO, so they do seem to apply a reasonable degree of care.
WiFi is, err, still OTA, although it does answer the eSIM question. I assume the truly concerned/paranoid wouldn't want to connect to WiFi either, since presumably telemetry / tracking metadata could be uploaded at that time too.
I wonder what happens if you disable the e-SIM (in the US) and then a safety recall appears via software update - do dealers have any way to update control modules besides OTA?
Yes.
You get a letter in the mail asking you to take your car to the dealer so they can install the update.
Interesting, I reviewed every Rivian software update recall letter I could find before I posted this and they all said something like "If you have not already updated to software version 2025.18.30 or later, please do so to remedy this issue at no cost to you," with no mention of the dealership as a remedy - for example, https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2025/RCLRPT-25V585-0759.pdf . This is different from other manufacturers who explicitly mention the dealer, like this Ford EV recall: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2025/RCAK-25V863-3736.pdf
>Nissan earned its second-to-last spot for collecting some of the creepiest categories of data we have ever seen. [Their privacy policy] includes your “sexual activity.” Not to be out done, Kia also mentions they can collect information about your “sex life” in their privacy policy. Oh, and six car companies say they can collect your “genetic information” or “genetic characteristics.”
Ignoring the fact that it's absolutely unhinged and bonkers to include that in the first place, I don't even understand how they could possibly ever get any information about that. Are they using LLMs to generate these policies without review? Or are there really lawyers out there who thought this was pertinent and important to include?
Any car that can record audio in the cabin could have information about your sexual activity. Could also argue it based on location data.
Some laws require discussing very specific lists of categories of information they might have. I'm guessing this is a completionist CYA lawyer accounting for this.
They’re just including everything to be clear that you have no privacy in this agreement, so they don’t have to think about it too much when they realize there’s something more they can collect.
Well, there's the old cliche of someone being conceived in the back seat of their grandparent's Chevy... so a little extra DSP analysis with the seat occupancy sensors? :-)
Firefox also has a setting like this, although I think it's even nicer in that it makes everything (current and future) AI default to opt-out, but still lets you opt in to specific use cases if you want.
Yes, indeed it does. I didn't feel this way until I worked for a YC-backed startup tho. I mean, YC is the first to admit that not everything needs to be VC funded and some things just aren't good fit for that funding model. I think a code editor is one of them.
I remember yanking out the onstar unit in my 2015 silverado to physically disconnect the cell antenna. This was (is?) the only practical way to disable cellular in that vehicle.
Kudos to Rivian for making this a supported user privacy feature.
As someone who got into a rollover accident which ended with my car upside down on a freeway, hearing only the onstar person talking to me while half conscious, this is sad.
I do distinctely remember strongly disliking the user agreement I signed for the "internet connected" features of the car when I bought it. 100% rubbed me the wrong way and I couldn't' find a way to opt out, and I wasn't so motivated to physically remove it from my new car. Thankfully.
> As someone who got into a rollover accident which ended with my car upside down on a freeway, hearing only the onstar person talking to me while half conscious, this is sad.
Maybe in theory, but I trust Apple to detect a crash correctly about as far as I can throw my iPhone without breaking its glass back or front.
This is the company whose flagship voice assistant, in 2026, can’t tell the intended recipient in a sentence like “Text Bob Mary signed the deal.” And if my phone happens to be thrown into the back of the car by the crash, I doubt anyone will be able to hear me.
Not to mention that OnStar has operators who talk to first responders. the cell phone thing will just call 911 and hope for the best.
Lol, same thing for Android, too. It has full access to my contact list, but if I tell it to "Call Stephan Beier" I see the transcript for "Beyer" and then it fails. That sounds the same in German, now what shall I do. Stupid thing.
Only if it hasn't been crushed, damaged, or otherwise flung out of the vehicle that crashed so violently that it's actually upside down, as noted in the original comment.
They've fixed that in later models, disconnecting the module disables the dash now.
But don't worry, the FTC is out to protect you. Their settlement with GM says that can only sell your name attached to zipcode resolution location data and only sell your precise location trace attached to an opaque ID rather than your name.
Disabling internet connectivity disables lane keeping assistance. I wonder if this is a dark pattern to punish users who opt out or because they feel they need reports of crashes ahead to do it safely.
I believe the "advanced" LKAS on Rivian only works on highways and relies on an "up to date" geofencing database, so that's the first-order technical reason. And I'm sure they don't exactly prioritize fixing or altering that behavior for the other reason.
This is a safety issue. I don’t think there is a “fix” for offline lane assistance that they are sitting on do avoid people from disabling telemetry
The gen 1 system uses cameras primarily. It’s not awesome lidar or AI. It needs up to date road information.
I’ve been driving down I-5, a major interstate and had it turn off on me, presumably because I hit a dead spot, as conditions were fine and I5 is one of the most popular routes there is.
I’m fine with all of this. I prefer that it hand back control to me rather than make me another statistic like Tesla’s system.
Sure; I think that's a reasonable take too. I have no idea what their TTL requirements are or how frequently they update the ADAS database; if they're on the order of real-time, this seems like a complete technical constraint, if they're on a longer time horizon they might be able to offer manual offline databases.
I'm very curious at what level the restrictions operate. With every other manufacturer I've looked at, they're extremely coarse-grained; it's more like "is there a known long-time-horizon hazard in this area that is known to impair the system" than a "we mapped every lane and you need a database." I wonder if your I5 issue was a weeks or months-old construction area, for example. I haven't looked at Rivian much, though, and it could be totally different or extremely fine grained, there's no reason to suggest otherwise either.
I think it's a coarse-grained "this highway has been deemed non-anomalous enough to allow the vision systems to engage," not a fine-grained "we mapped every lane marking."
I assume by lane keeping assistance they mean the more basic camera based system to warn and potentially correct drivers if they drift over a line without indicating. It makes sense it could also be geofenced to limit it to highways.
Lane keeping assistance is optional on any vehicle. I don't believe there is any current production in which you can't opt out of lane keeping assistance?
If you need lane keeping assistance you should just accept you need internet connectivity at all times like wtf cars didn’t always have that just drive straight.
They need to keep lane availability up to date - lanes get closed for repair or realignment sometimes and it’d suck to rear-end an 18 ton grader because you don’t have current DOT info…
Anybody relying on lane-keeping assistance to prevent from slamming into the back of big yellow construction vehicle is doing it wrong, and we should be thankful they didn't hit something else with more victims.
My assumption would be that lane keeping would be about staying in the lines ahead of you, not knowing which lanes are available on the route. Available lanes can change in real-time due to all kinds of reasons.
I think the term has been used for various capabilities over the years.
My friend's 10-year-old Toyota will chirp annoyingly if you drift over a lane line but that's all it does. It doesn't have any ability to steer the car back into the center of the lane. Is that "lane keeping"?
I've seen lanes on highways that abruptly end with zero markings or signs - the concrete barriers just force you into the other lane just as you realize what's going on.
Why cant users disable connectivity elsewhere other thsn canada? People are supposed to call their car dealer each time after car update before turning it off again? Seems to be a cheap pr stunt to portray canadian regulation in attempt to shed good light on rivian
Amusingly, my Cupra Born has all its connectivity disabled... because Cupra Australia just didn't want to bring it to this country. Not a bad thing really, aside from the annoying red notification dot telling me I have no signal!
Very tangentially related- Does Rivian put software licenses in the OS UI somewhere? Couldn't find it when I was playing with my friend's car. Seems odd if it is android-based...
It would have been much better to be able to disable telemetry without losing basic functionality such as navigation and safety updates. Having to choose between being spied on and having no connectivity at all is a false dichotomy.
Any connectivity at all is telemetry. The connection itself reveals where you are. Navigation reveals where you are down to the meter, along with everywhere you've been, where you're going, speed, etc. What else are you worried about if not that?
It reveals where you are to the cell towers, but not to the car company. My phone already reveals where I am based on its cellular connectivity, so I'm not too worried about that.
I’m not OP but I just want to point out that navigation doesn’t need to mean I am always sharing telemetry with multiple third parties
I have a garmin watch which is great for overland hiking, multiple day expeditions etc
I download the maps and the watch has GPS to plot where I am on that map. My watch doesn’t have an eSIM at all.
Rivian is an adventure brand so if they wanted to design a maps system like that, where I am not continually downloading tiles from open maps or google and sending my location to them and others, they probably could
I just don’t think they have space for those types of features most people don’t care about while they are trying to compete in a rough industry and deliver new vehicles
Why would you be sharing that? There's no reason why the navigation system needs to constantly tell a remote system where you are. Navigation systems don't even need an Internet connection for basic routing.
>For non-Canadian vehicles, you may reach out to Rivian Service to request that we disable the eSIM card in the vehicle through a service appointment.
Why is that? I really don't want to bring it to the shop to turn off the radio. In Canada it's a toggle in the settings. Is there Canadian legislation mandating this or something?
It was expensive but every day I am happy with my Rivian purchase. Great to have a vehicle where the actual users are obviously thought of (contra for instance the cybertruck where some variety 'cool factor' was obviously prioritized, resulting in finger crunching hoods and such).
This is the sign of a company who listens to their customers. They have received feedback saying some people don't want a connected car, so they make it an option.
I’m weighing whether I should get a Slate or R2 next. Yet, somehow, I feel like these don’t compete directly much. Perhaps I’m wrong. My friends with R1s would never consider a Slate. Maybe the R2 is more of a match even at twice the price.
Annoying how it doesn't disable the cell modem from registering to a network (in Canada). So no it doesn't provide any tracking protection. Or at least that is how it sounds.
If they can make it a toggle for Canadian vehicles, why do you need to schedule an appointment in the US? Obviously it's so they can try to talk you out of it, but c'mon, just give everyone a toggle.
> For non-Canadian vehicles, you may reach out to Rivian Service to request that we disable the eSIM card in the vehicle through a service appointment.
I certainly appreciate that disabling network connectivity is even possible, but a bit scummy that non-Canadians have to make an in-person service appointment.
Is there some Canadian law at play here that requires they permit Canadians to disable this easily from the GUI? Would love legislation like that in the US.
This is, in a word, crap. We give you a fake option to turn off data and make it egregious by killing features that shouldn't need it like lane keeping. How about instead a real privacy option that actually is true? 'Block identification'. 'disable sim when not in use'. 'no server side storage'. And, yes, do allow turning off all data and NOT from a service call, just a simple option. Also don't block features that clearly don't need that like lane following.
Having ranted a bit though, in the world of car companies an official policy on how to turn data off is amazing. The bar is so low right now that it is crazy to think this terrible implementation riddled with dark patterns is a 'win'. These companies need to be shut down.
My understanding is that Rivian’s lane keeping (and other features like it) are only possible because of driving data collected to train their models.
It’s not such a stretch to believe that there’s some aspect of this that is specific to a driver or to a vehicle, and so requires that they collect your data. Even if this is not accurate, I can see a business making the decision that, given they need more and more data to improve the model, they would not allow customers to opt-out of that training cohort and still use the feature. Incentives etc.
Directionally though, I am with you on auto telematics data collection; I am not sure you can even buy a new car in the US that doesn’t ship with tracking, and many manufacturers (like the one who makes my car) don’t allow opt out at all. Fcking Stellantis
I’m still very happy with my 2024 4Runner, one of the purchases I never regretted a single bit, I did have a Sony head unit installed for a larger screen with support of wireless Apple CarPlay, and that’s enough tech in a car for me. My wife keeps complaining about its lack of auto lane keeping but I’m ok with it bc I enjoy driving it.
Ideally, they would support Android Auto and Apple CarPlay. There are a few big reasons this is preferable.
- I already pay for internet on my phone, I'm not interested in paying for another cellular service just to get maps and music streaming on the screen in my car. GM ditched CarPlay specifically to push customers to their subscription service. I know some electric automakers are offering it "for free", but I do not trust that it will remain free, and that's important when spending tens of thousands of dollars on something you plan to use for a decade+.
- Third party app ecosystem means I can use the maps and music player I want, and not just what my car manufacturer decides is worth including.
- Auto manufacturers suck at software. I've yet to use an infotainment system that wasn't a stark downgrade from CarPlay.
Basically, my car shouldn't need an internet connection because my smartphone already does all the same things but better.
They could store data and then dump it later when the vehicle is being serviced. Unless their privacy states otherwise, assume data is being gathered and sold. Other car manufactures have been caught selling travel data. It's not even that paranoid. Google has been fined in the past for secretly collecting location data in Android when offline and then relaying it back to HQ once the phone got a signal.
>It sounds to me like this is more akin to the Cellular Data toggle on Android as opposed to Aeroplane mode. If that is the case, it will presumably not prevent your vehicle from connecting to cellular base stations, which means your vehicle will still be trackable by network operators.
Your phone still connects to the cellular network without a sim card or eSim. It is mandated by law in the US. The only way to prevent your phone from connecting/pinging/being pinged by the cellular network is to put it in airplane mode.
Whether there is a sim enabled/disabled/installed is irrelevant. The question is whether this feature is Airplain Mode or if it is just disable cellular.
Ah, I thought you were likening it to the disable cellular data button which does not disconnect the cellular network.
Instead you are referring to the fact that the radio may remain on even if it has no active SIM card.
Given that the primary concern of connected vehicles is changes over time and manufacturer control, I don’t see any reason to make that distinction for most people.
> limit or disable certain functionality in the vehicle: ... over-the-air updates, which provide new ... safety enhancements ...
I wonder what happens if you disable the e-SIM (in the US) and then a safety recall appears via software update - do dealers have any way to update control modules besides OTA?
This is a huge unresolved issue with EVs IMO; ICE cars are required to provide emissions-relevant updates over software which can operate using a J2534 passthrough device, which effectively means powertrain modules have to allow (potentially signed) updates over CAN using software that can be obtained by an end user (a lot of people don't know this; for almost any ICE car in the US, you can buy a 3-day or 1-week subscription to the dealership level diagnostic software for a somewhat reasonable fee and use it with a J2534 device).
But for EVs, there's no such rule and as far as I can tell it's entirely a gray area in the US now; the NHTSA require a "remedy" for recalls but nobody seems to have pushed back to determine whether OTA is truly a remedy. The traditional autos all offer dealerships as a backup option, but Tesla and Rivian have several recalls with only OTA remedies already. This seems sketchy.
> I wonder what happens if you disable the e-SIM (in the US) and then a safety recall appears via software update - do dealers have any way to update control modules besides OTA?
I would assume so. Even on older cars, service techs can typically manually push firmware updates over the OBD-II / J2534 port. Rivian's OBD-II port actually hides an Ethernet signal inside of it - so the interface is certainly there.
Fun fact: You can buy an Ethernet adapter directly from Rivian here to connect to the car's internal network: https://rivianservicetools.com/Catalog/Product/TSN00535-300-...
> Rivian's OBD-II port actually hides an Ethernet signal inside of it - so the interface is certainly there.
Nice. This is really normal now, for what it's worth - all of the European makes have moved this direction as well (DoIP over ENET). There's shockingly little documentation about Rivian online, though, probably because emissions regulation doesn't mandate it.
Yeah, I got a cable to update my 2017 BMW's infotainment system, and it's OBD-II to RJ45. Doesn't seem to be too new of a thing.
Yep! Depending on the vintage, BMWs have "real" DoIP or a BMW-ized version (sort of like how KWP2000 was the predecessor to UDS). For emissions modules, they still also have to support updates over UDS as well as ENET, though, for the above mentioned J2534 reasons (Ethernet wasn't added to J2534 until 2022).
> do dealers have any way to update control modules besides OTA?
I get some updates OTA, but the dealer has to install some others, and when I took it there they updated it with a USB stick.
Nice, thanks for the reply; this is surprisingly undocumented online. Presumably if they got cornered and the module under repair was updatable via this mechanism they'd have some ability to use that system, then. I wonder how charitable they will be about using it for non-recall updates for customers who have solely chosen to opt out.
Rivian are probably the only major manufacturer I've never had a chance to look at in any RE capacity and I'm getting more curious by the second. The reaction their vehicles had to the infamous bricked-infotainment update actually represented a pretty good adherence to safety guidelines (the drivetrain as well as the speedometer and warning lights on the cluster still worked in a degraded format even when the infotainment was bricked) IMO, so they do seem to apply a reasonable degree of care.
WiFi. Flip it on for an update, then leave it off.
> do dealers have any way to update control modules besides OTA?
Yes.
WiFi is, err, still OTA, although it does answer the eSIM question. I assume the truly concerned/paranoid wouldn't want to connect to WiFi either, since presumably telemetry / tracking metadata could be uploaded at that time too.
I wonder what happens if you disable the e-SIM (in the US) and then a safety recall appears via software update - do dealers have any way to update control modules besides OTA?
Yes.
You get a letter in the mail asking you to take your car to the dealer so they can install the update.
Been there. Done this.
Interesting, I reviewed every Rivian software update recall letter I could find before I posted this and they all said something like "If you have not already updated to software version 2025.18.30 or later, please do so to remedy this issue at no cost to you," with no mention of the dealership as a remedy - for example, https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2025/RCLRPT-25V585-0759.pdf . This is different from other manufacturers who explicitly mention the dealer, like this Ford EV recall: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2025/RCAK-25V863-3736.pdf
Related: Mozilla did a review of different cars for privacy:
(https://www.mozillafoundation.org/en/privacynotincluded/arti...)
>Nissan earned its second-to-last spot for collecting some of the creepiest categories of data we have ever seen. [Their privacy policy] includes your “sexual activity.” Not to be out done, Kia also mentions they can collect information about your “sex life” in their privacy policy. Oh, and six car companies say they can collect your “genetic information” or “genetic characteristics.”
Ignoring the fact that it's absolutely unhinged and bonkers to include that in the first place, I don't even understand how they could possibly ever get any information about that. Are they using LLMs to generate these policies without review? Or are there really lawyers out there who thought this was pertinent and important to include?
Any car that can record audio in the cabin could have information about your sexual activity. Could also argue it based on location data.
Some laws require discussing very specific lists of categories of information they might have. I'm guessing this is a completionist CYA lawyer accounting for this.
I was thinking all it takes is an IMU to tell if the car is a rockin'
Or malicious compliance by a true friend to privacy.
They’re just including everything to be clear that you have no privacy in this agreement, so they don’t have to think about it too much when they realize there’s something more they can collect.
Well, there's the old cliche of someone being conceived in the back seat of their grandparent's Chevy... so a little extra DSP analysis with the seat occupancy sensors? :-)
Legal wiggle room in case the sleepy eyes cam catches some action? Disclaimer: no idea how the tired driver sensors work.
I wonder how Slate ( https://slate.auto ) will rate when production begins? I suspect poorly as it's a Bezos property.
Reminds me of Zed's setting { "disable_ai": true } [1]
Glad it's an option be it for regulatory compliance, security, privacy, or any combination of the three.
[1]: https://zed.dev/blog/disable-ai-features
Firefox also has a setting like this, although I think it's even nicer in that it makes everything (current and future) AI default to opt-out, but still lets you opt in to specific use cases if you want.
Zed is one of the best editors I've ever seen, I always worried the mention of AI would put off people who are missing out on a truly amazing editor.
It did, verifiably here. Based on their own marketing, I thought it an alternative to Codex, not Codium.
Knowledge of this setting has shifted my perspective considerably.
edit: not enough to ditch Sublime, however.
The thing that really puts people off about Zed is "VC-funded"
Hacker News is not for you then.
There is a healthy dose of VC skepticism here. HN is here for that.
I think they meant that ycombinator is literally a VC shop
So if being VC funded puts you off an editor, being VC funded may also put you off ycombinator.com
Yes, indeed it does. I didn't feel this way until I worked for a YC-backed startup tho. I mean, YC is the first to admit that not everything needs to be VC funded and some things just aren't good fit for that funding model. I think a code editor is one of them.
> Yes, indeed it does. I didn't feel this way until I worked for a YC-backed startup tho.
Same, same.
Nothing made me skeptical about the tech industry like working for a VC-backed startup. Ugh.
It's rare to find so many grazing in their natural habit, so it's a great place for vc-watching.
I remember yanking out the onstar unit in my 2015 silverado to physically disconnect the cell antenna. This was (is?) the only practical way to disable cellular in that vehicle.
Kudos to Rivian for making this a supported user privacy feature.
As someone who got into a rollover accident which ended with my car upside down on a freeway, hearing only the onstar person talking to me while half conscious, this is sad.
I do distinctely remember strongly disliking the user agreement I signed for the "internet connected" features of the car when I bought it. 100% rubbed me the wrong way and I couldn't' find a way to opt out, and I wasn't so motivated to physically remove it from my new car. Thankfully.
Shouldn't have to trade privacy for safety.
> As someone who got into a rollover accident which ended with my car upside down on a freeway, hearing only the onstar person talking to me while half conscious, this is sad.
My phone does this now. Most phones do it now.
Maybe in theory, but I trust Apple to detect a crash correctly about as far as I can throw my iPhone without breaking its glass back or front.
This is the company whose flagship voice assistant, in 2026, can’t tell the intended recipient in a sentence like “Text Bob Mary signed the deal.” And if my phone happens to be thrown into the back of the car by the crash, I doubt anyone will be able to hear me.
Not to mention that OnStar has operators who talk to first responders. the cell phone thing will just call 911 and hope for the best.
I pay for OnStar, and think it’s worth it.
Lol, same thing for Android, too. It has full access to my contact list, but if I tell it to "Call Stephan Beier" I see the transcript for "Beyer" and then it fails. That sounds the same in German, now what shall I do. Stupid thing.
sorry, I didn't find someone named "bob mary" in your contacts list
"I found this on the web. Check it out."
My phone does this now. Most phones do it now.
Only if it hasn't been crushed, damaged, or otherwise flung out of the vehicle that crashed so violently that it's actually upside down, as noted in the original comment.
Stress test your mounts!
>Shouldn't have to trade privacy for safety.
You shouldn't have to, and yet...
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2026/01/...
> Kudos to Rivian for making this a supported user privacy feature.
Same. This is the first thing that I've ever read that makes me think I might be willing to buy a modern vehicle.
They've fixed that in later models, disconnecting the module disables the dash now.
But don't worry, the FTC is out to protect you. Their settlement with GM says that can only sell your name attached to zipcode resolution location data and only sell your precise location trace attached to an opaque ID rather than your name.
Disabling internet connectivity disables lane keeping assistance. I wonder if this is a dark pattern to punish users who opt out or because they feel they need reports of crashes ahead to do it safely.
I believe the "advanced" LKAS on Rivian only works on highways and relies on an "up to date" geofencing database, so that's the first-order technical reason. And I'm sure they don't exactly prioritize fixing or altering that behavior for the other reason.
This is a safety issue. I don’t think there is a “fix” for offline lane assistance that they are sitting on do avoid people from disabling telemetry
The gen 1 system uses cameras primarily. It’s not awesome lidar or AI. It needs up to date road information.
I’ve been driving down I-5, a major interstate and had it turn off on me, presumably because I hit a dead spot, as conditions were fine and I5 is one of the most popular routes there is.
I’m fine with all of this. I prefer that it hand back control to me rather than make me another statistic like Tesla’s system.
Sure; I think that's a reasonable take too. I have no idea what their TTL requirements are or how frequently they update the ADAS database; if they're on the order of real-time, this seems like a complete technical constraint, if they're on a longer time horizon they might be able to offer manual offline databases.
I'm very curious at what level the restrictions operate. With every other manufacturer I've looked at, they're extremely coarse-grained; it's more like "is there a known long-time-horizon hazard in this area that is known to impair the system" than a "we mapped every lane and you need a database." I wonder if your I5 issue was a weeks or months-old construction area, for example. I haven't looked at Rivian much, though, and it could be totally different or extremely fine grained, there's no reason to suggest otherwise either.
how would that even work? even if you could generate accurate maps of lane markings, non-differential gps in not accurate enough
I think it's a coarse-grained "this highway has been deemed non-anomalous enough to allow the vision systems to engage," not a fine-grained "we mapped every lane marking."
I understand how it could disable some features. Hyundai has a GPS-assisted database of highways that are approved for enhanced driver assist (HDA2).
I assume by lane keeping assistance they mean the more basic camera based system to warn and potentially correct drivers if they drift over a line without indicating. It makes sense it could also be geofenced to limit it to highways.
Toyota advanced LKA (called Traffic Jam Assist) requires mapping subscription to be active as well
Lane keeping assistance is optional on any vehicle. I don't believe there is any current production in which you can't opt out of lane keeping assistance?
Isn't it mandatory in the EU if the car supports it? Mandatory as in it's opt-out and will re-enable itself every time you turn on the car.
> will re-enable itself every time you turn on the car
I think that's only for the speed limit alarms. Wouldn't have that if people would stick to limits, I guess...
So you disable both internet and the most annoying feature after touchscreens and start stop. Double win.
If you need lane keeping assistance you should just accept you need internet connectivity at all times like wtf cars didn’t always have that just drive straight.
You have a lot of trouble driving your car inside the lanes?
They need to keep lane availability up to date - lanes get closed for repair or realignment sometimes and it’d suck to rear-end an 18 ton grader because you don’t have current DOT info…
Anybody relying on lane-keeping assistance to prevent from slamming into the back of big yellow construction vehicle is doing it wrong, and we should be thankful they didn't hit something else with more victims.
My assumption would be that lane keeping would be about staying in the lines ahead of you, not knowing which lanes are available on the route. Available lanes can change in real-time due to all kinds of reasons.
I think the term has been used for various capabilities over the years.
My friend's 10-year-old Toyota will chirp annoyingly if you drift over a lane line but that's all it does. It doesn't have any ability to steer the car back into the center of the lane. Is that "lane keeping"?
No, that's "lane departure warning"
I didn't know that. I assumed it was sensor-based. How up-to-date can that really be? That sounds pretty crazy.
It does say lane "keeping" not lane "changing". I assume it's the safety feature to remain in the lane.
I've seen lanes on highways that abruptly end with zero markings or signs - the concrete barriers just force you into the other lane just as you realize what's going on.
Why cant users disable connectivity elsewhere other thsn canada? People are supposed to call their car dealer each time after car update before turning it off again? Seems to be a cheap pr stunt to portray canadian regulation in attempt to shed good light on rivian
Amusingly, my Cupra Born has all its connectivity disabled... because Cupra Australia just didn't want to bring it to this country. Not a bad thing really, aside from the annoying red notification dot telling me I have no signal!
Why the hell would disabling internet connectivity disable lane-keeping assist? O.o
Very tangentially related- Does Rivian put software licenses in the OS UI somewhere? Couldn't find it when I was playing with my friend's car. Seems odd if it is android-based...
It would have been much better to be able to disable telemetry without losing basic functionality such as navigation and safety updates. Having to choose between being spied on and having no connectivity at all is a false dichotomy.
Any connectivity at all is telemetry. The connection itself reveals where you are. Navigation reveals where you are down to the meter, along with everywhere you've been, where you're going, speed, etc. What else are you worried about if not that?
It reveals where you are to the cell towers, but not to the car company. My phone already reveals where I am based on its cellular connectivity, so I'm not too worried about that.
what telemetry are you worried about if you're already sharing your exact location at all times (navigation)
I’m not OP but I just want to point out that navigation doesn’t need to mean I am always sharing telemetry with multiple third parties
I have a garmin watch which is great for overland hiking, multiple day expeditions etc
I download the maps and the watch has GPS to plot where I am on that map. My watch doesn’t have an eSIM at all.
Rivian is an adventure brand so if they wanted to design a maps system like that, where I am not continually downloading tiles from open maps or google and sending my location to them and others, they probably could
I just don’t think they have space for those types of features most people don’t care about while they are trying to compete in a rough industry and deliver new vehicles
Why would you be sharing that? There's no reason why the navigation system needs to constantly tell a remote system where you are. Navigation systems don't even need an Internet connection for basic routing.
>For non-Canadian vehicles, you may reach out to Rivian Service to request that we disable the eSIM card in the vehicle through a service appointment.
Why is that? I really don't want to bring it to the shop to turn off the radio. In Canada it's a toggle in the settings. Is there Canadian legislation mandating this or something?
Yes, no credit if I have to ask someone to turn it off for me. It could obviously be a toggle here in the US.
Show me where I can rip out the antennae/modem, otherwise you’re all talk.
Exactly. Any software toggle can un-toggle itself.
> limit or disable certain functionality in the vehicle (e.g., navigation, lane keeping assistance (…)
Curious why lane keeping assistance would need to communicate externally. Isn’t all this processed in the vehicle?
It was expensive but every day I am happy with my Rivian purchase. Great to have a vehicle where the actual users are obviously thought of (contra for instance the cybertruck where some variety 'cool factor' was obviously prioritized, resulting in finger crunching hoods and such).
Fisker launched that feature over a year ago
This is the sign of a company who listens to their customers. They have received feedback saying some people don't want a connected car, so they make it an option.
Or trying to get ahead of competition such as slate.
I’m weighing whether I should get a Slate or R2 next. Yet, somehow, I feel like these don’t compete directly much. Perhaps I’m wrong. My friends with R1s would never consider a Slate. Maybe the R2 is more of a match even at twice the price.
I just want to bring my own electronics.
If you mean the self-driving part specifically, apparently Comma AI already does this: https://comma.ai/
Annoying how it doesn't disable the cell modem from registering to a network (in Canada). So no it doesn't provide any tracking protection. Or at least that is how it sounds.
If they can make it a toggle for Canadian vehicles, why do you need to schedule an appointment in the US? Obviously it's so they can try to talk you out of it, but c'mon, just give everyone a toggle.
> For non-Canadian vehicles, you may reach out to Rivian Service to request that we disable the eSIM card in the vehicle through a service appointment.
I certainly appreciate that disabling network connectivity is even possible, but a bit scummy that non-Canadians have to make an in-person service appointment.
Is there some Canadian law at play here that requires they permit Canadians to disable this easily from the GUI? Would love legislation like that in the US.
This is, in a word, crap. We give you a fake option to turn off data and make it egregious by killing features that shouldn't need it like lane keeping. How about instead a real privacy option that actually is true? 'Block identification'. 'disable sim when not in use'. 'no server side storage'. And, yes, do allow turning off all data and NOT from a service call, just a simple option. Also don't block features that clearly don't need that like lane following.
Having ranted a bit though, in the world of car companies an official policy on how to turn data off is amazing. The bar is so low right now that it is crazy to think this terrible implementation riddled with dark patterns is a 'win'. These companies need to be shut down.
My understanding is that Rivian’s lane keeping (and other features like it) are only possible because of driving data collected to train their models.
It’s not such a stretch to believe that there’s some aspect of this that is specific to a driver or to a vehicle, and so requires that they collect your data. Even if this is not accurate, I can see a business making the decision that, given they need more and more data to improve the model, they would not allow customers to opt-out of that training cohort and still use the feature. Incentives etc.
Directionally though, I am with you on auto telematics data collection; I am not sure you can even buy a new car in the US that doesn’t ship with tracking, and many manufacturers (like the one who makes my car) don’t allow opt out at all. Fcking Stellantis
I wish Tesla did this.
I’m still very happy with my 2024 4Runner, one of the purchases I never regretted a single bit, I did have a Sony head unit installed for a larger screen with support of wireless Apple CarPlay, and that’s enough tech in a car for me. My wife keeps complaining about its lack of auto lane keeping but I’m ok with it bc I enjoy driving it.
How about also adding Android Auto as well? Oh no, it'd take away their "control the user experience" power-tripping.
So why would you prefer goggle's "control the user experience" power-tripping, to rivian's?
I'd much rather side with the company that was willing to allow the user to disable net connectivity...
I would prefer to have the choice.
Ideally, they would support Android Auto and Apple CarPlay. There are a few big reasons this is preferable.
- I already pay for internet on my phone, I'm not interested in paying for another cellular service just to get maps and music streaming on the screen in my car. GM ditched CarPlay specifically to push customers to their subscription service. I know some electric automakers are offering it "for free", but I do not trust that it will remain free, and that's important when spending tens of thousands of dollars on something you plan to use for a decade+.
- Third party app ecosystem means I can use the maps and music player I want, and not just what my car manufacturer decides is worth including.
- Auto manufacturers suck at software. I've yet to use an infotainment system that wasn't a stark downgrade from CarPlay.
Basically, my car shouldn't need an internet connection because my smartphone already does all the same things but better.
Your phone has an airplane mode.
Also, I can replace or upgrade my phone a hell of a lot more easily than I can replace my car.
My phone runs GrapheneOS and does not use any Google service. But it supports Android Auto. Allowing it would dramatically improve the experience.
Instead, Rivian adds a purely performative toggle that makes the car's navigation largely useless and doesn't provide a good alternative.
This is insufficient. There needs to be a physical button that either physically disconnects every antenna and/or de-powers the transceiver.
They could store data and then dump it later when the vehicle is being serviced. Unless their privacy states otherwise, assume data is being gathered and sold. Other car manufactures have been caught selling travel data. It's not even that paranoid. Google has been fined in the past for secretly collecting location data in Android when offline and then relaying it back to HQ once the phone got a signal.
Kinda rich coming from someone who doesn't even have a valid SSL cert on the website in their profile bio...
What does that have to do with anything?
He expects an absurd level of effort from other people to protect privacy when he isn't doing the bare minimum for what he actually does himself.
> a physical button
New definition of "absurd" just dropped...
This is massively simplifying what is needed for a single button to physically (not just digitally) disconnect multiple components.
didn't you get the memo? If you don't set up proper SSL certificates you can't give opinions on the features you want in a car...
>It sounds to me like this is more akin to the Cellular Data toggle on Android as opposed to Aeroplane mode. If that is the case, it will presumably not prevent your vehicle from connecting to cellular base stations, which means your vehicle will still be trackable by network operators.
(https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/rivian-allows-you-to-dis...)
> disable the eSIM card in the vehicle
Disabling a SIM card almost certainly means no connection to the network.
Your phone still connects to the cellular network without a sim card or eSim. It is mandated by law in the US. The only way to prevent your phone from connecting/pinging/being pinged by the cellular network is to put it in airplane mode.
(https://grapheneos.org/faq#cellular-tracking)
Whether there is a sim enabled/disabled/installed is irrelevant. The question is whether this feature is Airplain Mode or if it is just disable cellular.
Ah, I thought you were likening it to the disable cellular data button which does not disconnect the cellular network.
Instead you are referring to the fact that the radio may remain on even if it has no active SIM card.
Given that the primary concern of connected vehicles is changes over time and manufacturer control, I don’t see any reason to make that distinction for most people.