Vibe Coding (and LLMs) did not create undisciplined engineering organizations or engineers. They exposed and accelerated them.
Plenty of engineers have loose (or no!) standards and practices over how they write coee. Similarly, plenty of engineering teams have weak and loose standards over how code gets pushed to production. This concept isn't new, it's just a lot easier for individuals and teams who have never really adhered to any sort of standards in their SDLC to produce a lot more code and flesh out ideas.
Bad engineers continue being bad, good engineers continue being good.
I personally don’t know any colleagues who were good engineers just because they wrote code faster. The best engineers I know were ones who drew on experience and careful consideration and shared critical insights with their team that steered the direction of the system positively.
> Claude, engineer a system for me, but do it good. Thanks!
> I personally don’t know any colleagues who were good engineers just because they wrote code faster
Same, if anything, the opposite seems to be true, the ones that I'd call "good engineers" were slower, less panicked when production was down and could reason their way (slowly) through pretty much anything thrown at them.
Opposite experience, I've sit next to developers who are trying their fastest to restore production and then making more mistakes to make it even worse, or developers who rush through the first implementation idea they had for a feature, missing to consider so many things and so on.
Vibe coded apps with barely no tests, invariants, etc. No wonder it turns into spaghetti. You can always refactor code, force agents to write small modular pieces and files. Good engineering is good engineering whether an agent or human wrote the code. Take time to force agents to refactor, explore choices. Humans must at least understand and drive architecture at this point still. Agents can help and do recon amazingly and provide suggestions.
> If you can go from producing 200 lines of code a day to 2,000 lines of code a day, what else breaks? The entire software development lifecycle was, it turns out, designed around the idea that it takes a day to produce a few hundred lines of code. And now it doesn’t.
It is so embarrassing that LOC is being used as a metric for engineering output.
LOC is useful here not because it's a metric for output but because it's a metric for _understandability_. Reviewing 200 lines is a very different workload than reviewing 2000.
I have worked with code where 1000s of lines are very straightforward and linear.
I’ve worked on code where 100 lines is crucial and very domain specific. It can be exceptionally clean and well-commented and it still takes days to unpack.
The skills and effort required to review and understand those situations are quite different.
One is like distance driving a boring highway in the Midwest: don’t get drowsy, avoid veering into the indistinguishable corn fields, and you’ll get there. The other is like navigating a narrow mountain road in a thunderstorm: you’re 100% engaged and you might still tumble or get hit by lightning.
That's assuming the 200 lines are logical and consistent. Many of my most frustrating LLM bugs are caused by things that look right and are even supported by lengthy comments explaining their (incorrect) reasoning.
The point is that LOC is never a good metric for any aspect of determining the quality of code or the coder because it ignores the nuance of reality. It's impossible to generalize because the code can be either deceptively dense or unnecessarily bloated. The only thing that actually matters is whether the business objective is achieved without any unintended side effects.
I experimented with vibe coding (not looking at the code myself) and it produced around 10k LOC even after refactors etc.
I rewrote the same program using my own brain and just using ChatGPT as google and autocomplete (my normal workflow), I produced the same thing in 1500 LOC.
The effort difference was not that significant either tbh although my hand coded approach probably benefited from designing the vibe coded one so I had already though of what I wanted to build.
Sounds like a great oppurtunity to understand your own development process, and codify it in such detail that the agent can replicate how you work and end up with less code but doing the same.
My experience was the same as you when I started using agents for development about a year ago. Every time I noticed it did something less-than-optimal or just "not up to my standards", I'd hash out exactly what those things meant for me, added it to my reusable AGENTS.md and the code the agent outputs today is fairly close to what I "naturally" write.
Because not everyone is just out after earning the most money, some people also want to enjoy the workplace where they work. Personally, what the quality of the codebase and infrastructure is in matters a lot for how much you enjoy working in it, and I'd much rather work in a codebase I enjoy and earn half, than a codebase made by just jerking out as many LOC as possible and earn double.
Although this requires you to take pride in your profession and what you do.
Is it? The whole point of the article is that the rate of output for writing code has surpassed the rate at which it can be reviewed by humans. LOC as an input for software review makes a lot of sense, since you literally need to read each line.
Do you reject all stats that treat the number of people involved (eg. 2 million pepole protested X) as "embarrassing" ... because they lump incredibly varied people together and pretend they're equal?
I read somewhere that measuring software engineering output by LoC is like measuring aerospace engineering by pounds added to the plane and I thought that was an apt comparison.
Totally. I thought Simon was wiser than this; even he couldn't resist getting swept up by breathless hype. The moment you start typing "LOC as a metric", alarm bells should go off in your head.
People in the future are going to wonder what the hell we were thinking, when 30 years down the line everything is a hot mess of billions of lines of code generated by LLMs that no human has read almost any of it and is no longer possible for anyone to maintain neither with nor without LLMs. And the LLM generated garbage will have drowned out all of the good quality code that ever existed and no one will be able to find even human generated code anymore on the internet.
Makes me want to just give up programming forever and never use a computer again.
By then, the fix will be easy. Fire up the latest LLM, point it at your codebase and tell it "rewrite this from scratch. do it well. fix the architecture mistakes"
We can do this today too (but definitely hopefully future LLMs make better architectural decisions). With Claude, I've been working on an application for the last 2 months. I didn't have a great vision of what I wanted when I started but I didn't want that to slow me down. The architecture is terrible - Claude separated some functionality into different classes but did a bad job at it and created a big ball of mud. Now that I finally have my vision locked down and implemented (albeit poorly), it'd be a great time to throw it away and start over. It'd be interesting to see the result and see how long it takes.
It won't be an LLM that does it, the entire feature of an LLM is it produces generalizable reasonably "correct" text in response to a context.
The system that makes it have an opinion about good vs bad architecture or engineering sensibilities will be something on top of the transformer and probably something more deterministic than a prompt.
The only people who are going to put in the time, are people who care enough to. The problem is you have people who didn’t care before who were equipped with a garden hose. Now that they have a fully pressurized fire hose they can make more of a mess faster.
Like with a lot of things in this space, it depends where you invest your effort. If you care about quality design and good code, you can definitely get there - but that doesn't happen by default.
With the right investment, we could certainly have tooling that creates and maintains very good designs out of the box. My bet is that we'll continue chasing quick and hacky code, mostly because that's the majority of the code that it was trained on, and because the majority of people seem to be interested in a quick result vs a long-term maintainable one.
If you like sci-fi takes on software systems, check out Vernor Vinge "A Fire upon the deep" and sequels. I recall ship systems software is something like all the code humanity has ever written, plus centuries of LLM churn. One of the protagonists is a space faring software developer particularly good with legacy code.
We are used to thinking about software like in the article, a program that runs deterministically in an OS. Where we are headed might be more like where the LLM or AI system is the OS, and accomplishes things we want through a combination of pre-written legacy software, and perhaps able to accomplish new things on the fly.
Interesting, I kinda do this. Sometimes when an LLM solves a problem for me, I have it write code so that I can reuse that exact same approach deterministically(and I line by line check it). Now I have about a dozen CLI commands that the LLM can use and I'm reasonably (although not 100%) sure I'll get an expected outcome. Really helpful with debugging via steam pipe and connecting to read replicas.
Hello from assembly programmers to present day javascript folks. Joke aside, I sometimes think how VS Code is written in such layers and layers of code - ~200mb of minified code - Java based IDEs were worser with almost 1GB of code (libs/dependencies). And VS Code did beat native editors (Sublime) of its time to dominate now - may be because of the business model (open & free vs freemium). But it does the job quite well IMO. And it enabled swarms of startups to go to market including billion $ wrappers - including Cursor, Antigravity and almost all UI coding agents. I remember backend developers (Java/C++ type) looking down upon Javascript developers as if we are from an inferior planet or something.
How many of us remember that VSCode is actually a browser wrapped inside a native frame?
VS Code has two things that worked well for it. Web Tech and Money. Web tech makes it easy to write plugins (you already know the stack vs learning python for sublime). And I wonder how much traction it would get if not Microsoft paying devs to wrangle Electron in a usable shape.
There is nothing in the post to support the statement. An interesting personal confession, but it does not establish that vibe coding and agentic engineering are converging as a general phenomenon.
As a piece of meat, I look forward to charge rates of $10,000 an hour, to fix code out the vibe code generation.
By then AI would be good enough to clean them all up....like I dont get these dooming scenarios they always assume that we are going to be stuck with LLMs and there wont be anything new coming.
> People in the future are going to wonder what the hell we were thinking, when 30 years down the line everything is a hot mess of billions of lines of code generated by LLMs that no human has read
--
It's just as likely that people will be surprised that we used to have billions of lines of human generated code, that no LLM ever approved.
I don't think that's how money works. Enough people have poured enough money into this thing that the actual, measurable results/efficacy/ROI are of secondary importance (to put it mildly). At this point AI adoption is (at least sold as) a fait accompli.
This is wishful thinking. The force of the market is "number go up". Quality increasingly has less and less of a role in the equation. You will eat your slop, and you will like it. It will be the only choice you have.
But the quality of code was already very bad due to market forces. Most code at large companies is notoriously poor despite the talent density, because the incentives are not there to tackle tech debt or improve code quality.
With such a low baseline, there is an optimistic perspective that LLMs could improve the situation. LLMs can produce excellent code when prompted or reviewed well. Unlike human employees, the model does not worry about getting a 'partially meets expectations' rating or avoid the drudgery of cleaning up other people's code.
The model is optimized in a different way to "partially meet expectations". Sycophancy coupled with only really "knowing" what it has been trained on assure a different kind of mediocrity.
The same incentives that discourage good code in pre-AI times are still dominating now. You will be pushed to ship sub-par products in the future, just like you were in the past.
AI certainly has the potential to make the underlying code/design a lot cleaner. We will also be working with dramatically more code, at a much higher rate of change. That alone will be a big challenge to keep sustainable.
The ones making the decision to under-invest on design are either are unaware of the real costs, or are aware and are deliberately choosing that path - that's not new, and I don't expect it to change.
I agree generally but there are periods where creative people show up and a whole slew of existing firms go bust/shrink due to one’s ability to envision a path toward creative destruction.
The difference between writing assembly code and Ruby code is much smaller than the difference between programming and vibe coding.
Also, companies are pressuring employees towards adoption in novel ways. There was no such industry-wide pressure by employers in the 90s, 2000s or 2010s for engineers to use a specific tech.
Or, it could be like asbestos and the immediate benefits are just too appealing to listen to arguments of skeptical naysayers about some vaguely defined problems that are decades away, if they even happen.
I use AI tools daily (because they feel like they're helping me)
but it's not exactly hard to imagine scenarios where an explosion of slop piling up plus harm to learning by outsourcing all thinking results in systemic damage that actually slows the pace of technological progress given enough time.
History of new technologies tend to average into a positive trend over a long enough time scale but that doesn't mean there aren't individual ups and downs. Including WTF moments looking back at what now seems like baffling decision-making with benefit of hindsight.
Some of us are already experiencing that. For example I handed off an initial version of something some months ago, and the AI-generated stuff they came up with was a huge buggy mess of spaghetti code neither of us understood. Months later we've detangled it, cutting it down to a third the size, making it far simpler to understand, and fixing several bugs in the process (one was even by accident, we'd made note of it, then later when we went to fix it, it was already fixed).
If it is, the fall out will be way worse than if AI ends up living up to (reasonable) expectations.
If it doesn’t, we are going to see over a trillion dollars of capital leave the tech sector, which I think will have worse impacts on the livelihood of tech workers than if AI ends up panning out.
This is something the naysayers need to grapple with. We’ve crossed a line where this tech needs to work simply because of the amount of money depending on that fact.
The asbestos hypothetical is a bit different than the "bubble popping" economic crisis scenario though. In this world, AI would just continue being adopted and shoved into every nook and cranny into which it can be made to fit, with valuations only getting bigger and bigger.
The damage would come much later, well beyond the point where it could be simply pulled out and replaced without spending massive amounts of money and would also basically necessitate training an entire new generation of engineers.
Then the AI giants would start appearing vulnerable like cigarette companies in the 90s while an AI Superfund and interstate class action are being planned but Sam Altman would already be a centitrillionaire at that point so it would be someone else's problem.
Perhaps I've missed a few weeks worth of progress, but I don't think that AIs have become more trustworthy, the errors are just more subtle.
If the code doesn't compile, that's easy to spot. If the code compiles but doesn't work, that's still somewhat easy to spot.
If the code compiles and works, but it does the wrong thing in some edge case, or has a security vulnerability, or introduces tech debt or dubious architectural decisions, that's harder to spot but doesn't reduce the review burden whatsoever.
If anything, "truthy" code is more mentally taxing to review than just obviously bad code.
I know there are good uses of LLMs out there. I do. But.
The current fever pitch mandates from above seem to want it applied liberally, and pushing back against that is so discouraging and often career-limiting as to wear the fabric of one's psyche threadbare. With all the obvious problems being pointed out to people, there are just as many workarounds; and these workarounds, as is often revealed shortly thereafter, have their own problems, which beget new solutions, ad infinitum.
At some point it genuinely seems like all this work is for the sake of the machine itself. I suppose that is true: The real goal has become obscured at so many firms today, that all that remains is the LLM. Are the people betting the farm and helping implement the visions of those who have done so guaranteed a soft exit to cushion them from the consequences, or is rationality really being discarded altogether?
Sure, sound engineering principles can help work around these problems, but what efficiency is truly gained, in terms of cognitive load, developer time, money, or finite resources? Or were those ever an earnest concern?
This has generally been the case, though. As mentioned in the post, "You want solutions that are proven to work before you take a risk on them" remains true and will be place where the edges are found.
Have you noticed that the coding agents get really close to the solution on the first one shot and then require tons of work to get that last 10% or 5%?
If we shift the paradigm of how we approach a coding problem, the coding agents can close that gap. Ten years ago every 10 or 15 minutes I would stop coding and start refactoring, testing, and analyzing making sure everything is perfect before proceeding because a bug will corrupt any downstream code. The coding agents don't and can't do this. They keep that bug or malformed architecture as they continue.
The instinct is to get the coding agents to stop at these points. However, that is impossible for several reasons. Instead, because it is very cheap, we should find the first place the agent made a mistake and update the prompt. Instead of fixing it, delete all the code (because it is very cheap), and run from the top. Continue this iteration process until the prompt yields the perfect code.
Ah, but you say, that is a lot of work done by a human! That is the whole point. The humans are still needed. The process using the tool like this yields 10x speed at writing code.
This was often true when writing code manually to be fair.
You could get to "something that works" rather fast but it took a long time to 1) evaluate other options (maybe before, maybe after), 2) refine it, 3) test it and build confidence around it.
I think your point stands but no one really knows where. The next year or so is going to be everyone trying to figure that out (this is also why we hear a lot of "we need to reinvent github")
When I hire fresh out of college… I can see them coming in and not having the slightest comprehension of the difference of the things that they did in school to get a grade and never touch it again versus a product that is supposed to exist and work for 10+ years.
I tend to get something working and refactor my way out, which does work and you can use a coding agent to do it, but it takes time. Maybe starting over would have been better, but I didn’t know what I wanted the architecture to look like at the beginning.
The problem of life in general is the last 5-10% is always the hardest. And it makes no economic sense in many cases to invest in trying to make that last part mechanised.
I believe the llm providers went with the wrong approach from the off - the focus should’ve been on complementing labour not displacement. And I believe they have learned an expensive lesson along the way.
Claude often does things in more detail, and even better, than I would, in the first pass. But I don't understand how anybody stands comments generated by an LLM?
It's seriously the thing that worries (and bothers) me the most. I almost never let unedited LLM comments pass. At a minimum.
Most of the time, I use my own vibe-coded tool to run multiple GitHub-PR-review-style reviews, and send them off to the agent to make the code look and work fine.
It also struggles with doing things the idiomatic way for huge codebases, or sometimes it's just plain wrong about why something works, even if it gets it right.
And I say this despite the fact that I don't really write much code by hand anymore, only the important ones (if even!) or the interesting ones.
Also, don't even get me started on AI-generated READMEs... I use Claude to refine my Markdown or automatically handle dark/light-mode, but I try to write everything myself, because I can't stand what it generates.
I find that the best thing about generating documentation with LLM's is that it gets me angry enough to rewrite it correctly.
"Ugh, no! Why would you say it like that? That's not even how it works! Now, I need to write a full paragraph instead of a short snippet to make sure that no future agents get confused in the same way."
The current state of the technology is that you must read at least some of the code, but everyone keeps shipping tools that are focussed on churning out more and more stuff without giving you any affordances to really understand the output.
Claude Code in particular seems really uninterested in this aspect of the problem and I've stopped using entirely because of this.
This is a timely observation and feels right to me. I needed to get a relatively simple batch download -> transform -> api endpoint stood up. I wrote a fairly detailed prompt but left a lot of implementation details out, including data sources.
Opus 4.7 built it about 90% the same way I would, but had way more convenience methods and step-validations included.
It's great, and really frees me
up to think about harder problems.
> The thing that really helps me is thinking back to when I’ve worked at larger organizations where I’ve been an engineering manager. Other teams are building software that my team depends on.
> If another team hands over something and says, “hey, this is the image resize service, here’s how to use it to resize your images”... I’m not going to go and read every line of code that they wrote.
The distance of accountability of the output from its producer is an important metric. Who will be held accountable for which output: that's important to maintain and not feel the "guilt".
So, organizations would need to focus on better and more granular building incentives and punishment mechanisms for large-scale software projects.
I think this is what people mean when they say LLMs are a higher level abstraction. We still need to consider edge cases and have tests. We still to sweat the architecture and understand how the pieces fit together and have a mental map of the codebase. But within each bottom node of that architecture we don't sweat the details. Anything obvious gets caught right away. Most subtle/interaction-based issues occur at the architecture level. Anything that bypasses those filters is a weird bug that is no worse or different from a normal bug fixes - an edge case that was hit in a real world scenario that gets flagged by a user or a logged as an error.
There are certain codebases and pieces of code we definitely want every line to be reasoned and understood. But like his API endpoint example, no reason to fuss with the boilerplate.
This has definitely been my shift over the past few months, and the advantage is I can spend much more time and energy on getting the code architecture just right, which automatically prevents most of the subtle bugs that has people wringing their hands. The new bar is architecting code to be defined as well as an API endpoint->service structure so you can rely on LLMs to paint by numbers for new features/logic.
There are techniques for improving our confidence in our software: unit testing, integration testing, fuzz testing, property-based testing, static analysis, model checking, theorem proving, formal methods, etc. The LLM is not only a tool for generating lines of code. It can also generate lines of testing. The goal is that the tests are easier to audit by the humans than the code.
I think I'm just too opinionated to go there. If I see something that works fine, but isn't the way I'd do it, it doesn't matter if a human or an LLM wrote it I'm still in there making it match my vision.
I concur, and I think that is one of the most difficult aspects of reviewing another's code. It's difficult for me to sometimes differentiate between what is acceptable vs. what I would have done. I have to be very conscious to not impose my ideals.
So you are going to waste everyone's time getting another developer to write code the way you want? This resonates with me because at my company I get this all the time. At that point, you might as well close my PR and do it yourself, whatever way you want. I really like the advice from the book 0 2 1, to assign different areas of responsibility to people, so that there is no conflict.
Vibe coding is just coding now. Writing assembly used to be a thing too until higher and higher languages were created. LLM is like that except it compiles English to code. This scares lot of professionals understandably.
The problem with vibe coding closer is that the agentic makes a very plasticy samey feel unless you work with something that makes it unique or can pass a template through it.
I am experimenting with writing en entire TypeScript compiler[1] with AI assistant. I've spent 4 months on it already. It might not be successful at the end of the day but my thinking is that if LLMs are going to write a lot of the code I better learn how this can and can not work. I've learned a lot from this project already. I think we're still in charge of design and big ideas even if all of the code is written by AI
I'm also experimenting with it more and more. Now I'm trying to create a 2D side-scrolling shooter with it, running in the browser. When it was relatively small, it did a good job. As the codebase and docs/ files that I'm using get larger it starts hallucinating, especially when the context gets at about 50% usage (Codex w/ gpt5.5). As in, it'll literally forget to update parts of the code.
e.g, I change velocity of player to '200' and of bullets to '300', and it only updated the bullet velocity. Then told me the player was already 'at the correct value' even though it was set to 150. Things like that.. :)
Multiple computers and each multiple Claude Code or Codex sessions. It had lots of ups and downs. Now I have a good enough test harness that makes it easier to iterate faster
Correct me if I’m wrong Simon, but weren’t you highly optimistic about llm’s and agentic-use of them?
I believe this is a common fault of not being able to zoom out and look at what trade offs are being made. There’s always trade-offs, the question is whether you can define them and then do the analysis to determine whether the result leaves you in a net benefit state.
It is pure arrogance to expect that machines will never be able to code as good as a skilled human.
And AI generated code should be different than human code. AI has infinite memory for details. AI doesn’t need organizational patterns like classes. Potentially AI can write code that is more performant than any human.
Will it look like garbage? Sure. Will the code be more suited to the task? Yes.
What will happen when AI companies increase the price of tokens?
The code produced will only be understandable by AI. You could use locally hosted LLMs, but it won't be as performant as AI run by big guys. And there is nothing stopping greedy companies implementing some ridiculous pattern that only their model can reasonably work with.
So what you'll do in situation when you can't understand "your" codebase and you have to make changes or fix a bug?
I find it hard to believe that code with unnecessary cruft and repetition is "more suited to the task". I've literally deleted hundreds of unnecessary or unused functions at this point. The only way I can agree is if "more suited" means, "it's wearing multiple suits for no reason".
Your post weeks of pure arrogance. You sound like the bozo’s at Anthropic who made an AI agent for finance and think this is somehow going to provide a huge productivity boost because all they do is a bunch of tick boxing and spreadsheet work.
> I know full well that if you ask Claude Code to build a JSON API endpoint that runs a SQL query and outputs the results as JSON, it’s just going to do it right. It’s not going to mess that up. You have it add automated tests, you have it add documentation, you know it’s going to be good.
> But I’m not reviewing that code. And now I’ve got that feeling of guilt: if I haven’t reviewed the code, is it really responsible for me to use this in production?
Answer: it wholly depends upon what management has dictated be the goal for GenAI use at the time.
There seems to be a trend of people outside of engineering organizations thinking that the "iron triangle" of software (and really, all) engineering no longer holds. Fast, cheap, good: now we can pick all three, and there's no limit to the first one in particular. They don't see why you can't crank out 10x productivity. They've been financially incentivized to think that way, and really, they can't lose if they look at it from an "engineer headcount" standpoint. The outcomes are:
1) The GenAI-augmented engineer cranks out 10x productivity without any quality consequences down the line, and keeps them from having to pay other people
or
2) The GenAI-augmented engineer cranks out 10x productivity with quality consequences down the line, at which point the engineer has given another exhibit in the case as to why they should no longer be employed at that organization. Let the lawyers and market inertia deal with the big issues that exist beyond the 90-day fiscal reporting period.
Either way, they have a route to the destination of not paying engineers, and that's the end goal.
If you don't like that way of running a software engineering organization, well, you're not alone, but if nothing else, you could use GenAI to make working for yourself less risky.
I feel like an outlier in all of this. But isn't this just more AI slop? How is this different from text generation or image generation?
Like many people I have used AI to generate crap I really don't care about. I need an image. Generate something like, whatever. Great hey a good looking image! No that's done I can do something I find more interesting to do.
But it's slop. The image does not fit the context. Its just off. And you can tell that no one really cared.
I agree, I'm actually generating just over of 20,000 lines of code each day at my company. Part of that was the mandate and leaderboards around token usage, but also they started using pull requests as an explicit metric. What I do is usually pull around 5 or so tickets at once, spin up 5 different agents on their own branch, have them work until completion, and then spin up two more agents to handle the merge request.
I'm not checking the code since the code doesn't really matter anymore anyways - I just have the agent write passing tests for the changes or additions I make, and so even if something breaks I can just point to the tests and pass the buck to my teammates.
Some days, the tickets are completed much faster than I expect and I don't hit my daily token expenditure goal, so I have my own custom harness that actually hooks up an agent to TikTok, basically it splits up the reel into 1 second increments and then feeds those frames to the LLM for it's own consumption. I can easily burn 10m tokens a day on this, and Claude seems to enjoy it.
Personally I want to thank you Simon for putting me onto this "vibe engineering" concept, I really didn't expect an archaeology major to be a real engineer but thanks to AI now I can be :)
For work I do agentic engineering. As the code that I submit for a code review is hand reviewed by me. I know every line and file that I submit.
My side project is 80% vibe code. Every now and then I look and see all the bad stuff, then I scold Codex a bit and it refactors it for me. So I do see the author's point.
Instead of "vibe coding" by asking the AI to design and write code, I'm having it refine my own designs, and write code under strict supervision and guidance, that I carefully review and iterate on.
I took a rock carving course in school that really enlightened me about software engineering, and it still applies today, especially to AI. You can't just decide what you want to carve, hold the chisel in just the right spot, and whack it with a hammer just perfectly so all the rock you want falls away leaving a perfect statue behind.
"I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free." -Michelangelo
It's a long drawn out iterative process of making millions of tiny little chips, and letting the statue inside find its way out, in its natural form, instead of trying to impose a pre-determined form onto it.
Vibe coding is hoping your first whack of the hammer is going to make a good statue, then not even looking at the statue before shipping it!
But AI assisted conscientious coding (or agentic engineering as Simon calls it) is the opposite of that, where you chip away quickly and relentlessly, but you still have to carefully control where you point it and what you carve away, and have an idea in your mind what you want before you start.
> It used to be if you found a GitHub repository with a hundred commits and a good readme and automated tests and stuff, you could be pretty sure that the person writing that had put a lot of care and attention into that project.
I think this highlights a problem that has always existed under the surface, but it's being brought into the light by proliferation of vibeslop and openclaw and their ilk. Even in the beforetimes you could craft a 100.0% pure, correct looking github repo that had never stood the test of production. Even if you had a test suite that covers every branch and every instruction, without putting the code in production you aren't going to uncover all the things your test suite didn't--performance issues, security issues, unexpected user behavior, etc.
As an observer looking at this repo, I have no way to tell. It's got hundreds of tests, hundreds of commits, dozens of stars... how am I to know nobody has ever actually used it for anything?
I don't know how to solve this problem, but it seems like there's a pretty obvious tooling gap here. A very similar problem is something like "contributor reputation", i.e. the plague of drive-by AI generated PRs from people (or openclaws) you've never seen before. Stars and number of commits aren't good enough, we need more.
I'd be lying if I said I was not worried about the future. I am not necessarily worried in the sense that there will be some grave, impeding doom that awaits the future of humanity.
Rather, I just feel like I have to constantly remind myself of the impermanence of all things. Like snow, from water come to water gone.
Perhaps I put too much of my identity in being a programmer. Sure, LLMs cannot replace most us in their current state, but what about 5 years, 10 years, ..., 50 years from now? I just cannot help be feel a sense of nihilism and existential dread.
Some might argue that we will always be needed, but I am not certain I want to be needed in such a way. Of course, no one is taking hand-coding away from me. I can hand-code all I want on my own time, but occupationally that may be difficult in the future. I have rambled enough, but all and all, I do not think I want to participate in this society anymore, but I do not know how to escape it either.
If you work in any new technology field, the chances that your job will exist in the same way 50 years from now is very small.
The job, as you have done it at least, was also not here 50 years before you started doing it.
Did you have any of the same feelings knowing that you were doing a job that has not existed in the world very long? That seems like a strange requirement for a meaningful job, that it should remain the same for 50+ years.
In truth, our world and what we do for our careers is entirely shaped by the time that we live in. Even people that ostensibly do the same thing people have done for centuries (farmer, teacher, etc) are very different today than 100 years ago.
> And that feels about right to me. I can plumb my house if I watch enough YouTube videos on plumbing. I would rather hire a plumber.
I don't buy this argument at all. I think if we could pay $20/month to a service that would send over a junior plumber/carpenter/electrician with an encyclopedic knowledge of the craft, did the right thing the majority of the time, and we could observe and direct them, we'd all sign up for that in a heartbeat. Worst case, you have to hire an experienced, expensive person to fix the mess. Yes, I can hear everyone now, "worst case is they burn your house down." Sure, but as we're reminded _constantly_ when we read stories about AI agent catastrophes -- a human could wipe your prod database too. wHy ArE yOu HoLdInG iT tO a DiFfErEnT sTaNdArD???
The business side of the house is getting to live that scenario out right now as far as software goes. Sure you've got years of expertise that an LLM doesn't have _yet_. What makes you think it can't replace that part of your job as well?
You're comparing paying $20 for an AI plumber to paying hundreds/thousands for a traditional plumber.
But that's not what the author is talking about in that passage you quoted. What he's saying is that, if you can pay $20 for an AI plumber, then it stands to reason that eventually you will be able to pay $30 to a company that manages AI plumbers for you, so that you don't even have to go to the trouble of supervising the plumber. Most people will choose the $30.
It's in a section called "Why I’m still not afraid for my career."
The implication here is software engineer jobs are still safe despite basically free labor/material being available to do said jobs because he thinks other people would prefer to pay experienced professionals to do it right at a significantly higher cost. My point is, I think most people will take the low-stakes gamble of having the cheap AI agent do it with self-supervision[0]. He's naive in thinking people are really going to care about artisanal software built by experienced professionals in the future.
0: Even if you subscribe to the "your job will be to supervise the agents" train of thought, you're kinda glossing over the fact that it's probably gonna involve a pretty significant pay cut and the looming problem of "how do new experienced professionals get created if they don't have to/don't need to get their hands dirty"?
Vibe Coding (and LLMs) did not create undisciplined engineering organizations or engineers. They exposed and accelerated them.
Plenty of engineers have loose (or no!) standards and practices over how they write coee. Similarly, plenty of engineering teams have weak and loose standards over how code gets pushed to production. This concept isn't new, it's just a lot easier for individuals and teams who have never really adhered to any sort of standards in their SDLC to produce a lot more code and flesh out ideas.
Bad engineers continue being bad, good engineers continue being good.
I personally don’t know any colleagues who were good engineers just because they wrote code faster. The best engineers I know were ones who drew on experience and careful consideration and shared critical insights with their team that steered the direction of the system positively.
> Claude, engineer a system for me, but do it good. Thanks!
> I personally don’t know any colleagues who were good engineers just because they wrote code faster
Same, if anything, the opposite seems to be true, the ones that I'd call "good engineers" were slower, less panicked when production was down and could reason their way (slowly) through pretty much anything thrown at them.
Opposite experience, I've sit next to developers who are trying their fastest to restore production and then making more mistakes to make it even worse, or developers who rush through the first implementation idea they had for a feature, missing to consider so many things and so on.
Vibe coded apps with barely no tests, invariants, etc. No wonder it turns into spaghetti. You can always refactor code, force agents to write small modular pieces and files. Good engineering is good engineering whether an agent or human wrote the code. Take time to force agents to refactor, explore choices. Humans must at least understand and drive architecture at this point still. Agents can help and do recon amazingly and provide suggestions.
> If you can go from producing 200 lines of code a day to 2,000 lines of code a day, what else breaks? The entire software development lifecycle was, it turns out, designed around the idea that it takes a day to produce a few hundred lines of code. And now it doesn’t.
It is so embarrassing that LOC is being used as a metric for engineering output.
LOC is useful here not because it's a metric for output but because it's a metric for _understandability_. Reviewing 200 lines is a very different workload than reviewing 2000.
It’s still a bad metric.
I have worked with code where 1000s of lines are very straightforward and linear.
I’ve worked on code where 100 lines is crucial and very domain specific. It can be exceptionally clean and well-commented and it still takes days to unpack.
The skills and effort required to review and understand those situations are quite different.
One is like distance driving a boring highway in the Midwest: don’t get drowsy, avoid veering into the indistinguishable corn fields, and you’ll get there. The other is like navigating a narrow mountain road in a thunderstorm: you’re 100% engaged and you might still tumble or get hit by lightning.
There’s still a limit on how far one can drive in a day, no matter the road.
Yep and both are called driving.
It’s also true for math.
1 + 1 = 2
e^(i\pi) + 1 = 0
That's assuming the 200 lines are logical and consistent. Many of my most frustrating LLM bugs are caused by things that look right and are even supported by lengthy comments explaining their (incorrect) reasoning.
Ok? No one is saying that all LOC are equal. Ceteris paribus, 2000 lines is 10x more time consuming to review than 200
The point is that LOC is never a good metric for any aspect of determining the quality of code or the coder because it ignores the nuance of reality. It's impossible to generalize because the code can be either deceptively dense or unnecessarily bloated. The only thing that actually matters is whether the business objective is achieved without any unintended side effects.
> 2000 lines is 10x more time consuming to review than 200
Very far from the truth in practice, every line of code isn't as difficult/easy to review as the other.
Its still posssible to run any LLM in a loop and optimize for LoC while preserving the wanted outcome.
I experimented with vibe coding (not looking at the code myself) and it produced around 10k LOC even after refactors etc.
I rewrote the same program using my own brain and just using ChatGPT as google and autocomplete (my normal workflow), I produced the same thing in 1500 LOC.
The effort difference was not that significant either tbh although my hand coded approach probably benefited from designing the vibe coded one so I had already though of what I wanted to build.
Sounds like a great oppurtunity to understand your own development process, and codify it in such detail that the agent can replicate how you work and end up with less code but doing the same.
My experience was the same as you when I started using agents for development about a year ago. Every time I noticed it did something less-than-optimal or just "not up to my standards", I'd hash out exactly what those things meant for me, added it to my reusable AGENTS.md and the code the agent outputs today is fairly close to what I "naturally" write.
He's not using LOC as a metric, he's making an observation about the impact of a change in the typical volume of LOC.
LOC is the worst metric for engineering output, except for all the others - Churchill
The amount of times an engineer says what the fuck while reading code still seems like a reliable metric for code quality assessment.
Agreed. And, LOC has historically been one of the things we've collectively fought against management for how to evalute a "productive" developer!
Why?
We should have gone the other way; generated a lot of code and demanded pay raises; look at the LOC I cranked out! Company is now in my debt!
If they weren't going to care enough as managers to learn and line go up is all that matters to them, make all lines go up = winning
You all think there's more to this than performative barter for coin to spend on food/shelter.
Because not everyone is just out after earning the most money, some people also want to enjoy the workplace where they work. Personally, what the quality of the codebase and infrastructure is in matters a lot for how much you enjoy working in it, and I'd much rather work in a codebase I enjoy and earn half, than a codebase made by just jerking out as many LOC as possible and earn double.
Although this requires you to take pride in your profession and what you do.
Is it? The whole point of the article is that the rate of output for writing code has surpassed the rate at which it can be reviewed by humans. LOC as an input for software review makes a lot of sense, since you literally need to read each line.
Humans are also incredibly varied and different.
Do you reject all stats that treat the number of people involved (eg. 2 million pepole protested X) as "embarrassing" ... because they lump incredibly varied people together and pretend they're equal?
I read somewhere that measuring software engineering output by LoC is like measuring aerospace engineering by pounds added to the plane and I thought that was an apt comparison.
At least "mentions of LOC" is now a great metric for "how clueless is this person"
Totally. I thought Simon was wiser than this; even he couldn't resist getting swept up by breathless hype. The moment you start typing "LOC as a metric", alarm bells should go off in your head.
People in the future are going to wonder what the hell we were thinking, when 30 years down the line everything is a hot mess of billions of lines of code generated by LLMs that no human has read almost any of it and is no longer possible for anyone to maintain neither with nor without LLMs. And the LLM generated garbage will have drowned out all of the good quality code that ever existed and no one will be able to find even human generated code anymore on the internet.
Makes me want to just give up programming forever and never use a computer again.
By then, the fix will be easy. Fire up the latest LLM, point it at your codebase and tell it "rewrite this from scratch. do it well. fix the architecture mistakes"
We can do this today too (but definitely hopefully future LLMs make better architectural decisions). With Claude, I've been working on an application for the last 2 months. I didn't have a great vision of what I wanted when I started but I didn't want that to slow me down. The architecture is terrible - Claude separated some functionality into different classes but did a bad job at it and created a big ball of mud. Now that I finally have my vision locked down and implemented (albeit poorly), it'd be a great time to throw it away and start over. It'd be interesting to see the result and see how long it takes.
It won't be an LLM that does it, the entire feature of an LLM is it produces generalizable reasonably "correct" text in response to a context.
The system that makes it have an opinion about good vs bad architecture or engineering sensibilities will be something on top of the transformer and probably something more deterministic than a prompt.
Will work just as good as today or 20 years ago.
Are you suggesting AI coding was as good 20 years ago as it is today?
I think they're being sarcastic, saying that rewrites from scratch have rarely worked well (whether done by AI or humans).
It sure wrote less crappy code.
Do you think new LLMs are going to write better and better code? When all they are going to have is the slop generated by previous, worse models?
"Write me a really cool game, that will make me lots of money, fast!"
Make me a 1hr episode of my favorite book. Make it as lore accurate as possible. Plot out the script for the next 100 episodes.
I see your point, however: EA sports has been doing this for literally the entire lifetime of gaming as an industry
Electronic Sharts slogans and franchises:
"Shit's in the Game!"
"Chunder Everything"
"Maddening NFL 26"
"FIFiAsco 26"
"UFC 26 (Un Finished Code)"
"The Shits 4"
"Battlefailed"
"Need for Greed"
"Make sure to double check everything, and MAKE NO MISTAKES!!!"
Don't hallucinate!
"YOU'RE A SENIOR SOFTWARE ENGINEER!!!"
First, most software is already a hot mess.
Second, LLM code can be less of a hot mess than human written code if you put in the time to train/prompt/verify/review.
Generating perfect well patterned SOLID and unit tested code with no warnings or anti-patterns has never been easier.
The only people who are going to put in the time, are people who care enough to. The problem is you have people who didn’t care before who were equipped with a garden hose. Now that they have a fully pressurized fire hose they can make more of a mess faster.
Like with a lot of things in this space, it depends where you invest your effort. If you care about quality design and good code, you can definitely get there - but that doesn't happen by default.
With the right investment, we could certainly have tooling that creates and maintains very good designs out of the box. My bet is that we'll continue chasing quick and hacky code, mostly because that's the majority of the code that it was trained on, and because the majority of people seem to be interested in a quick result vs a long-term maintainable one.
Right, but it takes one to know one. Many don’t have the ability to decipher what’s good stable output or not
I'm generally pro "llm assisted coding" or whatever you want to call it. But I do somethings think about the Butlerian Jihad from Dune.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dune:_The_Butlerian_Jihad
If you like sci-fi takes on software systems, check out Vernor Vinge "A Fire upon the deep" and sequels. I recall ship systems software is something like all the code humanity has ever written, plus centuries of LLM churn. One of the protagonists is a space faring software developer particularly good with legacy code.
We are used to thinking about software like in the article, a program that runs deterministically in an OS. Where we are headed might be more like where the LLM or AI system is the OS, and accomplishes things we want through a combination of pre-written legacy software, and perhaps able to accomplish new things on the fly.
Pham Nuwen is a master of vibe patching legacy sedimentary software.
Interesting, I kinda do this. Sometimes when an LLM solves a problem for me, I have it write code so that I can reuse that exact same approach deterministically(and I line by line check it). Now I have about a dozen CLI commands that the LLM can use and I'm reasonably (although not 100%) sure I'll get an expected outcome. Really helpful with debugging via steam pipe and connecting to read replicas.
Sounds like a recipe for Star Trek holodeck malfunctions.
Hello from assembly programmers to present day javascript folks. Joke aside, I sometimes think how VS Code is written in such layers and layers of code - ~200mb of minified code - Java based IDEs were worser with almost 1GB of code (libs/dependencies). And VS Code did beat native editors (Sublime) of its time to dominate now - may be because of the business model (open & free vs freemium). But it does the job quite well IMO. And it enabled swarms of startups to go to market including billion $ wrappers - including Cursor, Antigravity and almost all UI coding agents. I remember backend developers (Java/C++ type) looking down upon Javascript developers as if we are from an inferior planet or something.
How many of us remember that VSCode is actually a browser wrapped inside a native frame?
VS Code has two things that worked well for it. Web Tech and Money. Web tech makes it easy to write plugins (you already know the stack vs learning python for sublime). And I wonder how much traction it would get if not Microsoft paying devs to wrangle Electron in a usable shape.
If 30 years down the line I still have to look at code, maintain code, or even worry in the slightest about code, something went deeply wrong.
There is nothing in the post to support the statement. An interesting personal confession, but it does not establish that vibe coding and agentic engineering are converging as a general phenomenon.
As a piece of meat, I look forward to charge rates of $10,000 an hour, to fix code out the vibe code generation.
> As a piece of meat, I look forward to charge rates of $10,000 an hour, to fix code out the vibe code generation.
Sorry, we found a foreign worker who was willing to work 1.5x more than you at a fraction of the cost.
By then AI would be good enough to clean them all up....like I dont get these dooming scenarios they always assume that we are going to be stuck with LLMs and there wont be anything new coming.
To make my comment more on-topic: why do you think this is going to be the case? What newer LLMs will be trained on?
Why does it matter, as long as it accomplishes the task?
> People in the future are going to wonder what the hell we were thinking, when 30 years down the line everything is a hot mess of billions of lines of code generated by LLMs that no human has read
--
It's just as likely that people will be surprised that we used to have billions of lines of human generated code, that no LLM ever approved.
If that is the case market forces would likely favor hand written code and all the slop will be forgotten (unless the slop works fine and is stable).
The market is hardly as rational as people would like to hope it is, though it does at least have its own twisted sort of internal consistency.
I don't think that's how money works. Enough people have poured enough money into this thing that the actual, measurable results/efficacy/ROI are of secondary importance (to put it mildly). At this point AI adoption is (at least sold as) a fait accompli.
This is wishful thinking. The force of the market is "number go up". Quality increasingly has less and less of a role in the equation. You will eat your slop, and you will like it. It will be the only choice you have.
But the quality of code was already very bad due to market forces. Most code at large companies is notoriously poor despite the talent density, because the incentives are not there to tackle tech debt or improve code quality.
With such a low baseline, there is an optimistic perspective that LLMs could improve the situation. LLMs can produce excellent code when prompted or reviewed well. Unlike human employees, the model does not worry about getting a 'partially meets expectations' rating or avoid the drudgery of cleaning up other people's code.
The model is optimized in a different way to "partially meet expectations". Sycophancy coupled with only really "knowing" what it has been trained on assure a different kind of mediocrity.
The same incentives that discourage good code in pre-AI times are still dominating now. You will be pushed to ship sub-par products in the future, just like you were in the past.
AI certainly has the potential to make the underlying code/design a lot cleaner. We will also be working with dramatically more code, at a much higher rate of change. That alone will be a big challenge to keep sustainable.
The ones making the decision to under-invest on design are either are unaware of the real costs, or are aware and are deliberately choosing that path - that's not new, and I don't expect it to change.
I agree generally but there are periods where creative people show up and a whole slew of existing firms go bust/shrink due to one’s ability to envision a path toward creative destruction.
> Makes me want to just give up programming forever and never use a computer again.
LLMs aren’t the first thing to come along and change how people develop applications.
You had the rise of frameworks like Django, Rails, etc. Also the rise of SPAs. And also the rise of JS as a frontend+backend language.
In a 3-5 yeats we’ll have adapted to the new norm like we have in the past
The difference between writing assembly code and Ruby code is much smaller than the difference between programming and vibe coding.
Also, companies are pressuring employees towards adoption in novel ways. There was no such industry-wide pressure by employers in the 90s, 2000s or 2010s for engineers to use a specific tech.
Or, it could be like asbestos and the immediate benefits are just too appealing to listen to arguments of skeptical naysayers about some vaguely defined problems that are decades away, if they even happen.
I use AI tools daily (because they feel like they're helping me) but it's not exactly hard to imagine scenarios where an explosion of slop piling up plus harm to learning by outsourcing all thinking results in systemic damage that actually slows the pace of technological progress given enough time.
History of new technologies tend to average into a positive trend over a long enough time scale but that doesn't mean there aren't individual ups and downs. Including WTF moments looking back at what now seems like baffling decision-making with benefit of hindsight.
Some of us are already experiencing that. For example I handed off an initial version of something some months ago, and the AI-generated stuff they came up with was a huge buggy mess of spaghetti code neither of us understood. Months later we've detangled it, cutting it down to a third the size, making it far simpler to understand, and fixing several bugs in the process (one was even by accident, we'd made note of it, then later when we went to fix it, it was already fixed).
> Or, it could be like asbestos
If it is, the fall out will be way worse than if AI ends up living up to (reasonable) expectations.
If it doesn’t, we are going to see over a trillion dollars of capital leave the tech sector, which I think will have worse impacts on the livelihood of tech workers than if AI ends up panning out.
This is something the naysayers need to grapple with. We’ve crossed a line where this tech needs to work simply because of the amount of money depending on that fact.
The asbestos hypothetical is a bit different than the "bubble popping" economic crisis scenario though. In this world, AI would just continue being adopted and shoved into every nook and cranny into which it can be made to fit, with valuations only getting bigger and bigger.
The damage would come much later, well beyond the point where it could be simply pulled out and replaced without spending massive amounts of money and would also basically necessitate training an entire new generation of engineers.
Then the AI giants would start appearing vulnerable like cigarette companies in the 90s while an AI Superfund and interstate class action are being planned but Sam Altman would already be a centitrillionaire at that point so it would be someone else's problem.
Perhaps I've missed a few weeks worth of progress, but I don't think that AIs have become more trustworthy, the errors are just more subtle.
If the code doesn't compile, that's easy to spot. If the code compiles but doesn't work, that's still somewhat easy to spot.
If the code compiles and works, but it does the wrong thing in some edge case, or has a security vulnerability, or introduces tech debt or dubious architectural decisions, that's harder to spot but doesn't reduce the review burden whatsoever.
If anything, "truthy" code is more mentally taxing to review than just obviously bad code.
I know there are good uses of LLMs out there. I do. But.
The current fever pitch mandates from above seem to want it applied liberally, and pushing back against that is so discouraging and often career-limiting as to wear the fabric of one's psyche threadbare. With all the obvious problems being pointed out to people, there are just as many workarounds; and these workarounds, as is often revealed shortly thereafter, have their own problems, which beget new solutions, ad infinitum.
At some point it genuinely seems like all this work is for the sake of the machine itself. I suppose that is true: The real goal has become obscured at so many firms today, that all that remains is the LLM. Are the people betting the farm and helping implement the visions of those who have done so guaranteed a soft exit to cushion them from the consequences, or is rationality really being discarded altogether?
Sure, sound engineering principles can help work around these problems, but what efficiency is truly gained, in terms of cognitive load, developer time, money, or finite resources? Or were those ever an earnest concern?
This has generally been the case, though. As mentioned in the post, "You want solutions that are proven to work before you take a risk on them" remains true and will be place where the edges are found.
Have you noticed that the coding agents get really close to the solution on the first one shot and then require tons of work to get that last 10% or 5%?
If we shift the paradigm of how we approach a coding problem, the coding agents can close that gap. Ten years ago every 10 or 15 minutes I would stop coding and start refactoring, testing, and analyzing making sure everything is perfect before proceeding because a bug will corrupt any downstream code. The coding agents don't and can't do this. They keep that bug or malformed architecture as they continue.
The instinct is to get the coding agents to stop at these points. However, that is impossible for several reasons. Instead, because it is very cheap, we should find the first place the agent made a mistake and update the prompt. Instead of fixing it, delete all the code (because it is very cheap), and run from the top. Continue this iteration process until the prompt yields the perfect code.
Ah, but you say, that is a lot of work done by a human! That is the whole point. The humans are still needed. The process using the tool like this yields 10x speed at writing code.
This was often true when writing code manually to be fair.
You could get to "something that works" rather fast but it took a long time to 1) evaluate other options (maybe before, maybe after), 2) refine it, 3) test it and build confidence around it.
I think your point stands but no one really knows where. The next year or so is going to be everyone trying to figure that out (this is also why we hear a lot of "we need to reinvent github")
When I hire fresh out of college… I can see them coming in and not having the slightest comprehension of the difference of the things that they did in school to get a grade and never touch it again versus a product that is supposed to exist and work for 10+ years.
I tend to get something working and refactor my way out, which does work and you can use a coding agent to do it, but it takes time. Maybe starting over would have been better, but I didn’t know what I wanted the architecture to look like at the beginning.
The problem of life in general is the last 5-10% is always the hardest. And it makes no economic sense in many cases to invest in trying to make that last part mechanised.
I believe the llm providers went with the wrong approach from the off - the focus should’ve been on complementing labour not displacement. And I believe they have learned an expensive lesson along the way.
Claude often does things in more detail, and even better, than I would, in the first pass. But I don't understand how anybody stands comments generated by an LLM?
It's seriously the thing that worries (and bothers) me the most. I almost never let unedited LLM comments pass. At a minimum.
Most of the time, I use my own vibe-coded tool to run multiple GitHub-PR-review-style reviews, and send them off to the agent to make the code look and work fine.
It also struggles with doing things the idiomatic way for huge codebases, or sometimes it's just plain wrong about why something works, even if it gets it right.
And I say this despite the fact that I don't really write much code by hand anymore, only the important ones (if even!) or the interesting ones.
Also, don't even get me started on AI-generated READMEs... I use Claude to refine my Markdown or automatically handle dark/light-mode, but I try to write everything myself, because I can't stand what it generates.
I find that the best thing about generating documentation with LLM's is that it gets me angry enough to rewrite it correctly.
"Ugh, no! Why would you say it like that? That's not even how it works! Now, I need to write a full paragraph instead of a short snippet to make sure that no future agents get confused in the same way."
The comments aren't an LLM thing, they're a Claude thing. Codex doesn't write those gross hyper-verbose comments.
The current state of the technology is that you must read at least some of the code, but everyone keeps shipping tools that are focussed on churning out more and more stuff without giving you any affordances to really understand the output.
Claude Code in particular seems really uninterested in this aspect of the problem and I've stopped using entirely because of this.
Agentic engineering? That reads to me a little like amateur oncologist. How are you defining engineering?
Can agentic engineers adhere to a similar code of ethics that a professional engineer is sworn to uphold?
https://www.nspe.org/career-growth/nspe-code-ethics-engineer...
The problem of calling what most of us do "engineering" predates LLMs by a good 15-20 years.
This is a timely observation and feels right to me. I needed to get a relatively simple batch download -> transform -> api endpoint stood up. I wrote a fairly detailed prompt but left a lot of implementation details out, including data sources.
Opus 4.7 built it about 90% the same way I would, but had way more convenience methods and step-validations included.
It's great, and really frees me up to think about harder problems.
> The thing that really helps me is thinking back to when I’ve worked at larger organizations where I’ve been an engineering manager. Other teams are building software that my team depends on.
> If another team hands over something and says, “hey, this is the image resize service, here’s how to use it to resize your images”... I’m not going to go and read every line of code that they wrote.
The distance of accountability of the output from its producer is an important metric. Who will be held accountable for which output: that's important to maintain and not feel the "guilt".
So, organizations would need to focus on better and more granular building incentives and punishment mechanisms for large-scale software projects.
I think this is what people mean when they say LLMs are a higher level abstraction. We still need to consider edge cases and have tests. We still to sweat the architecture and understand how the pieces fit together and have a mental map of the codebase. But within each bottom node of that architecture we don't sweat the details. Anything obvious gets caught right away. Most subtle/interaction-based issues occur at the architecture level. Anything that bypasses those filters is a weird bug that is no worse or different from a normal bug fixes - an edge case that was hit in a real world scenario that gets flagged by a user or a logged as an error.
There are certain codebases and pieces of code we definitely want every line to be reasoned and understood. But like his API endpoint example, no reason to fuss with the boilerplate.
This has definitely been my shift over the past few months, and the advantage is I can spend much more time and energy on getting the code architecture just right, which automatically prevents most of the subtle bugs that has people wringing their hands. The new bar is architecting code to be defined as well as an API endpoint->service structure so you can rely on LLMs to paint by numbers for new features/logic.
There are techniques for improving our confidence in our software: unit testing, integration testing, fuzz testing, property-based testing, static analysis, model checking, theorem proving, formal methods, etc. The LLM is not only a tool for generating lines of code. It can also generate lines of testing. The goal is that the tests are easier to audit by the humans than the code.
I think I'm just too opinionated to go there. If I see something that works fine, but isn't the way I'd do it, it doesn't matter if a human or an LLM wrote it I'm still in there making it match my vision.
100%. I don't think any senior programmer ever looks at another developer's code and says, "Oh yeah, that's just the way I'd do it."
But I assume you don't go and change all your co-workers code just because they didn't do it how you would have done it?
Even the most toxic places I've worked that kind of behavior would totally get you canned.
I concur, and I think that is one of the most difficult aspects of reviewing another's code. It's difficult for me to sometimes differentiate between what is acceptable vs. what I would have done. I have to be very conscious to not impose my ideals.
So you are going to waste everyone's time getting another developer to write code the way you want? This resonates with me because at my company I get this all the time. At that point, you might as well close my PR and do it yourself, whatever way you want. I really like the advice from the book 0 2 1, to assign different areas of responsibility to people, so that there is no conflict.
That's not how most organizations work, AI or not.
What do you mean?
As agents get better at code we trust them to produce more of it. There are still bugs to find, but the haystack gets bigger.
So the number of bugs to find remains constant but the amount of code to review scales with the capability of the agent.
Vibe coding is just coding now. Writing assembly used to be a thing too until higher and higher languages were created. LLM is like that except it compiles English to code. This scares lot of professionals understandably.
The problem with vibe coding closer is that the agentic makes a very plasticy samey feel unless you work with something that makes it unique or can pass a template through it.
I am experimenting with writing en entire TypeScript compiler[1] with AI assistant. I've spent 4 months on it already. It might not be successful at the end of the day but my thinking is that if LLMs are going to write a lot of the code I better learn how this can and can not work. I've learned a lot from this project already. I think we're still in charge of design and big ideas even if all of the code is written by AI
[1] https://github.com/mohsen1/tsz
I'm also experimenting with it more and more. Now I'm trying to create a 2D side-scrolling shooter with it, running in the browser. When it was relatively small, it did a good job. As the codebase and docs/ files that I'm using get larger it starts hallucinating, especially when the context gets at about 50% usage (Codex w/ gpt5.5). As in, it'll literally forget to update parts of the code.
e.g, I change velocity of player to '200' and of bullets to '300', and it only updated the bullet velocity. Then told me the player was already 'at the correct value' even though it was set to 150. Things like that.. :)
>25k commits in 4 months or about 1 commit every 7 minutes
How do you manage/orchestrate this? I'm genuinely curious.
Multiple computers and each multiple Claude Code or Codex sessions. It had lots of ups and downs. Now I have a good enough test harness that makes it easier to iterate faster
Correct me if I’m wrong Simon, but weren’t you highly optimistic about llm’s and agentic-use of them?
I believe this is a common fault of not being able to zoom out and look at what trade offs are being made. There’s always trade-offs, the question is whether you can define them and then do the analysis to determine whether the result leaves you in a net benefit state.
It is pure arrogance to expect that machines will never be able to code as good as a skilled human.
And AI generated code should be different than human code. AI has infinite memory for details. AI doesn’t need organizational patterns like classes. Potentially AI can write code that is more performant than any human.
Will it look like garbage? Sure. Will the code be more suited to the task? Yes.
What will happen when AI companies increase the price of tokens?
The code produced will only be understandable by AI. You could use locally hosted LLMs, but it won't be as performant as AI run by big guys. And there is nothing stopping greedy companies implementing some ridiculous pattern that only their model can reasonably work with.
So what you'll do in situation when you can't understand "your" codebase and you have to make changes or fix a bug?
I find it hard to believe that code with unnecessary cruft and repetition is "more suited to the task". I've literally deleted hundreds of unnecessary or unused functions at this point. The only way I can agree is if "more suited" means, "it's wearing multiple suits for no reason".
I would only add one caveat to this:
Code that is organized well and operates coherently in the first place, by an LLM or not, will be easier to iterate on, by an LLM or not.
Your post weeks of pure arrogance. You sound like the bozo’s at Anthropic who made an AI agent for finance and think this is somehow going to provide a huge productivity boost because all they do is a bunch of tick boxing and spreadsheet work.
No, just no.
> I know full well that if you ask Claude Code to build a JSON API endpoint that runs a SQL query and outputs the results as JSON, it’s just going to do it right. It’s not going to mess that up. You have it add automated tests, you have it add documentation, you know it’s going to be good.
> But I’m not reviewing that code. And now I’ve got that feeling of guilt: if I haven’t reviewed the code, is it really responsible for me to use this in production?
Answer: it wholly depends upon what management has dictated be the goal for GenAI use at the time.
There seems to be a trend of people outside of engineering organizations thinking that the "iron triangle" of software (and really, all) engineering no longer holds. Fast, cheap, good: now we can pick all three, and there's no limit to the first one in particular. They don't see why you can't crank out 10x productivity. They've been financially incentivized to think that way, and really, they can't lose if they look at it from an "engineer headcount" standpoint. The outcomes are:
1) The GenAI-augmented engineer cranks out 10x productivity without any quality consequences down the line, and keeps them from having to pay other people
or
2) The GenAI-augmented engineer cranks out 10x productivity with quality consequences down the line, at which point the engineer has given another exhibit in the case as to why they should no longer be employed at that organization. Let the lawyers and market inertia deal with the big issues that exist beyond the 90-day fiscal reporting period.
Either way, they have a route to the destination of not paying engineers, and that's the end goal.
If you don't like that way of running a software engineering organization, well, you're not alone, but if nothing else, you could use GenAI to make working for yourself less risky.
I feel like an outlier in all of this. But isn't this just more AI slop? How is this different from text generation or image generation?
Like many people I have used AI to generate crap I really don't care about. I need an image. Generate something like, whatever. Great hey a good looking image! No that's done I can do something I find more interesting to do.
But it's slop. The image does not fit the context. Its just off. And you can tell that no one really cared.
This isn't good.
I agree, I'm actually generating just over of 20,000 lines of code each day at my company. Part of that was the mandate and leaderboards around token usage, but also they started using pull requests as an explicit metric. What I do is usually pull around 5 or so tickets at once, spin up 5 different agents on their own branch, have them work until completion, and then spin up two more agents to handle the merge request.
I'm not checking the code since the code doesn't really matter anymore anyways - I just have the agent write passing tests for the changes or additions I make, and so even if something breaks I can just point to the tests and pass the buck to my teammates.
Some days, the tickets are completed much faster than I expect and I don't hit my daily token expenditure goal, so I have my own custom harness that actually hooks up an agent to TikTok, basically it splits up the reel into 1 second increments and then feeds those frames to the LLM for it's own consumption. I can easily burn 10m tokens a day on this, and Claude seems to enjoy it.
Personally I want to thank you Simon for putting me onto this "vibe engineering" concept, I really didn't expect an archaeology major to be a real engineer but thanks to AI now I can be :)
For work I do agentic engineering. As the code that I submit for a code review is hand reviewed by me. I know every line and file that I submit.
My side project is 80% vibe code. Every now and then I look and see all the bad stuff, then I scold Codex a bit and it refactors it for me. So I do see the author's point.
Instead of "vibe coding" by asking the AI to design and write code, I'm having it refine my own designs, and write code under strict supervision and guidance, that I carefully review and iterate on.
I took a rock carving course in school that really enlightened me about software engineering, and it still applies today, especially to AI. You can't just decide what you want to carve, hold the chisel in just the right spot, and whack it with a hammer just perfectly so all the rock you want falls away leaving a perfect statue behind.
"I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free." -Michelangelo
It's a long drawn out iterative process of making millions of tiny little chips, and letting the statue inside find its way out, in its natural form, instead of trying to impose a pre-determined form onto it.
Vibe coding is hoping your first whack of the hammer is going to make a good statue, then not even looking at the statue before shipping it!
But AI assisted conscientious coding (or agentic engineering as Simon calls it) is the opposite of that, where you chip away quickly and relentlessly, but you still have to carefully control where you point it and what you carve away, and have an idea in your mind what you want before you start.
> It used to be if you found a GitHub repository with a hundred commits and a good readme and automated tests and stuff, you could be pretty sure that the person writing that had put a lot of care and attention into that project.
I think this highlights a problem that has always existed under the surface, but it's being brought into the light by proliferation of vibeslop and openclaw and their ilk. Even in the beforetimes you could craft a 100.0% pure, correct looking github repo that had never stood the test of production. Even if you had a test suite that covers every branch and every instruction, without putting the code in production you aren't going to uncover all the things your test suite didn't--performance issues, security issues, unexpected user behavior, etc.
As an observer looking at this repo, I have no way to tell. It's got hundreds of tests, hundreds of commits, dozens of stars... how am I to know nobody has ever actually used it for anything?
I don't know how to solve this problem, but it seems like there's a pretty obvious tooling gap here. A very similar problem is something like "contributor reputation", i.e. the plague of drive-by AI generated PRs from people (or openclaws) you've never seen before. Stars and number of commits aren't good enough, we need more.
Simon,
Just piggy backing on this post since I'm early:
Would love to see your take on how the AI and Django worlds will collide.
I'd be lying if I said I was not worried about the future. I am not necessarily worried in the sense that there will be some grave, impeding doom that awaits the future of humanity.
Rather, I just feel like I have to constantly remind myself of the impermanence of all things. Like snow, from water come to water gone.
Perhaps I put too much of my identity in being a programmer. Sure, LLMs cannot replace most us in their current state, but what about 5 years, 10 years, ..., 50 years from now? I just cannot help be feel a sense of nihilism and existential dread.
Some might argue that we will always be needed, but I am not certain I want to be needed in such a way. Of course, no one is taking hand-coding away from me. I can hand-code all I want on my own time, but occupationally that may be difficult in the future. I have rambled enough, but all and all, I do not think I want to participate in this society anymore, but I do not know how to escape it either.
If you work in any new technology field, the chances that your job will exist in the same way 50 years from now is very small.
The job, as you have done it at least, was also not here 50 years before you started doing it.
Did you have any of the same feelings knowing that you were doing a job that has not existed in the world very long? That seems like a strange requirement for a meaningful job, that it should remain the same for 50+ years.
In truth, our world and what we do for our careers is entirely shaped by the time that we live in. Even people that ostensibly do the same thing people have done for centuries (farmer, teacher, etc) are very different today than 100 years ago.
> And that feels about right to me. I can plumb my house if I watch enough YouTube videos on plumbing. I would rather hire a plumber.
I don't buy this argument at all. I think if we could pay $20/month to a service that would send over a junior plumber/carpenter/electrician with an encyclopedic knowledge of the craft, did the right thing the majority of the time, and we could observe and direct them, we'd all sign up for that in a heartbeat. Worst case, you have to hire an experienced, expensive person to fix the mess. Yes, I can hear everyone now, "worst case is they burn your house down." Sure, but as we're reminded _constantly_ when we read stories about AI agent catastrophes -- a human could wipe your prod database too. wHy ArE yOu HoLdInG iT tO a DiFfErEnT sTaNdArD???
The business side of the house is getting to live that scenario out right now as far as software goes. Sure you've got years of expertise that an LLM doesn't have _yet_. What makes you think it can't replace that part of your job as well?
You're comparing paying $20 for an AI plumber to paying hundreds/thousands for a traditional plumber.
But that's not what the author is talking about in that passage you quoted. What he's saying is that, if you can pay $20 for an AI plumber, then it stands to reason that eventually you will be able to pay $30 to a company that manages AI plumbers for you, so that you don't even have to go to the trouble of supervising the plumber. Most people will choose the $30.
It's in a section called "Why I’m still not afraid for my career."
The implication here is software engineer jobs are still safe despite basically free labor/material being available to do said jobs because he thinks other people would prefer to pay experienced professionals to do it right at a significantly higher cost. My point is, I think most people will take the low-stakes gamble of having the cheap AI agent do it with self-supervision[0]. He's naive in thinking people are really going to care about artisanal software built by experienced professionals in the future.
0: Even if you subscribe to the "your job will be to supervise the agents" train of thought, you're kinda glossing over the fact that it's probably gonna involve a pretty significant pay cut and the looming problem of "how do new experienced professionals get created if they don't have to/don't need to get their hands dirty"?
I literally do pay $20 a month to have a plumber service on call.
And that includes materials, labor, and will be there the instant you need them?