Since a few folks here recommended Common Lisp to me as the language that would "tick all my boxes", I've been doing a deep dive. Right now, I'm working through SICP again with DrRacket. The first time I worked through it with MIT Scheme MANY years ago. It's shocking how much I've forgotten.
What I like about this article is that it walks through the different "camps" of Lisp. Scheme is so intriguing to me because of how small it can actually be. I can build nearly any paradigm I want to exist. The problem is, if I were to actually go find a job where they were using a Lisp, (I hear those actually exist) they wouldn't want to use my "Result monad + match statement - railway pattern" that I've used from OCaml and Rust. So learning something that is truly "common" can make more sense.
As far as learning though, Scheme feels "just right". I've imposed a "no AI until I've found a working solution" rule that keeps my mind engaged. Couple that with a willingness to say, "I don't know that right now... I'll think about it throughout the day and maybe by this evening I'll have an answer".
For me the complete spec is the killer feature. You can learn Common Lisp in 1990 and write it the same now. As long as we can keep the compilers alive it will be forever.
It’s funny to me that it was critiqued for being “bloated” when now it looks like a focused minimal library.
I also might have written the Common Lisp example using reduce as well, which is in the standard library, but that's preference. Nice to have the option though:
I have a work-in-progress called Modus. 100% written by Claude, so take that however you will. The current release boots on a Raspberry Pi Zero 2 W. The next release (unreleased in the pipe for ~ months) is standard Common Lisp on bare aarch64 (pi) and x64 (qemu for now), with linux aarch64 and x64 command line interfaces à la sbcl.
Since you can't use an OS by itself, I've rounded out the Common Lisp environment with portable ssh client and server, web browser, and a bitcoin node. Framebuffer with VNC in the pipe
I really wanted to Lisp as a main programming language, and sometimes I still do.
I just find readability such a hurdle regardless of how long I used it. I didn't find that it ever became as natural as the other group of programming languages.
I find a procedural style of programming so much easier to reason about, both when writing and reading.
Either way, I'm really happy I took some time to learn it and use it a little at some point.
For me, the most effective way to read Lisp is to essentially forget the parentheses (I shadow them out in matching, low contrast colors) and go almost entirely by indentation. I find this makes it more similar to reading other languages, though granted not exactly the same.
You do have to keep up with the parentheses of course, but editor settings or extensions can make this automatic if not invisible.
Elisp::Emacs as AutoLISP::AutoCAD. AutoLISP was my first introduction to Lisp-style language. When I first started using it (1987) for macros in AutoCAD, I really had no idea what Lisp was. It was just a fun and easy way to automate AutoCAD.
(Disclaimer: CL weenie) A decent and balanced writeup IMO. But it should really have contained the following:
Warning about the issues that come with ANSI CL's frozen spec (threads/sockets/unicode/extensible sequences/gray streams/etc... as extensions with a varying amount of support with compatibility layers often available to write portable-ish code, "bolted-on" CLOS never fully integrated) and its various rust spots, not just the good points.
Mention that CL has provisions for gradual typing (with limits) which are exploited by SBCL.
Scheme, obviously, along with the same warning as CL about pain of writing portable code that interacts with the OS (does it have compatibility layers like CL?) amplified by the R6RS vs unfinished R7RS-large mess.
A few words about the build system/third-party packaging situation and alternative implementations.
Since a few folks here recommended Common Lisp to me as the language that would "tick all my boxes", I've been doing a deep dive. Right now, I'm working through SICP again with DrRacket. The first time I worked through it with MIT Scheme MANY years ago. It's shocking how much I've forgotten.
What I like about this article is that it walks through the different "camps" of Lisp. Scheme is so intriguing to me because of how small it can actually be. I can build nearly any paradigm I want to exist. The problem is, if I were to actually go find a job where they were using a Lisp, (I hear those actually exist) they wouldn't want to use my "Result monad + match statement - railway pattern" that I've used from OCaml and Rust. So learning something that is truly "common" can make more sense.
As far as learning though, Scheme feels "just right". I've imposed a "no AI until I've found a working solution" rule that keeps my mind engaged. Couple that with a willingness to say, "I don't know that right now... I'll think about it throughout the day and maybe by this evening I'll have an answer".
For me the complete spec is the killer feature. You can learn Common Lisp in 1990 and write it the same now. As long as we can keep the compilers alive it will be forever.
It’s funny to me that it was critiqued for being “bloated” when now it looks like a focused minimal library.
CL also has pretty much arbitrarily extensible syntax:
- https://sr.ht/~dieggsy/whisper/
- https://dieggsy.com/json-literals.html
And could also be used to build languages, supporting more modern programming paradigms (though yes, I believe Racket does make this easier):
- https://coalton-lang.github.io/
I also might have written the Common Lisp example using reduce as well, which is in the standard library, but that's preference. Nice to have the option though:
I'd have used
instead, looks funkier =)Oh yeah, way more fun :) I just kinda saw CL in the Clojure and was trying to make it look like that.
I have a work-in-progress called Modus. 100% written by Claude, so take that however you will. The current release boots on a Raspberry Pi Zero 2 W. The next release (unreleased in the pipe for ~ months) is standard Common Lisp on bare aarch64 (pi) and x64 (qemu for now), with linux aarch64 and x64 command line interfaces à la sbcl.
https://github.com/modus-lisp/modus
Since you can't use an OS by itself, I've rounded out the Common Lisp environment with portable ssh client and server, web browser, and a bitcoin node. Framebuffer with VNC in the pipe
I wonder if Hylang is still alive.
I really wanted to Lisp as a main programming language, and sometimes I still do.
I just find readability such a hurdle regardless of how long I used it. I didn't find that it ever became as natural as the other group of programming languages.
I find a procedural style of programming so much easier to reason about, both when writing and reading.
Either way, I'm really happy I took some time to learn it and use it a little at some point.
For me, the most effective way to read Lisp is to essentially forget the parentheses (I shadow them out in matching, low contrast colors) and go almost entirely by indentation. I find this makes it more similar to reading other languages, though granted not exactly the same.
You do have to keep up with the parentheses of course, but editor settings or extensions can make this automatic if not invisible.
(Heresy alert. Inb4 homoinconcity)
I do find that most of my lisp skills carry over to JavaScript quite well while allowing me to write imperative functions more fluently.
Prog blocks are pretty good. I wonder if another DSL could be better.
Maybe because Brendan Eich was tasked with "doing Scheme in the browser" before it pivoted to JavaScript.
So many words to say: Scheme.
:)
Perhaps, but Chicken? Guile? Chez? They're all pretty cool.
Another Lisp of note is AutoLISP.
Elisp::Emacs as AutoLISP::AutoCAD. AutoLISP was my first introduction to Lisp-style language. When I first started using it (1987) for macros in AutoCAD, I really had no idea what Lisp was. It was just a fun and easy way to automate AutoCAD.
I had forgotten about this. The last I saw this was 20+ years ago!
(Disclaimer: CL weenie) A decent and balanced writeup IMO. But it should really have contained the following:
Warning about the issues that come with ANSI CL's frozen spec (threads/sockets/unicode/extensible sequences/gray streams/etc... as extensions with a varying amount of support with compatibility layers often available to write portable-ish code, "bolted-on" CLOS never fully integrated) and its various rust spots, not just the good points.
Mention that CL has provisions for gradual typing (with limits) which are exploited by SBCL.
Scheme, obviously, along with the same warning as CL about pain of writing portable code that interacts with the OS (does it have compatibility layers like CL?) amplified by the R6RS vs unfinished R7RS-large mess.
A few words about the build system/third-party packaging situation and alternative implementations.
Related:
A road to Lisp: Why Lisp
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48845209