Now add in the fun of “I manage multiple Apple accounts for relatively non-technical entities who I have to poke periodically to sign the new terms”.
Just went through this yesterday. And often my main contact at a company is not the same as the person who can sign the agreement so there is yet another person I need to reach out to.
But heck, even at my company, I don’t control signing that agreement and so I have to bug someone higher up to do it. It’s such a PITA. I curse Apple every time my CI fails due to this.
The only thing I hate more is enterprise signing, literally landlines everywhere.
To be fair, people can get phones and install a FOSS OS on it, that's pretty easy, it's sad that Apple does this, but I would expect the same thing on Windows or practically any commercial provider, nothing is really surprising here.
It actually surprise me how many Linux users that do care about their security & privacy just seem to apply poor judgement when it's about their mobile devices, sure, you might not get the LATEST phone but who cares? Why are people trading their values and expertise the moment they touch the latest Samsung or iPhone? What's so special about them anyway, there is literally alternatives (or just vibe code it) for most softwares on it.
Indeed, that's why it's important to vote with your wallet. Buy a phone from a manufacturer/program like Sony's Open Devices (<https://opendevices.sony.net/>) rather than, say, Apple.
I think it's one of the last remnants of "don't be evil" at Google -- the Pixel devices are quite friendly toward alternative installs, much more so than most manufacturers.
And, now that Motorola and Graphene OS have announced a partnership, future Motorola devices may be a good option as well.
Is there any updated list of all these devices? They should be my next one. These are not available in Greece and the one it is is 1720 Euros. Big ouch!!!
It is unfortunate that Rapsberry Pi 5 got that expensive because I wanted a Keyboard 500+ just for running some Foss Android Distribution (not a phone replacement)
There is a list of 'device-sony-[codename]' repositories on Sony's Xperia development GitHub (<https://github.com/sonyxperiadev>), if need be you can cross-reference those with the devices listed on the LineageOS website (<https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/#sony>, interestingly LOS calls the XZ2 Compact the xz2c, when Sony calls it the apollo).
Yes, they’re allowed to make changes and you can either accept them
(the matter being discussed here) or refuse them. But you do need to be given the option.
This is the dark pattern of "upload everything and delete the local copies" laid bare.
This is possible to override, of course. But it's not the default, so only the most tech-savvy users make use of the settings that keep your videos and photos local.
All in service of getting you to pay for iCloud storage when your phone starts to contain more data than they offer for free (5GB, which is laughable in 2026).
Wow my timing for buying a NAS and strong-arming my family to upload all of their stuff there was perfect it seems! I literally bought it a couple months ago, exactly because I was expecting to get locked out of either my account or my photos at some point
>They upload the pictures to iCloud even though I didn’t sign up.
Many a celeb has been bitten by this one, Apple is 100% evil for doing it. I guess they just do it for lulz? Odd for one of the richest companies on earth
Also anecdotal, but I’ve had iCloud Photos explicitly disabled for nearly a decade and it has never toggled on accidentally. (Even through getting several new devices.)
Maybe the issue is that it gets enabled by default if you haven’t had an account before?
[<$] I have no official connection with them, but have been a very happy customer of <http://eshop.macsales.com> (et.al.) for decades – they sell this model for a few hundred dollars, with a short-term warranty (to determine stability) – don't get the D700s, they reputation is flakeyAF – if I hadn't been gifted this phenomenal & "obsolete" machine, I would now purchase one
[0] e.g. native USB3 support (via Thunderbolt2/3 adapter); no OCLP hackintoshing (neat_but_cobbled.gif)
----
Of course having spinning HDDs isn't possible inside of this "trashcan" MacPro, but adding an external 4-bay Terramaster (hotswappable) has given me the 24TB fileserver I've always dreamed of... which allowed me to finally retire my MacPro5,1 [•] entirely from the macintosh ecosystem (now a Linux cryptominer/node, only when heating is otherwise on).
[•] The MacPro6,1 with an external hard disk is infinitely more usable than a MacPro5,1 – doesn't require any OCLP and is very very stable/interactive. In my usagecase, I have used four networked spinning platters to replace eight (and removed two other machines entirely from network). This is approximately a 250W continuous load removed from a residential environment, equivalent to your refrigerator running (all the time)
I moved my photos to self hosting so I’m in control. I’ve seen enough stories to worry about losing them with Apple. Google and Amazon are using them however they please.
Apple has a fix for that. Background uploads from apps like Immich are tied to how often you open the app. So if you’re not constantly opening the app you rely on for sync, it’ll silently fail and you won’t notice. So 3rd party apps feel unreliable when compared to Apple’s solution.
Apple, Google, and Microsoft act like ransomware gangs when it comes to photos. I hope we see the day where all 3 get split into a thousand different companies.
Edit: I just checked and my photos stopped syncing 14 days ago. Thanks for the garbage Apple!!
I have a monthly recurring task in my task manager to open the Dropbox app on my iPhone and leave it in-focus for a couple of minutes while it uploads the previous month’s photos.
If I don’t do that, then it just won’t upload them.
I gave up on real time synchronization and I just do manual periodic bulk downloads. In my case using google takeout, but I'm sure Apple lets you do the same thing.
Conversion sounds too soft and they probably have an army of lawyers to argue that it's not somehow not technically Conversion in $jurisdiction. "Theft by extortion" is probably better since they are saying agree to the terms or your computer isn't yours, your files aren't yours.
The comment you are replying to did not say we should kill a CEO, it said we are adults and if we are talking about killing a CEO we should use the word kill and not some self-censored euphemism.
I'm having a hard time understanding where the miscommunication is. What I'm saying is: not allowing a user to access their pictures without accepting a change in the terms of service is bad. A renegotiation of terms of a contract when one party has all the power (Apple, who has the pictures the user took and the user cares about) is inherently unfair and it should be just as easy for the user to say 'I don't agree, give me back my pictures and I'll stop using your service' as it is to say 'I agree and will keep using your service'.
It is why I'm not buying the Steam Controller, you need a user account, software running in the background and you need to accept the terms and services of Valve before you are able to use it. That is just unacceptable to me. Other controllers don't have all that.
accept all cookies. Yesss! download the app! I would love to hear about your new feature. Yes, I'd love to ask your new AI assistant <weird-unique-name> for help!
> I never paid for Apple’s iCloud service so I am a little surprised that not only were my pictures uploaded, the local copy was deleted.
Seriously? Where does Apple ask if you want to use the cloud storage separately and explicitly?
Does it say we will delete files from your device and move them to our “cloud storage” without involving by your choice or asking for confirmation” anywhere when you setup your iPhone?
> Does it say we will delete files from your device and move them to our “cloud storage” without involving by your choice or asking for confirmation” anywhere when you setup your iPhone?
You can find the answers in their terms of service, assuming you've read them all.
It is not corporate worship, it is their service that you're agreeing to.
apple doesn't allow for that. They support their own solution, suppress what they don't like (music syncing) and actively interfere with other solutions, even some they wrote long ago.
non-icloud reminds me of the jackling house
> In 1984 Steve Jobs purchased the Jackling House and estate, and resided there for a decade. After that, he leased it out for several years until 2000 when he stopped maintaining the house, allowing exposure to the weather to degrade it.
You can do some of it with image capture/files to read raw DCIM stuff, carddav/caldav, but that stuff may or may not work.
I am just saying what a normal person would do not a HN or tech user would do.
> They literally deleted his personal photo's from his phone without his consent. They didn't even ask. If he'd actually signed up for it, then sure, in that case they're offering a desired service. That's clearly not the situation though.
Except it is not 'deleted', it is on iCloud, it is your choice for this to be temporary or permanent.
Again, every Apple account has 5GB of iCloud for free, it has always been like this and even the author knows it.
The real problem is that the author accepted Apple's terms without even knowing or reading the terms like most people do. By using the iPhone he agrees to their ToS.
I know this because the terms of service shows up you setup the iPhone and when you update the iPhone OS.
But i'm sure you and him have read every line in most Terms of Service right?
Common sense is when your users use their device to take a photo, and have not explicitly signed up for your extra (off device) "backups", then you do not ___delete their files___ from their actual storage location.
It is common sense for normal people when using these devices.
Even the author doesn't want to move.
> Will this change my behavior in any way? I already don’t buy most apple products, precisely for the “walled garden” reason. I have this iPad and that’s it. I’ll try to not buy more.
So here is what is going to happen tomorrow, next week, next month and next year:
Nothing.
The author will continue to use the iPad and move on with his life.
> Common sense is when your users use their device to take a photo, and have not explicitly signed up for your extra (off device) "backups", then you do not ___delete their files___ from their actual storage location.
There's this nice config option that you enabled that stores originals in iCloud, and removes them from your device to save storage space. I think it is called something like 'Optimize Storage'.
So, you enable an option to not eat up all your storage and have the originals stored in iCloud, iCloud gets a new TOS, and you complain your originals are 'held hostage'? riiiiiight. I mean, it's doing what you told it to do.
This is an embarrassing take. You put money in the bank to save the trouble of keeping it under your mattress, now you go to a branch and they say you need to sign a new contract before you can take back your money. Fair?
accepting the update TOS is not the same as signing a new contract.
But yeah, a lot of stuff is constantly blocked behind: accept the new terms before continuing.
You can just read the TOS if it is that big of a deal to you. They aren’t that long. Probably twenty minutes of reading.
People don’t do that because the terms basically say “you can use the service if you act normal. In the context of providing the service we may do any number of things a normal person would expect us to do.”
Reading them isn’t a good use of tim because most people using the service were going to act normal. But we collectively forced them to make the terms this long by suing companies when the terms weren’t clear and by deciding that the letter of the law matters more than what’s sensible. Accepting long terms of service is just the consequence of our collective decisions.
Anyone dealing with notarization will also recognize the classic "Apple Is Holding My CI Pipeline Hostage Until I Accept Their New Terms of Service".
Now add in the fun of “I manage multiple Apple accounts for relatively non-technical entities who I have to poke periodically to sign the new terms”.
Just went through this yesterday. And often my main contact at a company is not the same as the person who can sign the agreement so there is yet another person I need to reach out to.
But heck, even at my company, I don’t control signing that agreement and so I have to bug someone higher up to do it. It’s such a PITA. I curse Apple every time my CI fails due to this.
The only thing I hate more is enterprise signing, literally landlines everywhere.
To be fair, people can get phones and install a FOSS OS on it, that's pretty easy, it's sad that Apple does this, but I would expect the same thing on Windows or practically any commercial provider, nothing is really surprising here.
It actually surprise me how many Linux users that do care about their security & privacy just seem to apply poor judgement when it's about their mobile devices, sure, you might not get the LATEST phone but who cares? Why are people trading their values and expertise the moment they touch the latest Samsung or iPhone? What's so special about them anyway, there is literally alternatives (or just vibe code it) for most softwares on it.
You can't install FOSS on most phones.
Indeed, that's why it's important to vote with your wallet. Buy a phone from a manufacturer/program like Sony's Open Devices (<https://opendevices.sony.net/>) rather than, say, Apple.
The Pixel devices are a good option as well.
I think it's one of the last remnants of "don't be evil" at Google -- the Pixel devices are quite friendly toward alternative installs, much more so than most manufacturers.
And, now that Motorola and Graphene OS have announced a partnership, future Motorola devices may be a good option as well.
Is there any updated list of all these devices? They should be my next one. These are not available in Greece and the one it is is 1720 Euros. Big ouch!!!
It is unfortunate that Rapsberry Pi 5 got that expensive because I wanted a Keyboard 500+ just for running some Foss Android Distribution (not a phone replacement)
There is a list of 'device-sony-[codename]' repositories on Sony's Xperia development GitHub (<https://github.com/sonyxperiadev>), if need be you can cross-reference those with the devices listed on the LineageOS website (<https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/#sony>, interestingly LOS calls the XZ2 Compact the xz2c, when Sony calls it the apollo).
Never heard of this, sounds good thanks for sharing it
Because they've made it a huge pain in the ass ?
And you often miss out on (for some) essential features like WiFi calling
Since when do Linux users care about something being a huge pain in the ass?
As a Linux user… you have a good point
Not a lawyer but it can potentially be argued that the T&C were signed under duress and therefore void.
You agreed to allow them to change the terms the first time you agreed
Not even their lawyers believe that for a second. If they did, they wouldn't have had to ask you to reaccept.
Yes, they’re allowed to make changes and you can either accept them (the matter being discussed here) or refuse them. But you do need to be given the option.
This is the dark pattern of "upload everything and delete the local copies" laid bare.
This is possible to override, of course. But it's not the default, so only the most tech-savvy users make use of the settings that keep your videos and photos local.
All in service of getting you to pay for iCloud storage when your phone starts to contain more data than they offer for free (5GB, which is laughable in 2026).
My phone came with 256 gigabyte of storage.
One also has to wonder if people actually regularly go through thousands of pictures...
That 5GB basically means you get free backups of your iPhone.
For photos you need to upgrade.
Wow my timing for buying a NAS and strong-arming my family to upload all of their stuff there was perfect it seems! I literally bought it a couple months ago, exactly because I was expecting to get locked out of either my account or my photos at some point
> there was perfect it seems! I literally bought it a couple months ago
I am sorry to tell you but the perfect timing was 8 - 12 months ago before the price of components shot up.
As someone with 8 empty bays in a NAS I bought a month ago, I feel this in my bones.
Thanks! I've noticed...
>They upload the pictures to iCloud even though I didn’t sign up.
Many a celeb has been bitten by this one, Apple is 100% evil for doing it. I guess they just do it for lulz? Odd for one of the richest companies on earth
Also anecdotal, but I’ve had iCloud Photos explicitly disabled for nearly a decade and it has never toggled on accidentally. (Even through getting several new devices.)
Maybe the issue is that it gets enabled by default if you haven’t had an account before?
"If you have ~~one~~ tech-company-cloud backup, you have no backups"
tl;dr: stop using the cloud; local-host (see <http://old.reddit.com/r/datahoarder>)
----
I was recently gifted a MacPro6,1 (2013-2016 RIP) [<$], perhaps among Apple's most elegant [computer?] product designs, ever.
It has replaced three other machines, and its "obsolete" 6-core Xeon is more than capable of being a fantastic local fileserver (and upgradable!). It's still able to run a ©20twenty-something operating system (2021? iirc), so even the latest macOS releases can screencast into and fileserve from it. It's native and not cobbled-together mess [0].
[<$] I have no official connection with them, but have been a very happy customer of <http://eshop.macsales.com> (et.al.) for decades – they sell this model for a few hundred dollars, with a short-term warranty (to determine stability) – don't get the D700s, they reputation is flakeyAF – if I hadn't been gifted this phenomenal & "obsolete" machine, I would now purchase one
[0] e.g. native USB3 support (via Thunderbolt2/3 adapter); no OCLP hackintoshing (neat_but_cobbled.gif)
----
Of course having spinning HDDs isn't possible inside of this "trashcan" MacPro, but adding an external 4-bay Terramaster (hotswappable) has given me the 24TB fileserver I've always dreamed of... which allowed me to finally retire my MacPro5,1 [•] entirely from the macintosh ecosystem (now a Linux cryptominer/node, only when heating is otherwise on).
[•] The MacPro6,1 with an external hard disk is infinitely more usable than a MacPro5,1 – doesn't require any OCLP and is very very stable/interactive. In my usagecase, I have used four networked spinning platters to replace eight (and removed two other machines entirely from network). This is approximately a 250W continuous load removed from a residential environment, equivalent to your refrigerator running (all the time)
I moved my photos to self hosting so I’m in control. I’ve seen enough stories to worry about losing them with Apple. Google and Amazon are using them however they please.
Apple has a fix for that. Background uploads from apps like Immich are tied to how often you open the app. So if you’re not constantly opening the app you rely on for sync, it’ll silently fail and you won’t notice. So 3rd party apps feel unreliable when compared to Apple’s solution.
Apple, Google, and Microsoft act like ransomware gangs when it comes to photos. I hope we see the day where all 3 get split into a thousand different companies.
Edit: I just checked and my photos stopped syncing 14 days ago. Thanks for the garbage Apple!!
Take some ownership. Use Shortcuts to make a cron job to open the app daily. Voila, done and on to the next outrage.
I have a monthly recurring task in my task manager to open the Dropbox app on my iPhone and leave it in-focus for a couple of minutes while it uploads the previous month’s photos.
If I don’t do that, then it just won’t upload them.
I gave up on real time synchronization and I just do manual periodic bulk downloads. In my case using google takeout, but I'm sure Apple lets you do the same thing.
File a GDPR request to have a download provided to you? Seems pretty simple fwiw.
Not that I agree with the practice of rug-pulling, but "hostage" is a strong term.
Conversion sounds too soft and they probably have an army of lawyers to argue that it's not somehow not technically Conversion in $jurisdiction. "Theft by extortion" is probably better since they are saying agree to the terms or your computer isn't yours, your files aren't yours.
[dead]
How does Apple’s spunk taste
We've banned this account.
We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48074043 and marked it off topic.
Why are you following me around like a lost dog?
[dead]
[flagged]
This is a website mainly targeted towards adults, you are allowed to use the word "kill" without fearing a ban or censorship.
> This is a website mainly targeted towards adults, you are allowed to use the word "kill" without fearing a ban or censorship.
So we should "Kill" a CEO because you cannot temporarily accept a ToS to backup your photos and move to another platform?
Wild.
> Apple is committing extortion
The 5GB is also free so how is this extortion?
> but a class action suit or an organised protest may raise awareness.
It won't, just don't use Apple devices.
The comment you are replying to did not say we should kill a CEO, it said we are adults and if we are talking about killing a CEO we should use the word kill and not some self-censored euphemism.
Still, that particular conversation trail is still bewildering in and of itself when talking in the context of a terms of service.
It is a statement which isn't considered normal.
I mean:
"Apple is committing extortion", " class action suit", "protest", "Luigi the CEO"
All because of a terms of service, this isn't normal behavior for a mind to wander into if the solution is to accept the "terms of service".
I'm having a hard time understanding where the miscommunication is. What I'm saying is: not allowing a user to access their pictures without accepting a change in the terms of service is bad. A renegotiation of terms of a contract when one party has all the power (Apple, who has the pictures the user took and the user cares about) is inherently unfair and it should be just as easy for the user to say 'I don't agree, give me back my pictures and I'll stop using your service' as it is to say 'I agree and will keep using your service'.
It is why I'm not buying the Steam Controller, you need a user account, software running in the background and you need to accept the terms and services of Valve before you are able to use it. That is just unacceptable to me. Other controllers don't have all that.
Yeah, if SC Controller adds support for the Steam Controller 2, I'll be more inclined to get it.
EDIT: Though I read that the SC2 works like a regular controller if you just plug it in without Steam, so at least that's positive.
So accept the terms?
accept all cookies. Yesss! download the app! I would love to hear about your new feature. Yes, I'd love to ask your new AI assistant <weird-unique-name> for help!
> I never paid for Apple’s iCloud service so I am a little surprised that not only were my pictures uploaded, the local copy was deleted.
no worries, apple can do what microsoft did.
Why are you being weird?
> I never paid for Apple’s iCloud service so I am a little surprised that not only were my pictures uploaded...
Yes?
Apple’s iCloud service provides 5GB for free?
> Apple’s iCloud service provides 5GB for free?
That seems a lot like: "You're going to be using our service, whether you like it or not!"
Pretty uncool?
They've also turned their "cloud service" on after I turned it off multiple times.
And I'm not even avoiding it because of data hostage fears, just because I don't understand it and thus I can't trust it.
At some point when using the device, he accepted the terms of service, so Apple turned on the 5GB of storage for free.
If you don't like this, you can backup your device and move to Android or use a camera.
Seriously? Where does Apple ask if you want to use the cloud storage separately and explicitly?
Does it say we will delete files from your device and move them to our “cloud storage” without involving by your choice or asking for confirmation” anywhere when you setup your iPhone?
Stop with the corporate worship please.
> Seriously
Yes.
> Does it say we will delete files from your device and move them to our “cloud storage” without involving by your choice or asking for confirmation” anywhere when you setup your iPhone?
You can find the answers in their terms of service, assuming you've read them all.
It is not corporate worship, it is their service that you're agreeing to.
I don't make the rules here.
[dead]
So it is uncool that Apple provides a service for backing up your photos even if they are providing 5GB for free.
Got it.
Let's hope that your phone won't be part of the 70 million smartphones that get lost each year and your photos aren't backed up.
I strongly prefer not to have my personal data stored on other people’s computers.
Get a camera then?
How does a normal person get the same service as iCloud for their personal device while syncing _all_ their photos, app data to it?
apple doesn't allow for that. They support their own solution, suppress what they don't like (music syncing) and actively interfere with other solutions, even some they wrote long ago.
non-icloud reminds me of the jackling house
> In 1984 Steve Jobs purchased the Jackling House and estate, and resided there for a decade. After that, he leased it out for several years until 2000 when he stopped maintaining the house, allowing exposure to the weather to degrade it.
You can do some of it with image capture/files to read raw DCIM stuff, carddav/caldav, but that stuff may or may not work.
What are you on about? Why is this trigging such weird hatred in you?
They literally deleted his personal photo's from his phone without his consent. They didn't even ask.
If he'd actually signed up for it, then sure, in that case they're offering a desired service. That's clearly not the situation though.
How is common sense hatred?
I am just saying what a normal person would do not a HN or tech user would do.
> They literally deleted his personal photo's from his phone without his consent. They didn't even ask. If he'd actually signed up for it, then sure, in that case they're offering a desired service. That's clearly not the situation though.
Except it is not 'deleted', it is on iCloud, it is your choice for this to be temporary or permanent.
Again, every Apple account has 5GB of iCloud for free, it has always been like this and even the author knows it.
The real problem is that the author accepted Apple's terms without even knowing or reading the terms like most people do. By using the iPhone he agrees to their ToS.
I know this because the terms of service shows up you setup the iPhone and when you update the iPhone OS.
But i'm sure you and him have read every line in most Terms of Service right?
> How is common sense hatred?
It's literally the opposite of common sense. :(
Common sense is when your users use their device to take a photo, and have not explicitly signed up for your extra (off device) "backups", then you do not ___delete their files___ from their actual storage location.
> It's literally the opposite of common sense. :(
It is common sense for normal people when using these devices.
Even the author doesn't want to move.
> Will this change my behavior in any way? I already don’t buy most apple products, precisely for the “walled garden” reason. I have this iPad and that’s it. I’ll try to not buy more.
So here is what is going to happen tomorrow, next week, next month and next year:
Nothing.
The author will continue to use the iPad and move on with his life.
> Common sense is when your users use their device to take a photo, and have not explicitly signed up for your extra (off device) "backups", then you do not ___delete their files___ from their actual storage location.
That is called a digital camera.
> It is common sense for normal people when using these devices.
Again, I think you're very wrong.
It seems to be how you think, but not many others.
You are weird
Does it constitute acceptance to do something because your data was held hostage?
Saying your 'data is being held hostage' is very overdramatic.
The solution is to accept the terms, and move on.
If you don't like Apple, backup your photos and move to Android.
Come on.
There's this nice config option that you enabled that stores originals in iCloud, and removes them from your device to save storage space. I think it is called something like 'Optimize Storage'.
So, you enable an option to not eat up all your storage and have the originals stored in iCloud, iCloud gets a new TOS, and you complain your originals are 'held hostage'? riiiiiight. I mean, it's doing what you told it to do.
This is an embarrassing take. You put money in the bank to save the trouble of keeping it under your mattress, now you go to a branch and they say you need to sign a new contract before you can take back your money. Fair?
accepting the update TOS is not the same as signing a new contract. But yeah, a lot of stuff is constantly blocked behind: accept the new terms before continuing.
[dead]
You can just read the TOS if it is that big of a deal to you. They aren’t that long. Probably twenty minutes of reading.
People don’t do that because the terms basically say “you can use the service if you act normal. In the context of providing the service we may do any number of things a normal person would expect us to do.”
Reading them isn’t a good use of tim because most people using the service were going to act normal. But we collectively forced them to make the terms this long by suing companies when the terms weren’t clear and by deciding that the letter of the law matters more than what’s sensible. Accepting long terms of service is just the consequence of our collective decisions.
This is actually a good use of an LLM, get it to scan the legalese for you and look for anything unusual.