I've noticed that ALL the devices I plug into my UPSes have external power bricks. Most of them are either 5V, 12V, or 19V
So, I replaced all my UPSes with LiFePO4 batteries supplied by Victron AC->12V chargers. Routed the battery contacts directly to all devices that consume 12V (WiFi AP, network hubs, SLA 3d printers). Used 12V -> 5V adapters to supply 5V / USB2 devices (R-Pi servers). For 19V, Drok DC-DC boost converters work great.
Result: threw away 3 UPSes (different APC models). Overall power consumption with AC present dropped by about 40%. Time on batteries (same Wh battery capacity) increased by a factor of about 20 (yes, 20 times: that's not a typo). Evidently, AC waveform generation is extremely power-hungry
I toyed with this too, but I guess I have a slightly more diverse set of devices than you do. A few more weird voltages, and some things that expect mains. I looked into finding a DC version of their power supplies (e.g. the pico-box X9-ATX-500 to replace a conventional ATX PSU, tracking down DC versions of network switch hot-swappable PSUs from eBay) but decided it wasn't worth it. I just bought a stock LifePO4 power station. I found that I got most of the benefit just from switching to LifePO4 rather than from avoiding DC->AC->DC, and it was cheap and easy.
I would be curious to see how LifePO4 power stations compare.
* These power stations are better than conventional (lead-acid battery) UPSs in the sense that they're cheaper, more flexible, have dramatically longer battery life, and require battery replacement less often.
* ...but I haven't seen any that claim to be "line-interactive" or even say specifically when they fail over (other than a total power cut). They do talk about how long it takes to fail over: older models are >20ms (long enough that your machine will probably reboot); many newer ones are <10ms. I'm not sure how high-quality their sine wave is when on battery.
> Our previous reticence to measure UPSs was centered around the connection of our very nice $50,000 Rohde & Schwarz MXO58 oscilloscope directly to mains power. [...] What we do have is a Chroma 61507, a programmable AC power source, capable of generating its own isolated Alternating Current(AC) signal. The AC signal created by the Chroma 61507 is galvanically isolated from the "earth"/ground, providing a floating source.
This too seems to be a pretty expensive piece of gear (the price I found with a quick Google was >$28,000) so I think it's worth mentioning that the same job could be done with an isolation transformer, which costs maybe a couple hundred bucks.
For such low frequency stuff, it feels way safer to just buy a cheap <$500 scope for this kind of work. Using a $50k scope when it's not needed just seems needlessly risky.
Also, float the DUT, not the scope... Sometimes that's not possible, and the temptation is there, but it's really not worth it. Just buy the right gear like a diff probe. You can get one for a few hundred bucks if you don't mind going downmarket.
You can also use two probes and do CH2 - CH1. (Disconnect the GND clips!)
Curious - what actual real life issues do real world people encounter with dirty AC waves? Like I always hear the proverbial "this could cause harm to electronics" but are there real world tests of electronics failing? Does it fail over time or because of a one time instance? Same thing with under/over voltage.
‘It lets the smoke out’ is a classic, and happens periodically. Bad waveforms cause weird heating issues, (literal) audio noise, and sometimes sporadic stability issues with computers.
It typically shows up ‘randomly’ unless you know how to attribute it.
its a shame that we don't have mainstream dc ups standards (telcos are their own niche). its kinda silly to generate fancy sinewave, manage transitions, and maintain phase of ac just to get immediately converted to dc.
There's not much to standardize, basically just pick a plug shape for your desired voltage and current, it's really about building enough desire for manufacturers to take interest.
Issue is mostly lack of standard dc power distribution standards - outside of old telco ones anyway.
It’s cheap and easy (relatively) to transform AC voltages, and hence to manage AC power distribution. DC is trickier, and voltage switching is relatively more expensive and flakier. Hence why DC distribution tends to be within a device/controlled setup.
Please just buy a pair of mains voltage diff probes. They're not expensive (around $500 each new, much less used) and they will eliminate the crazy connection scheme and give you true input -> output fidelity.
I've noticed that ALL the devices I plug into my UPSes have external power bricks. Most of them are either 5V, 12V, or 19V
So, I replaced all my UPSes with LiFePO4 batteries supplied by Victron AC->12V chargers. Routed the battery contacts directly to all devices that consume 12V (WiFi AP, network hubs, SLA 3d printers). Used 12V -> 5V adapters to supply 5V / USB2 devices (R-Pi servers). For 19V, Drok DC-DC boost converters work great.
Result: threw away 3 UPSes (different APC models). Overall power consumption with AC present dropped by about 40%. Time on batteries (same Wh battery capacity) increased by a factor of about 20 (yes, 20 times: that's not a typo). Evidently, AC waveform generation is extremely power-hungry
I toyed with this too, but I guess I have a slightly more diverse set of devices than you do. A few more weird voltages, and some things that expect mains. I looked into finding a DC version of their power supplies (e.g. the pico-box X9-ATX-500 to replace a conventional ATX PSU, tracking down DC versions of network switch hot-swappable PSUs from eBay) but decided it wasn't worth it. I just bought a stock LifePO4 power station. I found that I got most of the benefit just from switching to LifePO4 rather than from avoiding DC->AC->DC, and it was cheap and easy.
I would be curious to see how LifePO4 power stations compare.
* These power stations are better than conventional (lead-acid battery) UPSs in the sense that they're cheaper, more flexible, have dramatically longer battery life, and require battery replacement less often.
* ...but I haven't seen any that claim to be "line-interactive" or even say specifically when they fail over (other than a total power cut). They do talk about how long it takes to fail over: older models are >20ms (long enough that your machine will probably reboot); many newer ones are <10ms. I'm not sure how high-quality their sine wave is when on battery.
The capacitors in your PSU's rectifier have to float through 8.333ms interruptions every. single. cycle.
20 milliseconds is barely distinguishable from a single 60 Hz sine wave period. 10 milliseconds just over half a cycle.
Cool graphs.
> Our previous reticence to measure UPSs was centered around the connection of our very nice $50,000 Rohde & Schwarz MXO58 oscilloscope directly to mains power. [...] What we do have is a Chroma 61507, a programmable AC power source, capable of generating its own isolated Alternating Current(AC) signal. The AC signal created by the Chroma 61507 is galvanically isolated from the "earth"/ground, providing a floating source.
This too seems to be a pretty expensive piece of gear (the price I found with a quick Google was >$28,000) so I think it's worth mentioning that the same job could be done with an isolation transformer, which costs maybe a couple hundred bucks.
Agreed.
For such low frequency stuff, it feels way safer to just buy a cheap <$500 scope for this kind of work. Using a $50k scope when it's not needed just seems needlessly risky.
Also, float the DUT, not the scope... Sometimes that's not possible, and the temptation is there, but it's really not worth it. Just buy the right gear like a diff probe. You can get one for a few hundred bucks if you don't mind going downmarket.
You can also use two probes and do CH2 - CH1. (Disconnect the GND clips!)
Curious - what actual real life issues do real world people encounter with dirty AC waves? Like I always hear the proverbial "this could cause harm to electronics" but are there real world tests of electronics failing? Does it fail over time or because of a one time instance? Same thing with under/over voltage.
Capacitive touch screens when plugged in with cheap chargers to crappy waveforms, behave weird.
‘It lets the smoke out’ is a classic, and happens periodically. Bad waveforms cause weird heating issues, (literal) audio noise, and sometimes sporadic stability issues with computers.
It typically shows up ‘randomly’ unless you know how to attribute it.
its a shame that we don't have mainstream dc ups standards (telcos are their own niche). its kinda silly to generate fancy sinewave, manage transitions, and maintain phase of ac just to get immediately converted to dc.
There's not much to standardize, basically just pick a plug shape for your desired voltage and current, it's really about building enough desire for manufacturers to take interest.
It's worth noting that there's already ATX power supplies that are built to run directly off battery power. They don't look all that impressive but they exist. https://www.powerstream.com/DC_PC.htm https://synoceantech.com/index.php?page=lotinfo&lot=36
Issue is mostly lack of standard dc power distribution standards - outside of old telco ones anyway.
It’s cheap and easy (relatively) to transform AC voltages, and hence to manage AC power distribution. DC is trickier, and voltage switching is relatively more expensive and flakier. Hence why DC distribution tends to be within a device/controlled setup.
Testing the output of some UPSs from around the office. Checking out the results and finding avenues for further exploration.
Please just buy a pair of mains voltage diff probes. They're not expensive (around $500 each new, much less used) and they will eliminate the crazy connection scheme and give you true input -> output fidelity.