Herb Sutter's comment on why it's ok is confusing to me:
> Regarding the use of UB internally: It's okay and if anyone is worried about it the use of UB is benign on the platforms we target (e.g., they don't involve hitting any hardware trap representations for these types)
Isn't the outcome of the UB (ie. whether it will "rm -rf /" or something else) dependent on both the target and the compiler? And the compiler (or future compiler) could plausibly make the assumption that the narrowing to an unpreventable value will never occur and change behaviour because of it?
In LLVM, the result of floating-to-int conversion that is out of range of the int is a poison value, which means you get essentially the full unpredictability of UB.
That said, I'm a little hard-pressed to think of optimizations that would actually take advantage of poison, because floating-point range isn't really computed in the optimizer.
For what it's worth, a GSL developer later reopened that GitHub issue and stated that they're going to look into fixing the UB. Sutter may have just been stating an assumption.
Yes, this is all true but Sutter's comment is that the specific platforms that this specific implementation of the GSL targets results in the correct output. The platforms officially supported are:
There is absolutely no special treatment afforded to the GSL by any of the target platforms. While we can't inspect MSVC's source code, both clang and GCC do not have any support or affordance for the GSL whatsoever and it would be very unusual to expect MSVC's source code to have some kind of affordance for this library.
The 'special treatment' isn't technical, it's procedural -- insofar as if, during development for a new release, MSVC were to land some changes that broke GSL, Microsoft's testing would catch that and ensure that the changes were reverted or fixed to support the latter, prior to shipping. Since they're built as part of the same operating system, they can make sure not to step on one another's toes -- which is not a guarantee that they can make to third-party applications.
That's my point - GSL is NOT MSVC only, it's a general purpose library and NOT a standard library implementation of a toolchain so any compiler is expected to be able to compile it (it also explicitly targets clang & gcc).
At the time Herb made that comment GSL was documented as supporting XCode 12.5.1/13.2.1, GCC 10/11, Clang 11/12, and Visual Studio 2019/2022 using both MSVC/LLVM [0]. Even if MSVC had special support for GSL I'm a bit more skeptical that such support would extend to XCode, GCC, and Clang.
UB is bad not because it actually leads to any particular result on any particular platform or compiler, but because semantically it invalidates assumptions about a program. Rust is explicit on this, but it absolutely still applies to C/C++.
Undefined behavior is not the same as implementation-defined or unspecified behavior. A program with undefined behavior is by definition an incorrect program. But there are cases where the spec actually gives some margin to the implementation. Programs relying on the choices of the implementation may be correct, even if non-portable.
Herb Sutter's comment on why it's ok is confusing to me:
> Regarding the use of UB internally: It's okay and if anyone is worried about it the use of UB is benign on the platforms we target (e.g., they don't involve hitting any hardware trap representations for these types)
Isn't the outcome of the UB (ie. whether it will "rm -rf /" or something else) dependent on both the target and the compiler? And the compiler (or future compiler) could plausibly make the assumption that the narrowing to an unpreventable value will never occur and change behaviour because of it?
In LLVM, the result of floating-to-int conversion that is out of range of the int is a poison value, which means you get essentially the full unpredictability of UB.
That said, I'm a little hard-pressed to think of optimizations that would actually take advantage of poison, because floating-point range isn't really computed in the optimizer.
For what it's worth, a GSL developer later reopened that GitHub issue and stated that they're going to look into fixing the UB. Sutter may have just been stating an assumption.
https://github.com/microsoft/GSL/issues/786#issuecomment-513...
> I'll raise this issue in the next internal GSL sync. I'd agree with y'all that this behavior: https://godbolt.org/z/4Tr1fe9xG is undesirable
Yes, this is all true but Sutter's comment is that the specific platforms that this specific implementation of the GSL targets results in the correct output. The platforms officially supported are:
GCC 12, 13, 14
XCode 14.3.1, 15.4
Clang 16, 17, 18
Visual Studio with MSVC VS2019, VS2022
Visual Studio with LLVM VS2019, VS2022
No, UB is allowed special powers for compiler and standard library implementors, which is what Herb Sutter means with internal behaviour.
Meaning MSVC is aware of these cases, so the compiler has special cases for it.
GSL is not the standard library nor an internal runtime library. Its GitHub page claims that it supports a variety of compilers:
> The GSL officially supports recent major versions of Visual Studio with both MSVC and LLVM, GCC, Clang, and XCode with Apple-Clang
It was originally created by Microsoft and as Herb mentions "all our target platforms", so most likely it gets special treatment.
There is absolutely no special treatment afforded to the GSL by any of the target platforms. While we can't inspect MSVC's source code, both clang and GCC do not have any support or affordance for the GSL whatsoever and it would be very unusual to expect MSVC's source code to have some kind of affordance for this library.
The 'special treatment' isn't technical, it's procedural -- insofar as if, during development for a new release, MSVC were to land some changes that broke GSL, Microsoft's testing would catch that and ensure that the changes were reverted or fixed to support the latter, prior to shipping. Since they're built as part of the same operating system, they can make sure not to step on one another's toes -- which is not a guarantee that they can make to third-party applications.
That's my point - GSL is NOT MSVC only, it's a general purpose library and NOT a standard library implementation of a toolchain so any compiler is expected to be able to compile it (it also explicitly targets clang & gcc).
It was originally created by Microsoft and as Herb mentions "all our target platforms", so most likely it gets special treatment.
At the time Herb made that comment GSL was documented as supporting XCode 12.5.1/13.2.1, GCC 10/11, Clang 11/12, and Visual Studio 2019/2022 using both MSVC/LLVM [0]. Even if MSVC had special support for GSL I'm a bit more skeptical that such support would extend to XCode, GCC, and Clang.
[0]: https://github.com/microsoft/GSL/tree/99a29ce797c8337b8923f2...
UB is bad not because it actually leads to any particular result on any particular platform or compiler, but because semantically it invalidates assumptions about a program. Rust is explicit on this, but it absolutely still applies to C/C++.
Hopefully this will be part of UB fixes for C++29, where plenty of UB is being redefined as erroneous behaviour instead.
How could it be defined behaviour, when the result is different on ARM and x86?
Undefined behavior is not the same as implementation-defined or unspecified behavior. A program with undefined behavior is by definition an incorrect program. But there are cases where the spec actually gives some margin to the implementation. Programs relying on the choices of the implementation may be correct, even if non-portable.
Architecture dependent is not the same as undefined.
Also, the spec says it’s undefined. But compiler authors can always special-case their own compilers.
The core guidelines library is definitely not doing the right thing here. Very odd.