Worth noting that the artist's impression is... not accurate. Both CD-35 2722 b (the brown dwarf orbiting the primary star) and CD-35 2722 b I (the exomoon orbiting the secondary) should be much closer in size. It is estimated that Jupiter is essentially the largest any gas giant can get; adding more mass will simply increase density and interior temperature until deuterium and lithium fusion and brown dwarfdom, and then at around 80 Jupiter masses, protium fusion and stardom.
Look at Barnard's Star[1], which is actually a fusing red dwarf star: it is not much bigger than Jupiter.
One thing this implies is that the escape velocity of such objects increases linearly with mass, so the surface temperature they can sustain without losing mass increases quadratically with their mass. Massive super-jovian planets can orbit close to their star, limited only by tidal disruption. Some could even orbit within the outer envelope of the star for quite some time.
Yes; I was under the impression that from context it was clear what I was talking about. In astrophysics, to avoid precisely this confusion, the convention is to use the adjective 'massive' when comparing, well, masses, and 'largest'/'smallest' for the dimension of length and its higher powers (radius/diameter/area/volume). For instance:
Correct, but the link for "super jupiter" also goes to something that astronomers are fairly sure is 1.38x the diameter of Jupiter. Much less massive of course. Meaning Jupiter's diameter is not an absolute hard limit nothing can be larger than.
A small dense planet, which orbits a star, is orbited by a larger gaseous moon. It's interesting the discovery is in Chile which has some of the best night skies, a Class 1 on the Bortle scale specifically in the Atacama Desert. Hoping to make it out there one day.
An important phrase from the article to consider before commenting: "This system is somewhat hard to define using Solar-System-based words like ‘planet’ and ‘moon’"
I guess it is more of a derivative of the question: "in which bucket should we put the brown dwarf? Is it a star or a planet?".
The answer is neither of course; but since it is more closely related to stars than to planets, I'm more inclined to call this satellite an exoplanet (instead of exomoon).
That being said it is still a nice finding, way more difficult to discover than "normal" exopanets.
'Planet' comes from the Greek word for 'wanderer' which was very useful for labeling the handful of bright stars that moved through the heavens in a pattern. Then we got to the Space Age and kept calling them (and similar new additions) 'planets' even as we learned far more about them. And immediately there's a problem. Setting aside Pluto (and the Sun), you've still got Mercury on one end (5% of Earth's mass, and smaller than several moons) and Jupiter on the other end (320% of Earth's mass - more than everything else in the solar system put together, and over 1000 times Earth's volume). "Planet" stops being a word you can use with any sort of detail. (Thus the IAU definition battle and Pluto's "demotion".) Astronomers have pretty good terminology for stars, but once you go sub-stellar, the labeling rapidly gets difficult, and for good reason.
> Astronomers have pretty good terminology for stars,
...do they though?
The "proper" terminology says all main sequence stars are dwarves, but nobody calls them all that in practice.
Some astronomers insist on saying "yellow dwarf", but some don't really bother.
In general having the only two kinds of star be "giant" or "dwarf" is contentious, but it's also contentious that there isn't a name for whatever is in the "middle". "Main-sequence star" is a broader category and doesn't apply. They're all "stars", obviously, so that isn't specific enough.
The only decent terminology is for the spectral classes, but those only work as long as you look at spectra. The moment you try to figure out what the theory says those stars would look like as proper 3D objects, things get very messy. You also immediately get the issue that star size and brightness goes O>B>A>F>G>K>M. So... it's alphabetic except it isn't. And C is something completely different and doesn't fit the brightness classification at all.
I believe such organisations tend to do such things very intentionally :-)
About ESO [1]
> We are an intergovernmental organisation established in 1962 supported by 16 Member States (Austria, Belgium, Czechia, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and the United Kingdom), our host country Chile and strategic partners.
So Chile has a distinct status, hence the margin...?
It is from the Moon's perspective. On the visual spectrum the Earth is much larger and more reflective than the Moon. You're looking at something like 40x greater illumination during a 'full Earth' than you get during a full Moon on Earth. Earth is also extremely noisy in the radio spectrum for radio telescopes, while the Moon itself blocks most of all of that out on the far side.
I wonder if this thing in turn has something in orbit around it? At the size I wouldn't surprise me if it had satellites of its own in orbit, leaving open the question of what to call them. (I'm no astrophysicist, is this really possible I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me. What would surprise me is if we could detect them)
“A subsatellite, also known as a submoon, moonlet or informally a moonmoon, is a "moon of a moon" or a hypothetical natural satellite that orbits the moon of a planet”
I had only the vaguest notion up until 15 minutes ago of how these are being categorized, this one is described as either a brown dwarf or giant planet? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoRoT-3b
I really wanna call it a planet. It doesn't orbit a proper star, but if we call similar objects that don't orbit a star at all rogue planets I don't see why not call it just a planet.
this would actually be a planet, based on my understanding of celestial bodies?
moons are natural satellites orbiting planets. this "moon" is orbiting a brown dwarf.
>According to the IAU working definition (from August 2018) an exoplanet can orbit a brown dwarf. It requires a mass below 13 MJ and a mass ratio of M/Mcentral<2/(25+√{621}), or roughly 1/25. This means that an object with a mass up to 3.2 MJ around a brown dwarf with a mass of 80 MJ is considered a planet. It also means that an object with a mass up to 0.52 MJ around a brown dwarf with a mass of 13 MJ is considered a planet
Worth noting that the artist's impression is... not accurate. Both CD-35 2722 b (the brown dwarf orbiting the primary star) and CD-35 2722 b I (the exomoon orbiting the secondary) should be much closer in size. It is estimated that Jupiter is essentially the largest any gas giant can get; adding more mass will simply increase density and interior temperature until deuterium and lithium fusion and brown dwarfdom, and then at around 80 Jupiter masses, protium fusion and stardom.
Look at Barnard's Star[1], which is actually a fusing red dwarf star: it is not much bigger than Jupiter.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnard%27s_Star
One thing this implies is that the escape velocity of such objects increases linearly with mass, so the surface temperature they can sustain without losing mass increases quadratically with their mass. Massive super-jovian planets can orbit close to their star, limited only by tidal disruption. Some could even orbit within the outer envelope of the star for quite some time.
> It is estimated that Jupiter is essentially the largest any gas giant can get
That does not appear to be the case if we mean mass, not diameter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super-Jupiter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoRoT-3b
Yes; I was under the impression that from context it was clear what I was talking about. In astrophysics, to avoid precisely this confusion, the convention is to use the adjective 'massive' when comparing, well, masses, and 'largest'/'smallest' for the dimension of length and its higher powers (radius/diameter/area/volume). For instance:
> the Sun is 3.33e5 as massive as Earth.
But... he literally said in the following sentence that adding more mass does not change size, implying that he is talking about diameter, not mass.
Correct, but the link for "super jupiter" also goes to something that astronomers are fairly sure is 1.38x the diameter of Jupiter. Much less massive of course. Meaning Jupiter's diameter is not an absolute hard limit nothing can be larger than.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAT-P-1b
It also orbits its star in only under 5 days, so a few theoretical visualization/renderings of it would probably be quite spectacular.
Nice charts in this paper that support this thesis
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6525489/
A small dense planet, which orbits a star, is orbited by a larger gaseous moon. It's interesting the discovery is in Chile which has some of the best night skies, a Class 1 on the Bortle scale specifically in the Atacama Desert. Hoping to make it out there one day.
An important phrase from the article to consider before commenting: "This system is somewhat hard to define using Solar-System-based words like ‘planet’ and ‘moon’"
We don't really have that nomenclature. We just recently decided what a planet it for the solar system, and even that is contentious.
I guess it is more of a derivative of the question: "in which bucket should we put the brown dwarf? Is it a star or a planet?". The answer is neither of course; but since it is more closely related to stars than to planets, I'm more inclined to call this satellite an exoplanet (instead of exomoon).
That being said it is still a nice finding, way more difficult to discover than "normal" exopanets.
I thought we’re supposed to call them dwarf planets now. Dwarf star, dwarf planet.
It's a problem of useful/meaningful labeling.
'Planet' comes from the Greek word for 'wanderer' which was very useful for labeling the handful of bright stars that moved through the heavens in a pattern. Then we got to the Space Age and kept calling them (and similar new additions) 'planets' even as we learned far more about them. And immediately there's a problem. Setting aside Pluto (and the Sun), you've still got Mercury on one end (5% of Earth's mass, and smaller than several moons) and Jupiter on the other end (320% of Earth's mass - more than everything else in the solar system put together, and over 1000 times Earth's volume). "Planet" stops being a word you can use with any sort of detail. (Thus the IAU definition battle and Pluto's "demotion".) Astronomers have pretty good terminology for stars, but once you go sub-stellar, the labeling rapidly gets difficult, and for good reason.
Even within stars the layman labels are a bit iffy; it is better to use the stellar classification. 'Dwarf' is badly overused, as is 'giant'.
> Astronomers have pretty good terminology for stars,
...do they though?
The "proper" terminology says all main sequence stars are dwarves, but nobody calls them all that in practice. Some astronomers insist on saying "yellow dwarf", but some don't really bother. In general having the only two kinds of star be "giant" or "dwarf" is contentious, but it's also contentious that there isn't a name for whatever is in the "middle". "Main-sequence star" is a broader category and doesn't apply. They're all "stars", obviously, so that isn't specific enough.
The only decent terminology is for the spectral classes, but those only work as long as you look at spectra. The moment you try to figure out what the theory says those stars would look like as proper 3D objects, things get very messy. You also immediately get the issue that star size and brightness goes O>B>A>F>G>K>M. So... it's alphabetic except it isn't. And C is something completely different and doesn't fit the brightness classification at all.
Planet++
I know this is besides the article and all, but why would the Chilean flag be the only one to have 8px left margin? This is killing me...
I believe such organisations tend to do such things very intentionally :-)
About ESO [1]
> We are an intergovernmental organisation established in 1962 supported by 16 Member States (Austria, Belgium, Czechia, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and the United Kingdom), our host country Chile and strategic partners.
So Chile has a distinct status, hence the margin...?
[1]: https://www.eso.org/public/about-eso/
Obviously, how else would you do it rather than the standard left-margin notation for the host country :)
Exactly. Chile has a special status as host country of the observatory!
Granted, makes sense...
Now I can't unsee it :/
Brown dwarfs fascinate me, they can be at room temperature (range from about 2,800 K down to 250 K (roughly 2,500 °C to -23 °C / 4,500 °F to -10 °F)
You could basically have a bath in a brown dwarf, sure you might not last long, but still...
About time!, I cant wait till we start putting large hardware on the dark side of the moon. That will make JST look like a toy.
The far side of the moon is no more or less dark than the side we see.
It is from the Moon's perspective. On the visual spectrum the Earth is much larger and more reflective than the Moon. You're looking at something like 40x greater illumination during a 'full Earth' than you get during a full Moon on Earth. Earth is also extremely noisy in the radio spectrum for radio telescopes, while the Moon itself blocks most of all of that out on the far side.
I wonder if this thing in turn has something in orbit around it? At the size I wouldn't surprise me if it had satellites of its own in orbit, leaving open the question of what to call them. (I'm no astrophysicist, is this really possible I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me. What would surprise me is if we could detect them)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsatellite:
“A subsatellite, also known as a submoon, moonlet or informally a moonmoon, is a "moon of a moon" or a hypothetical natural satellite that orbits the moon of a planet”
I had to look it up and it is theoretically possible, they could be called sub moons or moonmoon. I'm partial to the name moonmoon personally.
> Instead, it circles a brown dwarf, an object larger than a planet, that orbits the CD-35 2722 star.
Isn't the dividing line between the largest possible gas giants and the smallest brown dwarfs a bit fuzzy?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substellar_object
The definition of a brown dwarf is that there is enough heat and compression for deuterium and/or lithium fusion, but not protium fusion.
The exact model limit is unclear, but the physics modelling is relatively straightforward.
I had only the vaguest notion up until 15 minutes ago of how these are being categorized, this one is described as either a brown dwarf or giant planet? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoRoT-3b
see the Classification header of the page
I really wanna call it a planet. It doesn't orbit a proper star, but if we call similar objects that don't orbit a star at all rogue planets I don't see why not call it just a planet.
Nice result, but I find they are selling it a bit too much. I'd rather call it an exoplanet (orbiting a brown dwarf orbiting a star).
this would actually be a planet, based on my understanding of celestial bodies? moons are natural satellites orbiting planets. this "moon" is orbiting a brown dwarf.
First paragraph:
> The star is being orbited by a brown dwarf, an object too massive to be a planet but too small to be a star.
>According to the IAU working definition (from August 2018) an exoplanet can orbit a brown dwarf. It requires a mass below 13 MJ and a mass ratio of M/Mcentral<2/(25+√{621}), or roughly 1/25. This means that an object with a mass up to 3.2 MJ around a brown dwarf with a mass of 80 MJ is considered a planet. It also means that an object with a mass up to 0.52 MJ around a brown dwarf with a mass of 13 MJ is considered a planet
I nominate Moon 2: Electric Boogaloo.
lol
Obligatory: "your mom"
"Your mom has so much gas she's achieved sufficient mass to begin fusing hydrogen"