> Those sanctions were issued in retaliation for ICC investigations into US personnel in Afghanistan and for warrants the court issued against top Israeli officials, including Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, for alleged war crimes in Gaza.
Oh no! An international body is taking action against some of the worst criminals on the planet? I'm glad the U.S. is taking actions to prevent those people from doing their job. America is doing great!
The US withdrew its signature all the way back in 2002, the same year the ICC came into being.
It's only "their job" where they have jurisdiction.
This is like Ofcom trying to require overseas companies/providers to enforce the Online Safety Act.
The ICC doesn't even automatically have jurisdiction of signatory nations either -- it's only when that nation fails to actively pursue prosecutions in their own courts.
ICC and ICJ have different roles. The ICJ's subjects are countries whereas the ICC deals with individuals.
In this case, the ICC has jurisdiction because the alleged crimes were committed in the territory of a signatory (Palestine) and because Palestine indeed found itself unable to prosecute them.
> The US withdrew its signature all the way back in 2002.
Yeah, I guess international law was rather incompatible with their ambitions at the time. Fair play to them though, they certainly made the most of it.
"international law" should be incompatible with the interests of all people support freedom, human rights, and democracy. That's because that's what the world isn't and what international bodies represent, the current state of the world.
The thought process went something like if we give the world more of a say that would help push us towards a world with more human rights and freedoms (and fairness and equity). But the actual result has been less human rights and freedoms. This experiment has been a failure and the world is a worst place. Maybe correlation isn't causation but at this point in time free democracies should not be giving up their sovereignty to world organizations.
They aren't? The US government has authority over its borders and assets within them. This is an action that is perfectly legal and enabled by acts of Congress.
It actually has real teeth.
I don't necessarily agree with it either but what do you expect to happen in response to the ICC's action.
The ICC is trying to set a precedent that the US views as against its interests.
Since the US for now controls the non BRICS financial system, any individual we Sanction loses all access to any money they have stored with entities that use computers.
The question isn't whether the US government has power to sanction people, it's whether the Executive has the authority to use that power for this purpose against these entities.
"The bear" (rah rah, bro) is governed by laws. These sanctions are allegedly authorized under e.g. IEEPA and the National Emergencies Act. What's the emergency? Assume that's valid, then what powers are made available to the President in response to that emergency?
It's absolutely not clear at all that this action is "perfectly legal and enabled by acts of Congress."
This admin's last broad interpretation of IEEPA-originating powers was already struck down by SCOTUS.
This admin's last broad interpretation involved doing things that had never before been done under IEEPA. Prohibiting Americans from doing business with designated people based on executive fiat has been an extremely common use of IEEPA for decades, and multiple such long-standing emergencies have nothing to do with a concrete threat to the United States. The status quo is very dumb, don't get me wrong, but I don't think there's a lack of clarity about what it is.
It's really not that clear. For example there are specific procedural requirements, enforcement cannot be capricious or arbitrary, they can't be vague, etc etc
Well many of the countries where the war crimes happened are signatories to the ICC, so that isn't gonna be the problem you think it is.
Also: the US acting as a rouge state is not a power move it is a sign of moral decay, corruption and a critical failure to uphold the principles laid out in its own (wonderfully written!) Declaration of Independence.
It is just sad to see how hollowed out these great ideals have become.
Prefacing that I disagree heavily with the US actions under this admin and a lot with previous admins.
These ideals were always hollow. There is no law between sovereign entities, only martial might and political game theory tactics. It’s why the EU struggles so heavily with tighter integration. None of those sovereign states who are members want to give up the ability to do what they want and be subordinate to another power.
This mentality is exactly why the US is doing this. You've already condemned people without access to any good evidence. Besides, US defense requires the ability to do everything Israel did against Gaza.
There is currently not a SINGLE American citizen under indictment, investigation, or facing an arrest warrant from the International Criminal Court (ICC). The one case tied to US soldiers in Afghanistan was ended.
So why is the US doing this with such intensity right now?
It’s a preemptive attack to prevent accountability for Trump and Hegseth under the next presidency. All of those extrajudicial boat attacks that have been justified by claiming they were smuggling drugs (cocaine imports to the US haven’t dropped at all, BTW) are likely unjustified murders.
This administration attacks any body or authority that has the power to hold them accountable. See: attacks on the judiciary, attacks on the media, attacks on academia, etc.
I think Trump just wants to be able to play golf at his courses in Scotland without being arrested for his decisions to arbitrarily make war however he wants. I honestly think it's that simple. He is a simple man.
I mean, obviously it’s because of the Netanyahu thing plus Trump is probably gonna be on there once he is done plus and I think this is a big one, Putin doesn’t want it around.
The current US administration really doesn't like accountability, and if the judges can't be bought they get mad at them. One day we will be back to normal. I hope I'll be around to see it, the degree to which we are sliding is more than a little bit worrisome.
The relationship between the ICC and the "great powers" is an interesting one. It sort of separates the normal alliances of "west" and "non-west" alliances, and reshapes them into powerful and non-powerful. And it seems this conflict is ongoing.
Apart from Europe, the number large, powerful non-signatory countries is pretty significant: US, China, India, Russia, Iran, Saudi, Egypt, Turkey, Indonesia, and more.
I've always thought it is interesting that the concept of international law is by definition in conflict with the de facto anarchy of international relations. I've always had mixed opinions on the topic, simply because you can look at an institution like the UN, and see that it functions much more successfully as a simple forum than a deliberative body. The idea that somehow we are going to implement something as difficult as a criminal court on an international basis seems... very idealistic. A court like this always seems sensible at first glance, but I'm not sure it can really exist effectively at all over any serious time horizon.
>interesting that the concept of international law is by definition in conflict of the anarchy of real Realpolitik
not 'by definition'. There's a fairly good case to be made that playing by, and being able to set, international norms is in the long term interest of powerful countries. For one because you don't know when you'll cease to be powerful, which will happen given enough time and secondly because even smaller players can cause significant damage when acting without constraint, a lesson several great powers are currently learning for the umpteenth time.
It's very meathead schoolyard bully coded to think that anarchy benefits you just because you happen to be the biggest dude around. It speaks more to the intellect of current leaders than it does to some fundamental contradiction.
I've updated the language there a bit, but the meaning is the same.
>There's a fairly good case to be made that playing by, and being able to set, international norms is in the long term benefit of powerful countries.
Yes, but it doesn't matter. The entire concept of truly sovereign states existing is the point. The second a state wants to leave the agreement, they just stop cooperating. There is no "greater sovereign" with which you can enforce these rules, and if there is -- say, a bigger country invading a smaller country to enforce the rules -- you're once again in a state of war, and none of the rules mattered in the first place.
I think it was sort of meant to be a check on the middle powers: sure, you could do some war / genocide, but we have a legitimately-sounding system of rules by which superpowers can punish you.
In practice, superpowers don't apply these rules consistently because it's sometimes in their geopolitical interest for a subjectively less-bad option to win by any means necessary, and they don't hold themselves to the same standard... so yeah, it does end up being a bit of a fantasy.
Well the rest of the world will dismantle the US hegemony "brick by brick". Not because they want to but because they have to. It may take decades but trust has been lost. The US can't be trusted at any level and investments will adjust to this level like any other unstable state.
Research, investments and talents are all avoiding the US. AI won't save the US economy either as there is no moat as we can all see.
"US Secretary of State Marco Rubio has announced sanctions against the president and a senior lawyer of the International Criminal Court (ICC).
The move is the Trump administration's latest escalation in its campaign to "dismantle" the court which is empowered by more than 120 member countries to investigate war crimes."
The Trump administration is saying the quiet part out loud: they are pro war crimes.
As a European I would want my goverent to summon the US embassador and declare them a persona non grata over this. Then as a next step to work on sanction the US on an EU level like the rouge state it is.
No one is gonna come out and say "we're fascists who commit war crimes" but they spend a lot of time, money and effort fighting against antifascists and people who try to prevent war crimes. The purpose of a thing is what it does.
Everybody in the Trump administration has come out and said that. We’re just so jaded that it doesn’t even register.
Hegseth tells his “warfighters” that they must ignore the Geneva convention. The president goes on social media and threatens the destruction of civilian populations (“an entire civilization will die tonight”) as well as civilian infrastructure (bridges, power plants).
Hegseth himself literally committed a war crime already. Simply declaring no quarter is itself a war crime. On the other hand, it makes both the current SecDef and any 14 year old COD player feel REALLY badass.
Giving your own personnel or enemy personnel the impression you are pursuing a policy of no quarter is itself a war crime.
> Those sanctions were issued in retaliation for ICC investigations into US personnel in Afghanistan and for warrants the court issued against top Israeli officials, including Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, for alleged war crimes in Gaza.
Oh no! An international body is taking action against some of the worst criminals on the planet? I'm glad the U.S. is taking actions to prevent those people from doing their job. America is doing great!
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1d097g2/which_coun...
The US withdrew its signature all the way back in 2002, the same year the ICC came into being.
It's only "their job" where they have jurisdiction.
This is like Ofcom trying to require overseas companies/providers to enforce the Online Safety Act.
The ICC doesn't even automatically have jurisdiction of signatory nations either -- it's only when that nation fails to actively pursue prosecutions in their own courts.
ICC and ICJ have different roles. The ICJ's subjects are countries whereas the ICC deals with individuals.
In this case, the ICC has jurisdiction because the alleged crimes were committed in the territory of a signatory (Palestine) and because Palestine indeed found itself unable to prosecute them.
ICC has jurisdiction in the signatory countries themselves.
> The US withdrew its signature all the way back in 2002.
Yeah, I guess international law was rather incompatible with their ambitions at the time. Fair play to them though, they certainly made the most of it.
"international law" should be incompatible with the interests of all people support freedom, human rights, and democracy. That's because that's what the world isn't and what international bodies represent, the current state of the world.
The thought process went something like if we give the world more of a say that would help push us towards a world with more human rights and freedoms (and fairness and equity). But the actual result has been less human rights and freedoms. This experiment has been a failure and the world is a worst place. Maybe correlation isn't causation but at this point in time free democracies should not be giving up their sovereignty to world organizations.
Over the last two decades: https://ourworldindata.org/democracy
Since when US requires "jurisdiction" for it's actions?
Nice whataboutism.
All UN member states are de facto part of the ICJ. If you have a valid claim against a nation, the proper place to pursue that is the ICJ.
Hate what the US and Israel are doing or not, what the ICC is doing here is entirely political posturing and theater.
Think the ICC is engaged in political posturing and theater all you want, sanctions are not an appropriate tool
They aren't? The US government has authority over its borders and assets within them. This is an action that is perfectly legal and enabled by acts of Congress. It actually has real teeth.
I don't necessarily agree with it either but what do you expect to happen in response to the ICC's action.
The ICC is trying to set a precedent that the US views as against its interests.
Go ahead and poke the bear.
Since the US for now controls the non BRICS financial system, any individual we Sanction loses all access to any money they have stored with entities that use computers.
The question isn't whether the US government has power to sanction people, it's whether the Executive has the authority to use that power for this purpose against these entities.
"The bear" (rah rah, bro) is governed by laws. These sanctions are allegedly authorized under e.g. IEEPA and the National Emergencies Act. What's the emergency? Assume that's valid, then what powers are made available to the President in response to that emergency?
It's absolutely not clear at all that this action is "perfectly legal and enabled by acts of Congress."
This admin's last broad interpretation of IEEPA-originating powers was already struck down by SCOTUS.
This admin's last broad interpretation involved doing things that had never before been done under IEEPA. Prohibiting Americans from doing business with designated people based on executive fiat has been an extremely common use of IEEPA for decades, and multiple such long-standing emergencies have nothing to do with a concrete threat to the United States. The status quo is very dumb, don't get me wrong, but I don't think there's a lack of clarity about what it is.
It's really not that clear. For example there are specific procedural requirements, enforcement cannot be capricious or arbitrary, they can't be vague, etc etc
Well many of the countries where the war crimes happened are signatories to the ICC, so that isn't gonna be the problem you think it is.
Also: the US acting as a rouge state is not a power move it is a sign of moral decay, corruption and a critical failure to uphold the principles laid out in its own (wonderfully written!) Declaration of Independence.
It is just sad to see how hollowed out these great ideals have become.
Prefacing that I disagree heavily with the US actions under this admin and a lot with previous admins.
These ideals were always hollow. There is no law between sovereign entities, only martial might and political game theory tactics. It’s why the EU struggles so heavily with tighter integration. None of those sovereign states who are members want to give up the ability to do what they want and be subordinate to another power.
This mentality is exactly why the US is doing this. You've already condemned people without access to any good evidence. Besides, US defense requires the ability to do everything Israel did against Gaza.
There is currently not a SINGLE American citizen under indictment, investigation, or facing an arrest warrant from the International Criminal Court (ICC). The one case tied to US soldiers in Afghanistan was ended.
So why is the US doing this with such intensity right now?
( My question was rhetorical, you can see in the initial ICC sanctions from the Whitehouse it was all about Israel + Netanyahu: https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/02/impo... )
I know your question is rhetorical, but for the avoidance of doubt: https://www.icc-cpi.int/defendant/netanyahu
It’s a preemptive attack to prevent accountability for Trump and Hegseth under the next presidency. All of those extrajudicial boat attacks that have been justified by claiming they were smuggling drugs (cocaine imports to the US haven’t dropped at all, BTW) are likely unjustified murders.
This administration attacks any body or authority that has the power to hold them accountable. See: attacks on the judiciary, attacks on the media, attacks on academia, etc.
I think Trump just wants to be able to play golf at his courses in Scotland without being arrested for his decisions to arbitrarily make war however he wants. I honestly think it's that simple. He is a simple man.
Then maybe he should write off his Greenland ambitions.
Because Russia likes a de-stabilized world and the current admin is almost a Russian puppet?
This is because of the US's unwavering support of Israel no matter what they do.
You can not blame all of the worlds ills on Russia, seemingly the most powerful and least capable nation at the same time.
I mean, obviously it’s because of the Netanyahu thing plus Trump is probably gonna be on there once he is done plus and I think this is a big one, Putin doesn’t want it around.
Senior officials in the Trump regime know that we may decide to handcuff them and send them to the ICC after democracy is restored.
The current US administration really doesn't like accountability, and if the judges can't be bought they get mad at them. One day we will be back to normal. I hope I'll be around to see it, the degree to which we are sliding is more than a little bit worrisome.
The relationship between the ICC and the "great powers" is an interesting one. It sort of separates the normal alliances of "west" and "non-west" alliances, and reshapes them into powerful and non-powerful. And it seems this conflict is ongoing.
Apart from Europe, the number large, powerful non-signatory countries is pretty significant: US, China, India, Russia, Iran, Saudi, Egypt, Turkey, Indonesia, and more.
I've always thought it is interesting that the concept of international law is by definition in conflict with the de facto anarchy of international relations. I've always had mixed opinions on the topic, simply because you can look at an institution like the UN, and see that it functions much more successfully as a simple forum than a deliberative body. The idea that somehow we are going to implement something as difficult as a criminal court on an international basis seems... very idealistic. A court like this always seems sensible at first glance, but I'm not sure it can really exist effectively at all over any serious time horizon.
>interesting that the concept of international law is by definition in conflict of the anarchy of real Realpolitik
not 'by definition'. There's a fairly good case to be made that playing by, and being able to set, international norms is in the long term interest of powerful countries. For one because you don't know when you'll cease to be powerful, which will happen given enough time and secondly because even smaller players can cause significant damage when acting without constraint, a lesson several great powers are currently learning for the umpteenth time.
It's very meathead schoolyard bully coded to think that anarchy benefits you just because you happen to be the biggest dude around. It speaks more to the intellect of current leaders than it does to some fundamental contradiction.
I've updated the language there a bit, but the meaning is the same.
>There's a fairly good case to be made that playing by, and being able to set, international norms is in the long term benefit of powerful countries.
Yes, but it doesn't matter. The entire concept of truly sovereign states existing is the point. The second a state wants to leave the agreement, they just stop cooperating. There is no "greater sovereign" with which you can enforce these rules, and if there is -- say, a bigger country invading a smaller country to enforce the rules -- you're once again in a state of war, and none of the rules mattered in the first place.
I think it was sort of meant to be a check on the middle powers: sure, you could do some war / genocide, but we have a legitimately-sounding system of rules by which superpowers can punish you.
In practice, superpowers don't apply these rules consistently because it's sometimes in their geopolitical interest for a subjectively less-bad option to win by any means necessary, and they don't hold themselves to the same standard... so yeah, it does end up being a bit of a fantasy.
About a year ago CBCs "About That" show did a 10min segment on the history of the US objections/support regarding the ICC, decent watch if you want a quick recap of the last 24 years: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBW6DOss67w - Also, to a degree, the ICC is somewhat moot to the US directly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...
Well the rest of the world will dismantle the US hegemony "brick by brick". Not because they want to but because they have to. It may take decades but trust has been lost. The US can't be trusted at any level and investments will adjust to this level like any other unstable state.
Research, investments and talents are all avoiding the US. AI won't save the US economy either as there is no moat as we can all see.
D.C is controlled by enemies to humanity and freedom. They openly plan on enslaving the rest of the world to secure their hegemony.
There will be another one. I hope you like the CCP's vision of the future.
I'd rather have no overlord, but between China and the US, the one abusing its power to force deals since the 80s us obviously the worst.
This is not really US doing it, as they would not care less, but Israel by proxy. ICC has never accused the US of anything.
https://archive.ph/kYj3F
"US Secretary of State Marco Rubio has announced sanctions against the president and a senior lawyer of the International Criminal Court (ICC).
The move is the Trump administration's latest escalation in its campaign to "dismantle" the court which is empowered by more than 120 member countries to investigate war crimes."
The Trump administration is saying the quiet part out loud: they are pro war crimes.
There was little doubt after the last 24 months. Even if it wasn't with words they did plenty of deeds that confirmed that.
As a European I would want my goverent to summon the US embassador and declare them a persona non grata over this. Then as a next step to work on sanction the US on an EU level like the rouge state it is.
The criminals are running the show.
No one is gonna come out and say "we're fascists who commit war crimes" but they spend a lot of time, money and effort fighting against antifascists and people who try to prevent war crimes. The purpose of a thing is what it does.
Everybody in the Trump administration has come out and said that. We’re just so jaded that it doesn’t even register.
Hegseth tells his “warfighters” that they must ignore the Geneva convention. The president goes on social media and threatens the destruction of civilian populations (“an entire civilization will die tonight”) as well as civilian infrastructure (bridges, power plants).
Hegseth himself literally committed a war crime already. Simply declaring no quarter is itself a war crime. On the other hand, it makes both the current SecDef and any 14 year old COD player feel REALLY badass.
Giving your own personnel or enemy personnel the impression you are pursuing a policy of no quarter is itself a war crime.
Disgusting