They’re using “traditional search” to mean the shopping specific search widget or page, which is a separate feature from traditional search. It aggregates retailer listings and sorts them by price.
The AI mode is based on normal top search results, which are oriented toward information about the product like the manufacturer’s page, which is usually going to be full MSRP.
So technically correct that the AI mode is not using the price ranking from the separate shopping mode, but the intent of the AI mode is to find information about the search term first and prices second. The intent of shopping mode is to find lowest prices first and not find any information about the product at all.
In my experience, shopping mode will show a lot of low prices that I can’t actually get because when I get to checkout shipping is $10 higher than anywhere else for some inexplicable reason, or the Google listing was tricked into showing a coupon code that doesn’t work with some exclusion message at checkout. The worst are the sites that show Googlebot a lower price on the indexing pass but then charge regular customers full price when you get there.
In some product areas these tricks are so widespread that every vendor uses them. Search for contact lenses at the lowest price and every single website will have a low price indexed by Google but will add a checkout fee to bring the price back up to full at checkout to cancel out the discount.
I haven’t found shopping mode to actually save me any money other than in a few rare cases. Usually it just wastes my time.
It's not a trick. What you receive as shipping or taxes on google shopping are not the final ones, google doesn't have your full address, neither doesn't have info from the merchant for all taxes (depends on the country) and shipping applied to the product to all possible locations.
I tried “mens cycling helmet specialized” via normal search and AI search.
On the surface, AI showed results of £45 while normal results showed £39.99 and this particular result didn’t show at all in the AI search, even when clicking more.
However, small fine print was the £39.99 had a £4.99 delivery. Can it be that AI is optimised for full price including shipping?
Also, not defending AI, but id gladly install a ublockoriginAI to filter out scam products and low quality knock offs. Would never trust google to do this.
In your example, any helmet by a manufacturer who has zero safety tests, regulatory stamps, warranty, etc, should be filtered out.
Any product with anomalous price needs heavy scrutiny.
GP included the word “specialized” which is a reputable manufacturer. Without seeing anything else, I’d automatically be inclined to believe that any helmets sold by them has warranty and safety tests.
Yes, I feel this is like when I look for a hotel and see a low price through a sketchy website but it is because it is a non-refundable member-only price. I wonder what the actual click through prices are. Sellers might try to serve higher prices to AI models but I'm not sure that would be useful to them.
Yeah and I know one issue with this is that sites like Amazon tend to have greater protections against scraping from AIs, so there is not much AI providers could do if they wanted to find the true lowest price.
The general implication is the opposite effect. The corporation wants to make more money. They make larger margins with this of course. But beyond that, the implication is that whatever sales are lost from the more expensive price are simply made up otherwise. If products are 20% more expensive but this only results in 10-15% less sales, the corporation is still very happy, particularly due to the margin bit. If loss impact is worse, they’ll usually retune how the product is ‘pitched’ in order to allow for this marginal boost.
So are companies paying more to have products featured in AI mode rather than just plain search?
It sucks that Google seem to be phasing out plain search - for some specialized searches it ONLY gives me AI mode results, which are useless, and I have to go to Bing instead.
It's clearly part of the AI endgame that conversational AI output will sell an undisclosed promoted slant where possible. The money will not be left on the table. Regulation effectively no longer exists.
I wish that purchase/shopping search engines were entirely separate and removed from general search engines. "are you searching for information or are you shopping?"
when I'm searching for information, so often results are just flooded with pricing from sellers.
It's crazy how getting the best deals online is still a unsolved problem. Google product page was garbage even before AI, most aggregators are a complete farce as well, either displaying deals that are out of date or completely unrelated items, and let's not even get started with price tracking...
You'd think of all the companies, Google would be the best one to come up with a good solution for deal hunting but no...
I guess it's in no company's interest for consumers to get the best deals...
> It's crazy how getting the best deals online is still a unsolved problem.
Not actually. Good deals are usually compensatation or a symptom of market forces. Additional costs in the form of marketing, advertising or risk aversion (bad or new vendors) are just some of the reasons that good deals exists.
The next question I'd ask is what the quality / reliability signal looks like. It is entirely possible that the results differ, but the organic search results are SEO'd garbage that lead to knock-offs, fell-off-the-trucks, or refurbs-sold-as-new.
But nonetheless, the fact they differ at all is an intriguing result.
They’re using “traditional search” to mean the shopping specific search widget or page, which is a separate feature from traditional search. It aggregates retailer listings and sorts them by price.
The AI mode is based on normal top search results, which are oriented toward information about the product like the manufacturer’s page, which is usually going to be full MSRP.
So technically correct that the AI mode is not using the price ranking from the separate shopping mode, but the intent of the AI mode is to find information about the search term first and prices second. The intent of shopping mode is to find lowest prices first and not find any information about the product at all.
In my experience, shopping mode will show a lot of low prices that I can’t actually get because when I get to checkout shipping is $10 higher than anywhere else for some inexplicable reason, or the Google listing was tricked into showing a coupon code that doesn’t work with some exclusion message at checkout. The worst are the sites that show Googlebot a lower price on the indexing pass but then charge regular customers full price when you get there.
In some product areas these tricks are so widespread that every vendor uses them. Search for contact lenses at the lowest price and every single website will have a low price indexed by Google but will add a checkout fee to bring the price back up to full at checkout to cancel out the discount.
I haven’t found shopping mode to actually save me any money other than in a few rare cases. Usually it just wastes my time.
It's not a trick. What you receive as shipping or taxes on google shopping are not the final ones, google doesn't have your full address, neither doesn't have info from the merchant for all taxes (depends on the country) and shipping applied to the product to all possible locations.
I tried “mens cycling helmet specialized” via normal search and AI search.
On the surface, AI showed results of £45 while normal results showed £39.99 and this particular result didn’t show at all in the AI search, even when clicking more.
However, small fine print was the £39.99 had a £4.99 delivery. Can it be that AI is optimised for full price including shipping?
Also, not defending AI, but id gladly install a ublockoriginAI to filter out scam products and low quality knock offs. Would never trust google to do this.
In your example, any helmet by a manufacturer who has zero safety tests, regulatory stamps, warranty, etc, should be filtered out.
Any product with anomalous price needs heavy scrutiny.
GP included the word “specialized” which is a reputable manufacturer. Without seeing anything else, I’d automatically be inclined to believe that any helmets sold by them has warranty and safety tests.
There's a blocklist for ublockorigin, but I can't really recommend it. It's a bit over-zealous and sometimes blocks useful stuff.
Link: https://github.com/laylavish/uBlockOrigin-HUGE-AI-Blocklist
At least in a few examples it looks like it is surfacing the manufacturers page, and then random 3rd parties have it cheaper, which is pretty commmon.
Yes, I feel this is like when I look for a hotel and see a low price through a sketchy website but it is because it is a non-refundable member-only price. I wonder what the actual click through prices are. Sellers might try to serve higher prices to AI models but I'm not sure that would be useful to them.
Yeah and I know one issue with this is that sites like Amazon tend to have greater protections against scraping from AIs, so there is not much AI providers could do if they wanted to find the true lowest price.
I wonder if Amazon will lose enough sales to more bot-friendly vendors that they’ll notice this and do something about it?
I think it's a good thing if this forces manufacturers to list honest prices instead of inflated ones.
Then again, that makes it more expensive for the inconspicuous buyer who has no idea, which is a considerably larger population than HN readers.
Sure but in my own experience, the cheapest seller often means you are setting yourself up for headache if anything goes wrong.
It's easy to envision a parallel story about AI recommending sketchy vendors with no protections.
Hey, that's actually a pretty useful feature if it helps discourage people from buying so much stuff!
The general implication is the opposite effect. The corporation wants to make more money. They make larger margins with this of course. But beyond that, the implication is that whatever sales are lost from the more expensive price are simply made up otherwise. If products are 20% more expensive but this only results in 10-15% less sales, the corporation is still very happy, particularly due to the margin bit. If loss impact is worse, they’ll usually retune how the product is ‘pitched’ in order to allow for this marginal boost.
So are companies paying more to have products featured in AI mode rather than just plain search?
It sucks that Google seem to be phasing out plain search - for some specialized searches it ONLY gives me AI mode results, which are useless, and I have to go to Bing instead.
It's clearly part of the AI endgame that conversational AI output will sell an undisclosed promoted slant where possible. The money will not be left on the table. Regulation effectively no longer exists.
I dislike when unjustifiable precision in a headline is used to try to give some credibility to a defective analysis.
Finding the cheapest price for a product that isn’t fake is a completely unsolved problem and the entire premise of this is ridiculous
My guess is that there are two different teams working on these.
I've also had issues with severely out of date product results.
I wish that purchase/shopping search engines were entirely separate and removed from general search engines. "are you searching for information or are you shopping?"
when I'm searching for information, so often results are just flooded with pricing from sellers.
It's crazy how getting the best deals online is still a unsolved problem. Google product page was garbage even before AI, most aggregators are a complete farce as well, either displaying deals that are out of date or completely unrelated items, and let's not even get started with price tracking...
You'd think of all the companies, Google would be the best one to come up with a good solution for deal hunting but no...
I guess it's in no company's interest for consumers to get the best deals...
> It's crazy how getting the best deals online is still a unsolved problem.
Not actually. Good deals are usually compensatation or a symptom of market forces. Additional costs in the form of marketing, advertising or risk aversion (bad or new vendors) are just some of the reasons that good deals exists.
It's worse.
It's in Google's interest to auction ad spots at the highest price.
That's it.
Nothing else matters. The content needs to be vaguely legal, the quality or any other product feature doesn't matter.
Another platform, Facebook, makes about 10% of its income from scams. No manager or executive will willingly reduce their company's income by 10%.
Am I the only one who's noticed "AI Mode" is dario's last name? A(mode)I?
Thank you for your time this evening.
Excellent work as always, Kojima
That is interesting.
The next question I'd ask is what the quality / reliability signal looks like. It is entirely possible that the results differ, but the organic search results are SEO'd garbage that lead to knock-offs, fell-off-the-trucks, or refurbs-sold-as-new.
But nonetheless, the fact they differ at all is an intriguing result.