I wish there was some regulation that would force TVs to have a "dumb" mode. When the colors on our previous living room TV started to go out my dad ended up buying a new huge Vizio during black friday for really cheap. He left it to me to set up, since I'm the tech guy of the family, as you all probably understand.
I was surprised that the first thing I was prompted to do was to download an app and sign up for an account. The TV would not work unless I was signed in (or at the very least the option was so well hidden I didn't see one). Of course the sign up asks for PII like my name and phone number.
Vizio was bought out by Walmart a while back, with the intent of expanding Walmart's advertising empire.
It's really unfortunate that the TV market has ended up the way it has. My family still has a few CRTs going that have been working every day for decades, just turn it on and TV immediately starts playing. I miss that level of simplicity.
I was surprised that the first thing I was prompted to do was to download an app and sign up for an account. The TV would not work unless I was signed in
I missed the part of your comment where you put it back in the box and returned it.
(Yeah, I know, understandable reasons. But that's exactly what I would do if it were going in my house.)
The problem is for TV manufacturers to change their ways, a lot of TVs will need to be returned.
And your average Smart TV buyer is prepared to sign into Netflix, Disney+, Hulu, Prime Video, Crunchyroll, Youtube etc - that's the whole point of buying a smart TV. The only returns will be from the minority who are happy to sign up and sign in for streaming services, but who balk at one more account.
Personally, I'm about to return a smart TV (because it sucks) and replace it with a dumb screen. But realistically - I don't imagine these things get returned in sufficient numbers for vendors to change their ways.
> your average Smart TV buyer is prepared to sign into Netflix, Disney+, Hulu, Prime Video, Crunchyroll, Youtube etc
I think this is starting to change a bit especially as companies crack down on password sharing. Once the dam breaks, there's gonna be a pretty drastic and unstoppable migration towards the "dumb" TV products + more open alternatives. I'm already seeing a lot of families start to move to DVDs and Blurays for kids who just watch the same 5 movies on repeat anyway.
This migration is already happening away from Windows. Gaming was the big moat that Windows had but now with Steam Proton and better Linux alternatives, a ton of people are starting to move away and while it's not a significant majority yet, I think the tides have already turned and there's not much Microsoft can do to turn it back.
I think we won't get meaningful change until a data broker gets hacked and a huge number of people (including elected officials), have their data on display for all to see.
Just as food has warnings (too much sugar, too much salt, etc), so electronics should be labelled: "requires online registration" and "captures conversations" and "scans your network".
I have a pretty nice Samsung that I purchased maybe 5 years ago. When I initially purchased it, it was great. No account needed. Did every thing I wanted from a TV (I want it to be dumb)
I refused to update it, because I knew that at some point they would add mandatory accounts or other bloatware. Fantastic for 2 years or so.
My gf started living with me and updated it accidentally/didn't know. It now has it's own entire OS that requires 2 accounts - a Google account and a Samsung account, I believe. Devastating.
Mandatory accounts for everything. Forcing people to download certain applications. Turning off functionality if there's no subscription to X or Y. I feel we really started to take a step back for software usefulness in the late 20teens...
Network jail isn't a 100% for these -- in their testing, they determined that they could connect to the public Comcast networks that Comcast tries to blanket areas with. So even if you don't let it access your own networks, it will look for other ways to phone home.
> Alternatively, you can get an Apple TV and keep the TV off networks or in network jail.
The problem is that a lot of TVs won't even let you use it that way without signing in or downloading an app first. My Vizio wouldn't do anything until I acknowledged a terms of service screen. The only way I could do that was by downloading the Vizio app and connecting it to my network.
> I was surprised that the first thing I was prompted to do was to download an app and sign up for an account. The TV would not work unless I was signed in (or at the very least the option was so well hidden I didn't see one). Of course the sign up asks for PII like my name and phone number.
The only solution we have to this is to return the TV as defective and buy something else until you find something that works without an account or an app. A sane country would have regulations that make spying on you illegal but our government works for corporations instead of the public so they'll never protect us when there's money to be made off of us.
> our government works for corporations instead of the public
Yes, but we cheat ourselves out of change with learned helplessness. Did you see how much hatred the business community directed at Lina Khan when she started dusting off the old antitrust machinery? That happened recently. It can happen again. It was on the ballot, and it will be again.
Yes, I saw that too, it was quite remarkable. Still, learned helplessness would have us believe that such an appointment was impossible and yet it happened, and it happened in a Democratic party that leaned "more lib than left" to an even greater degree than it does today, or will in 2028.
So when the billionaires twirl their moustaches and say "Silly kids! You can't possibly defeat me, why do you even try?" (or, more realistically, sponsor a lackey to promote that message) one should try to have at least as much gumption as a child facing down a cartoon villain who recognizes this as smack talk rather than deep philosophical truth. The progressives of 100 years ago faced down the first round of Robber Barons and won. We've done this before and we can do it again.
Even if every single person who wants dumb TVs bought a smart TV and returned it as defective, I doubt it would even be a noticeable increase to the number of defective TVs returned.
This is one of the many reasons I haven't owned a TV for the last 5 years. I just watch stuff on the computer, or not at all. It's actually nice not having it looming over me.
blackout shades go a long way, but if you’ve got huge bay windows that’s probably too much.
If it’s close to good, and you need a little more brightness, there are newer screens that reflect much more light. more reflective = pricier, but there’s a decent value/sweet spot.
LG recently was in the news for loading Microsoft's utility/driver update mechanism with crapware that auto installs (by default) when you hitch one of their monitors to a Windows PC. I fear they just haven't gotten around to fully abusing monitor users yet.
There is no obligation to be truthful when it comes to providing PII for advertising. Register using a throwaway email. If an app install is mandatory, use an android emulator (set an uuid if needed). Ideally, the tv won't have ongoing internet access beyond what's required for initial setup. If not possible, at least use PiHole or similar to block telemetry.
My research is a few months old, but at the time Vizio looked like the least bad option, largely because a lawsuit had pushed them to narrow what they collect.
The Koreans are taking a huge risk destroying the trust they've built over the last 30 years with this incessant spying and adware. Both LG and Samsung are engaged in this and it could open the door to Chinese rivals like TCL and HiVision. Not because they're much better but because discoveries like these will leave a bad taste in people's mouth whenever they want to buy a new TV.
They need to put a stop to this or they'll start losing market share fast.
Can this spying and tracking be so lucrative that they'll risk alienating their customers over it?
They all use Automatic Content Recognition (ACR) and collect profiling data to feed into an Ad service offering.
Samsung started this and is now a leading supplier for targeted advertising on TVs (because old serialized TV doesn't have such an option), this is forcing all the brands to follow and do the same, because:
#A: it creates a revenue stream based on active devices (like Apple/Google has), not just at the time of sales, and
#B: their business partners now demand it (big electronics chains won't sell a TV which will affect their targeted ad promotions)
It would be much more valuable to have proper journalists (sorry) to write an investigative report on this whole Ad-targeting industry, to create pressure not just on some TV-vendors but on all home appliances (including cable-company set-top-boxes, which do exactly the same btw).
The only way out of this is to increase public pressure to the point that a regulation (a LAW!) is drafted and enforced.
I just recently learned about ACR. My first thought was to set up an LG TV in the basement and stream non-stop p0rn for 3 months or so. Then see what ads start showing up for me. Like, I wonder if there's a target group called "Creeps addicted to p0rn."
just to clarify: ACR is actually not taking a screenshot, it calculates a fingerprint of the picture and sends it to a server.
The fingerprint is then checked against a database of some common content, to understand whether you're watching some Movie/Series on DVD/BluRay or with an external set-top-box.
Not sure if porn is even fingerprinted in that database, would probably be 100% more fingerprints... /s
This spying is even more prevelant in Korean cars, too. Really sad, because they can be a decent enough product (no worse than any other cheap car) but they are very anti consumer and burning their reputation.
Not because they're much better but because discoveries like these will leave a bad taste in people's mouth whenever they want to buy a new TV.
It ain't just TVs. Now that I've found out that my Hyundai is not only spying on me, but snitching to the insurance company, I might just take South Korea companies off my list for anything.
Taken literally, you’re claiming that only 80 people on Earth would notice. Maybe a tenth of that if we narrow down what is meant by «consumer». I assume you don’t really believe that?
> How is this not a gigantic fine from the EU for some kind of GDPR reason
The underlying "research" is unfortunately not that clean, but I'd say for two reasons:
1. Because looking at the LG ToS alone, it seems that the devices do MUCH more data-collecting outside Europe
2. GDPR is covering your personal information (WHO you are) and personal identifiable information (data that can be used to infer WHO you are). In a nutshell: If a device (a TV, a phone, a car, a Smart Home device, whatever) collects information to PROFILE you, without collecting data about WHO you are, they are not violating your privacy. The company needs to be VERY careful about not accidentally collecting identifiable information, but as long as this doesn't happen, it's within GDPR.
That said, a proper technical write-up of the issues found, with an investigation by a professional journalist would be very helpful to get things going, put proper pressure where it needs to be and dismantle this Ad network business-model of all those TV-manufacturers (Samsung Ads, LG Ads, TCL Ads, Hisense Ads,...)
I am not sure about other products. But I have noticed that Samsung phones started putting most toggles off by default (toggles for collecting data). So the GDPR slowly seems to have some effect on different products.
(A few years ago, you definitely had to opt out of data collection.)
Because it's technically opt-in. And AFAIK the the checkbox is more explicit in Europe and they probably do a bit ore to comply with GDPR. US is a free for all mostly when it comes to abusing consumers through contrived and unfair ToS agreements.
The terms of service in Europe [0] are actually very different to those in US [1], I wouldn't be surprised if the behavior within the EU is within EU GDPR regulation.
GDPR "only" covers your personal information (and personal identifiable information) anyway, it doesn't cover data used to profile you (e.g. the time of day the TV and the hours a TV is switched on is technically not personal information)
Either way, case in point: Check this hilarious statement in the US ToS:
"6. I understand and agree that Voice Information may, for the purposes set out above, be transferred to and processed in other countries (including Korea), some of which may not offer the same level of data protection."
Also, this one in the US ToS:
"9. I understand that this Smart Media Product is a household device. If this Smart Media Product will be used by more than one person, I represent that, in addition to agreeing to this Agreement, that I have obtained consent from all other members of my household whose information may be collected through this Smart Media Product and am providing consent on their behalf."
vs. Europe ToS:
"I understand and agree that Voice Information is generally handled by LGE in such a way that members of your household are not identified or identifiable from that information. Please be aware that this means that if several members of your household use Smart Media Product services we may not be able to distinguish you and your personal information from members of your household and those members may be able to see information (including some personal information) you have generated through use of Smart Media Product Services."
in the US. My LG TV has put up a giant TOS agreement thing and I can't use any apps until I agree. So I unplugged the ethernet cable and bought an Apple TV. problem solved?
For now. I wouldn't surprised that if enough people start doing this, they'll just put a cheap cellular modem in the TV. Or find open access points. Or make a deal with Amazon and others to exfiltrate information via a smart home speaker/assistant.
Technical solutions only go so far, at some point you have to put in place a regulatory framework that requires consent. The divergences between US-EU privacy policies, configuration screens, etc. show that the GDPR is slowly starting to do its work.
What LG (and Samsung and all the other electronics companies) are doing is profiling the user to sell targeted advertising. This is technically not personal information, and that's a grey area for those companies when communicating to the public.
People here generally don't like to hear that, but Apple is doing the very same. There's even a study-paper on how they do this without collecting personal information [0]
So when a company yells out how it's not collecting your "personal information", the statement actually doesn't cover what has been discovered here from all I can decipher from this "research"
Pihole has worked reasonably well upto this point, however the web is catching up, lots of sites that use Admiral refuse to work with piehole running.
I suspect it will only be a matter of time before hardware manufacturers wise up and prevent you from using the TV if you block their ad network traffic.
The smart answer would be to figure out the expected payload of the devices and send a dummy one that tricks the TV into thinking its phoned home, I suspect.
LG for large parts of the product series use WebOS, which was the OS of the shortlived attempt by Palm to compete in the smartphone market with iPhone, which then changed hands a bit till landing there.
Me too. I was hoping for a better write up than a pay walled verge article. Yes I'm being lazy but this is hn and I like technical break downs and not just moral panic. I own an older lg tv and I'm not dismissing the societal issues.
> Is there anyone who has done a technical write up and investigation into the firmwares?
I extracted the firmware and filesystem of a webOS 3.5 and webOS 24 TV previously so I could remove the spying bits and get an internet connected TV back. I asked Claude Opus 5 to do some analysis on the ACR implementation yesterday. I haven't had time to check it myself, so it might give some insight but take it with a grain of salt. Also because I'm not entirely sure I extracted the complete filesystem for the webOS 24 TV.
See the documents temporarily hosted here [1][2][3]. You can find the Markdown originals in the HTML source. The Markdown has also been pasted here [4] (although the forum software has sometimes inserted a lot of tildes).
LG uses the "Alphonso SDK" for ACR, a company which it seems to have a majority stake in [5].
WebOS itself is actually pretty neat once you get root on the device. It still has open source releases, uses a well documented service bus, the UI apps are unobfuscated Javascript. It's a genuine Linux TV if only LG allowed you to get root and would not install spyware by default. Secure boot unfortunately does prevent you from messing with the boot process.
If you want to know anything specific, let me know. There's also a pretty active Discord (ugh) community here [6].
Personally, I'm most interested whether LG and other device manufacturers are getting informed consent for ACR in European markets, and what the consent screen looks like. I doubt that many consumers actually know what they're consenting to, which might be a GDPR violation.
It even goes both ways: you can geolocate the user, and you can sell the BSSID data for future lookups. Not sure how valuable that still is in 2026 now that every mobile phone is adding that to the Goople databases, but it was in the past.
> In July this year, the channel flagged that some LG monitors were automatically installing an app that collected device data and ran pop-up ads for LG’s other apps and even McAfee antivirus. The public pressure from that video prompted an intervention from Microsoft, and ultimately led to LG disabling the pop-up ads.
Can anyone explain why Windows even makes this possible? I had to fight against Windows installing Alienware command center nonsense automatically because I have a "gaming" Dell OLED. Windows automatically fetched and installed it just from plugging in the monitor, adding a new system tray icon and persistent daemon with these kinds of annoying pop-ups and probably a bunch of security vulnerabilities.
It's completely incomprehensible to me. The monitor works great without it, on both Windows and Linux! I left a negative review on an otherwise good monitor as a result, but Microsoft shouldn't even be entertaining this crap.
> Can anyone explain why Windows even makes this possible?
Because, as much as we nerds might hate it, it's convenient to a large number of people. They plug in their device and the companion software to fully use all its features just installs itself. They don't have to go to some obscure URL and then locate their exact product. Even in the case you've described, the software likely enables some features of your monitor that aren't accessible otherwise. You don't care about them, but someone might.
The intention is to allow for automatic installation of software that is actually needed for the function of the peripheral - think proprietary cameras or non-standard printers/IO/etc. It's not a bad goal, but it leads to manufacturers abusing it, unsurprisingly, for things that are not, in fact, necessary.
I largely don't use Windows anymore, but there is an option buried under Advanced System Settings/Properties under the hardware tab called Device Installation Settings. There you can turn this off (marked 'not recommended').
I know about this because I have a Windows 10 VM that was automatically installing an old broken Radeon driver through it that would just leave me with a black screen on boot. I also learned that if Microsoft got the scent of the driver and started downloading it turning this option off didn't stop that particular driver from continuing to download and hosing the install. Since I lacked a snapshot before this I had to reinstall the the entire OS in the VM with the GPU not passed through and then turn the option off first.
this feature probably began life as "automatically download necessary drivers to make installation easier" and then after some massaging the definition of "necessary drivers" expanded to "anything the manufacturer would like to see running on this PC regardless of how necessary it is for the device to function".
Windows downloads the driver first, then the driver itself uses an AddSoftware directive to install a companion app. Which is ok when the app is a GPU control panel or similar, but here it was clearly abused.
Probably just never give it internet access and plug in an HTPC with some form of Linux (I've heard KDE's Plasma Bigscreen is better than ever, though I haven't tried it myself)
Some TVs will present a popover warning that they have not been able to check for updates for a while, after being disconnected for some time, and you can't close that without letting them connect (even if you are just using the screen to display content from an HDMI slot rather than using any of the other TV features).
FWIW, I've never seen that come up on the five or six TCLs that I've owned over the last decade. I have AppleTVs connected to all of them and never connect them to the internet. So far, so good.
Good to know. I don't buy Samsung anymore anyway. I have two CRG9s and they're already showing same problems after a couple of years. Had a midrange phone from them some years ago - started dying 6mo in (battery, restarts, slowness).
I wonder if this is firmware related. I've had a Samsung TV for a few years now that I've never connected to the internet, so my firmware is likely very out of date, and it has never displayed a message like that.
Do they still do it if they've never been connected to a network? So they don't even know what date/time it is relative to their current updates/firmware? Do they display the warning based on a cumulative power-on timer only (much as good quality computer displays have somewhere in their menus buried a figure showing their total cumulative power on hours).
Not sufficient, given reports of TVs and other devices automatically creating mesh networks. Your disconnected TV could talk to your neighbour's connected one. If anything, I wonder why LG isn't already doing it.
Edit: Getting pushback asking for evidence (fair). Most recently I read it in an HN thread a few years back. I thought it was a TCL TV, but I can't find it anymore. It wasn't Samsung's WiFi Direct, which I don't think was ever on by default.
Lacking better evidence, I'll admit I'm probably wrong and no TV has been documented doing this (yet).
> Our Samsung fridge’s manual says it’ll automatically and silently mesh network with any Samsung TVs in range, use AI and hidden cameras to recognize what’s in the fridge and when we use it, then have the TV inject targeted ads into programming based on its findings. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45742208
Or (speculating on the future, not present):
> they'll develop some common mesh local network that'll grab data through any gateway. Imagine your tv connecting to some wireless headphones which have multipoint feature enabled and connected to a smartphone which has wifi, tv sends encrypted data to buds, buds to phone and phone to some external source. Ofc it can be more sophisticated but totally doable and plausible.
Or imagine some localized automesh based on zigbee/matter-> you have a philips hue lamp connected to wifi, tv connects to it and it forwards data... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46374855
If something is technically possible, one should act as though it is already happening and hope to be wrong rather than refusing to consider the issue until sufficient “proof” is given, by which it will be too late. Doubly so when advertisers are involved, who as a group are economically-incentivized to not care about consent.
This would be trivial to test and detect. Just like every claim that TVs will connect to open WiFi networks if you don't connect them to a network. Yet after years of these claims and being extremely trivial to test not a single shred of evidence has ever been provided.
There's no requirement that the mesh be IP-based or function as a layer-3 router...
Even if it were IP-bsaed, it would be extremely straightforward for one box to send a UDP message to another, and receive and retransmit at the application layer. No TTL nonsense, No multiple IPs showing up communicating upstream.
Isn't messing with TTLs a pretty obvious thing to do when communicating covertly? And wouldn't that kind of packet inspection only catch cases of TVs literally acting as packet-level routers, but not catch application-layer shenanigans like aggregating statistics in the exit node so that all the data going over your own network appears to be originating from the same device?
It's still implausible, but thoroughly verifying that your TV isn't spying on you isn't trivial.
This seems paranoid. There are many things which are technically possible, but there is no evidence of some super-advertiser doing. It's not even clear to me that much of the 'fingerprinting' (past basic re-targeting) actually works.
> This seems paranoid. There are many things which are technically possible, but [...]
Isn't this what people said pre-Snowden? Not that NSA spying is the same as corporate "surveillance capitalism", but if companies can make more money off it and the technology exists, it seems prudent to assume companies are trying it.
There was evidence of the NSA intercepting international communications before Snowden, but for some reason that didn't seem to make much of a lasting impression: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A
It's also significant to note that while the government is quite bad at keeping 'problematic' behavior secret, companies are much worse at it.
Analogously, there's evidence that companies will make extensive use of available techniques (browser fingerprinting, cookies, etc.) to track and surveil users without their knowledge and often against their will. The exposure of that arguably also hasn't triggered an effective backlash against those companies. So, as with the pre-Snowden evidence for domestic communication interception by the NSA, I think there's ample evidence of the willingness of companies to exploit whatever technologies they can in order to surveil users.
The way this is typically handled is through compartmentalization, where no one working has enough of a global view to be able to claim that the behaviour is problematic.
There's a lot that's problematic that we suspect that is going on but don't have firm proof, because the organization actually is pretty good at keeping it secret enough. There's some exceptions where things do get leaked/revealed, but how would you know if this was 99% of wrongdoing, or 0.99% of it?
That is an article saying that mesh networking frameworks exist. It does not support the GP claim of smart TVs creating mesh networks across different owners.
I’ve heard rumors of that, and also of TVs shipping with cellular modems with which to phone home. I don’t know if either have been confirmed, but it would be ridiculous for such a thing to be legal.
It's a longstanding, and obviously false, rumor. It would be trivial to prove that these things connect to open wifi networks to phone home, but no one has ever proved that they do that, because they don't actually do that. It would be a little harder, but still very easy, to prove that they connect to cell networks, but no one has proved that they do that either, because they don't actually do that either.
Keeping them disconnected from wifi is sufficient.
It’s perfectly legal to put a cellular modem in a TV, but not without disclosing that to the FCC and on product labels. This and the mesh network thing for TVs are (currently) a conspiracy theory, which sucks because it muddies the waters in advance of it inevitably happening in reality.
Cellular modems seem unlikely, because both they and the service plan they'd need are too expensive to be justified by any benefit to the manufacturer.
Cell plans are very cheap when you are a company looking for low bandwidth off-peak service for a lot of devices. As individuals you can't get those deals, but companies can.
I don't know if TVs have a cell modem, but it isn't unreasonable to say they could.
As a different poster mentioned, the FCC needs to know about this though and so it will be documented.
Not so far fetched when your advertising revenue is in the tens of millions of dollars.
They just need this revenue by tv to be higher than the price of the mobile plan per tv. For a few Gb per month it may be relevant in the not so distant future.
Yes. Considering 90%+ of users will just connect their TV to their WiFi, shipping a cell modem with every TV to catch that last 10% seems like bad ROI.
I could however see this happening in the future in response to regulation. For example some "think of the children" rule that makes TV makers responsible for blocking mature content.
That's not really sufficient. It could still phone home if it falls back to IP addresses. You should be blocking it at the firewall level, not just with DNS.
But me personally, I wouldn't ever connect any of these devices to my network.
Firewall rule that prevents the tv from accessing the internet (by mac address if using dhcp, or set a static ip for the tv). Or stick it in separate quarantined IoT subnet with your devices.
It’s still scanning (or at least listening to) all the other devices on your local network, like your phones, PCs, etc. It collects an inventory and if it ever happens to get Internet access, uploads that data.
That's why you put IoT crap into an isolated vlan with its own ssid, enforce device isolation for that ssid across all WAPs, and enforce isolation on the vlan level with your switches to cover any hardwired devices.
Then they are not smart TVs anymore. More precisely, they couldn't offer the features one expected from such. Think about a smartphone without internet connection.
Does this mean that TVs can never be recycled or resold now, adding to the garbage problem? All you have to do is sell the TV to someone who does eventually connect it to the internet and it will upload all the data it acquired while the previous owner had it?
What's the incentive for these manufacturers to do this?
Are they getting paid for the data (e.g. we'll pay you $100M to install spyware), or are they trying to be an ad platform, or is it simply analytics gone out of control?
Get get to make money off of you for the rest of your life. They'll sell ads to companies, and they'll sell your data to anyone willing to pay enough for it.
XFinity has some bullshit where your router provides an AP for other XFinity members.
My understanding is that it uses bandwidth you aren't paying for to carry this signal rather than using up what you paid for, but still it's been there for something going on ten years.
I was about to switch carriers anyway, that was the kick in the butt I needed to make the call and schedule an appointment.
Some parts of these organizations are aware that some of their rent comes from inertia. Other parts don't realize that they are providing the impulse to overcome that inertia.
I don't mean to be dismissive, but isn't this old news? Hasn't it been the case that _all_ "smart" TVs have been spying on users since they came out? I've personally operated as if they are: my TV is not connected to the internet. At least, not through my internet connection. It's not on my wifi, nor is it connected to my LAN.
A real problem is that you might not even need to give these internet access. If your neighbor gives their TV internet access and it can establish a mesh connection then it might be able to exfiltrate data that way. I don't know of any TVs that do this, but it's always been a possibility.
Another possibility is even if you don't give it access to your wifi, if you eventually give your TV away or sell it, the new user could connect it to wifi and if it has any persistent storage then it could upload all of its stored data about you at that point.
Companies that do this need to end their entire brand, because they're just helping the CCP.
This is straight up dystopian level spying. Streaming microphone inputs all the time, knowing everything that is displayed on the screens via object recognition and stuff. Scraping your local network. If I’m not mistaken there is the possibility for the tv to connect to public/open networks to send this stuff without you knowing. Magically syncing with your phone. It’s truly terrible, and a class action is all but guaranteed to come. Gamers nexus has a great video on this.
We knew they were reporting back our watching habits of the built-in stuff. Then we learned they were doing video capture on HDMI ports to report back on what we watched on external sources (Xbox, Apple TV, etc). Then we learned that they did botnet-like stuff in the background even when they were switched off.
NOW we're learning that they're spying with their internal microphone when switched off.
Reminder that smart TV ids are part of California's DROP platform, and that you can (and should) request that all registered data brokers delete data associated with your television.
Which NEC commercial display do you have? How do you like it for normal TV duties? What tradeoffs were you willing to make when you bought it compared to the features which were available in consumer-focused "smart" TVs?
MultiSync P495, with the additional daughter card for the RPI CM4.
As far as regular TV duties, the CM4 running libreELEC does everything I need and then some. The HDMI-CEC was flaky at one point, but from my research on it regular consumer TVs suffer from the same problem. If anything I'm more limited by the CM4's output, less the display itself.
Tradeoffs: I wanted to control my stack with minimal cabling pretty much everything else be damned, and this was a nice integrated solution and a excellent alternative to just buying a 43" dell monitor to hang on my wall. There are probably some image processing "features" that videophiles can comment on, but I've been used to literal decades of LCDs at this point, so an IPS display is going to be just fine(tm). Display lag is a bit higher than I would like for retro video games on it, but that's more an overall LCD problem, less a specific display issue.
In functionality it's much closer to a computer monitor than it is to a TV. The menus are obtuse, brutalist even, but if you ever had to work in IT and set up a conference room display you will feel right at home.
It's also a heavy pig compared to consumer televisions, right on the edge of what my mount is able to hold, and not really great to wrangle in a position by your lonesome, but not impossible either.
As for video: It's more than fine. Maybe the pixels are bigger than my macbook's screen, but at 6+ft viewing distance with my eyesight, I can't tell.
They're usually sold as Sharp in the states, but the model numbers are the same, etc. As an old fogey of a nerd it's neat to have a NEC-branded remote/screen when I sit down to watch a movie.
Are you confused between TVs selling your viewing habits using automated content recognition (which they all do and is well documented), vs TVs finding nefarious ways to still upload that data even after disabling network access? Because the latter is conspiracy theories and there's no evidence of it happening (and it would be trivial to verify if it was).
a number of those are Related yes, and/or the original submission that didn't get much discussion, so second submission was it. And this one is a dupe, referencing the source. Same discussion.
I wish there was some regulation that would force TVs to have a "dumb" mode. When the colors on our previous living room TV started to go out my dad ended up buying a new huge Vizio during black friday for really cheap. He left it to me to set up, since I'm the tech guy of the family, as you all probably understand.
I was surprised that the first thing I was prompted to do was to download an app and sign up for an account. The TV would not work unless I was signed in (or at the very least the option was so well hidden I didn't see one). Of course the sign up asks for PII like my name and phone number.
Vizio was bought out by Walmart a while back, with the intent of expanding Walmart's advertising empire.
It's really unfortunate that the TV market has ended up the way it has. My family still has a few CRTs going that have been working every day for decades, just turn it on and TV immediately starts playing. I miss that level of simplicity.
I was surprised that the first thing I was prompted to do was to download an app and sign up for an account. The TV would not work unless I was signed in
I missed the part of your comment where you put it back in the box and returned it.
(Yeah, I know, understandable reasons. But that's exactly what I would do if it were going in my house.)
The problem is for TV manufacturers to change their ways, a lot of TVs will need to be returned.
And your average Smart TV buyer is prepared to sign into Netflix, Disney+, Hulu, Prime Video, Crunchyroll, Youtube etc - that's the whole point of buying a smart TV. The only returns will be from the minority who are happy to sign up and sign in for streaming services, but who balk at one more account.
Personally, I'm about to return a smart TV (because it sucks) and replace it with a dumb screen. But realistically - I don't imagine these things get returned in sufficient numbers for vendors to change their ways.
> your average Smart TV buyer is prepared to sign into Netflix, Disney+, Hulu, Prime Video, Crunchyroll, Youtube etc
I think this is starting to change a bit especially as companies crack down on password sharing. Once the dam breaks, there's gonna be a pretty drastic and unstoppable migration towards the "dumb" TV products + more open alternatives. I'm already seeing a lot of families start to move to DVDs and Blurays for kids who just watch the same 5 movies on repeat anyway.
This migration is already happening away from Windows. Gaming was the big moat that Windows had but now with Steam Proton and better Linux alternatives, a ton of people are starting to move away and while it's not a significant majority yet, I think the tides have already turned and there's not much Microsoft can do to turn it back.
I think we won't get meaningful change until a data broker gets hacked and a huge number of people (including elected officials), have their data on display for all to see.
It starts with one.
This sort of thing should be labelled.
Just as food has warnings (too much sugar, too much salt, etc), so electronics should be labelled: "requires online registration" and "captures conversations" and "scans your network".
I have a pretty nice Samsung that I purchased maybe 5 years ago. When I initially purchased it, it was great. No account needed. Did every thing I wanted from a TV (I want it to be dumb)
I refused to update it, because I knew that at some point they would add mandatory accounts or other bloatware. Fantastic for 2 years or so.
My gf started living with me and updated it accidentally/didn't know. It now has it's own entire OS that requires 2 accounts - a Google account and a Samsung account, I believe. Devastating.
Mandatory accounts for everything. Forcing people to download certain applications. Turning off functionality if there's no subscription to X or Y. I feel we really started to take a step back for software usefulness in the late 20teens...
Factory reset?
"Commercial displays" are "dumb mode" TVs. Alternatively, you can get an Apple TV and keep the TV off networks or in network jail.
Network jail isn't a 100% for these -- in their testing, they determined that they could connect to the public Comcast networks that Comcast tries to blanket areas with. So even if you don't let it access your own networks, it will look for other ways to phone home.
> Alternatively, you can get an Apple TV and keep the TV off networks or in network jail.
The problem is that a lot of TVs won't even let you use it that way without signing in or downloading an app first. My Vizio wouldn't do anything until I acknowledged a terms of service screen. The only way I could do that was by downloading the Vizio app and connecting it to my network.
I would march it back to the store in that situation.
They are getting away with this shit because the return rates are low.
Bumping up the return rate isn't something you can count on others to do; if you don't return it, you're part of the problem.
Samsungs commercial grade signage displays have become quite smart and so have LGs.
> commercial grade signage displays
If there is ever a campaign where people smash these, I’m in.
Driving around a shopping strip while the damn things flash and change is awful. It’s distracting too, and seems likely to cause crashes.
In the context of this thread, it would be better to steal one than to smash it.
> I wish there was some regulation that would force TVs to have a "dumb" mode.
Some manufacturers have "business" lines, for things like kiosks and in-store displays, e.g.:
* https://www.samsung.com/us/business/commercial-tvs/all-comme...
* https://www.samsung.com/ca/business/smart-signage/
> I was surprised that the first thing I was prompted to do was to download an app and sign up for an account. The TV would not work unless I was signed in (or at the very least the option was so well hidden I didn't see one). Of course the sign up asks for PII like my name and phone number.
The only solution we have to this is to return the TV as defective and buy something else until you find something that works without an account or an app. A sane country would have regulations that make spying on you illegal but our government works for corporations instead of the public so they'll never protect us when there's money to be made off of us.
> our government works for corporations instead of the public
Yes, but we cheat ourselves out of change with learned helplessness. Did you see how much hatred the business community directed at Lina Khan when she started dusting off the old antitrust machinery? That happened recently. It can happen again. It was on the ballot, and it will be again.
> Did you see how much hatred the business community directed at Lina Khan
Lina Khan truly has the interests of consumers at heart.
The hatred was not just right-wing. Many lefties hated her, too.
The common thread seems to be billionaires.
Yes, I saw that too, it was quite remarkable. Still, learned helplessness would have us believe that such an appointment was impossible and yet it happened, and it happened in a Democratic party that leaned "more lib than left" to an even greater degree than it does today, or will in 2028.
So when the billionaires twirl their moustaches and say "Silly kids! You can't possibly defeat me, why do you even try?" (or, more realistically, sponsor a lackey to promote that message) one should try to have at least as much gumption as a child facing down a cartoon villain who recognizes this as smack talk rather than deep philosophical truth. The progressives of 100 years ago faced down the first round of Robber Barons and won. We've done this before and we can do it again.
Even if every single person who wants dumb TVs bought a smart TV and returned it as defective, I doubt it would even be a noticeable increase to the number of defective TVs returned.
This is one of the many reasons I haven't owned a TV for the last 5 years. I just watch stuff on the computer, or not at all. It's actually nice not having it looming over me.
I love my friend’s house that has no TV and that’s exactly what they do. The room aesthetically looks so nice without the screen in it.
However, the laptop solution tends to only work if you’re single or have no family. The TV is unfortunately a very useful device.
Projectors are still valid, and often superior, alternatives to TVs.
They’re definitely more work to get right though
Welp... I bought recently a projector.
It wouldn't start in a dumb mode without first establishing internet connection and a Google account.
Interesting idea I never thought of, though for my purposes my room gets way too much natural light for a projector to be viable.
blackout shades go a long way, but if you’ve got huge bay windows that’s probably too much.
If it’s close to good, and you need a little more brightness, there are newer screens that reflect much more light. more reflective = pricier, but there’s a decent value/sweet spot.
LG recently was in the news for loading Microsoft's utility/driver update mechanism with crapware that auto installs (by default) when you hitch one of their monitors to a Windows PC. I fear they just haven't gotten around to fully abusing monitor users yet.
There is no obligation to be truthful when it comes to providing PII for advertising. Register using a throwaway email. If an app install is mandatory, use an android emulator (set an uuid if needed). Ideally, the tv won't have ongoing internet access beyond what's required for initial setup. If not possible, at least use PiHole or similar to block telemetry.
You will still need to agree to the offline spying ToS
My research is a few months old, but at the time Vizio looked like the least bad option, largely because a lawsuit had pushed them to narrow what they collect.
The dumb mode is when you unplug it from the wall
You can literally just buy a Sony and do this. And several other manufacturers that run Google TV can be switched to dumb mode.
Sony tv with an AppleTV and a pihole.
The Koreans are taking a huge risk destroying the trust they've built over the last 30 years with this incessant spying and adware. Both LG and Samsung are engaged in this and it could open the door to Chinese rivals like TCL and HiVision. Not because they're much better but because discoveries like these will leave a bad taste in people's mouth whenever they want to buy a new TV.
They need to put a stop to this or they'll start losing market share fast.
Can this spying and tracking be so lucrative that they'll risk alienating their customers over it?
You mean THIS TCL? https://ads.tcl.com/
Or THIS Hisense? https://nexxen.com/acr-data/
They all use Automatic Content Recognition (ACR) and collect profiling data to feed into an Ad service offering.
Samsung started this and is now a leading supplier for targeted advertising on TVs (because old serialized TV doesn't have such an option), this is forcing all the brands to follow and do the same, because:
#A: it creates a revenue stream based on active devices (like Apple/Google has), not just at the time of sales, and
#B: their business partners now demand it (big electronics chains won't sell a TV which will affect their targeted ad promotions)
It would be much more valuable to have proper journalists (sorry) to write an investigative report on this whole Ad-targeting industry, to create pressure not just on some TV-vendors but on all home appliances (including cable-company set-top-boxes, which do exactly the same btw).
The only way out of this is to increase public pressure to the point that a regulation (a LAW!) is drafted and enforced.
I just recently learned about ACR. My first thought was to set up an LG TV in the basement and stream non-stop p0rn for 3 months or so. Then see what ads start showing up for me. Like, I wonder if there's a target group called "Creeps addicted to p0rn."
just to clarify: ACR is actually not taking a screenshot, it calculates a fingerprint of the picture and sends it to a server.
The fingerprint is then checked against a database of some common content, to understand whether you're watching some Movie/Series on DVD/BluRay or with an external set-top-box.
Not sure if porn is even fingerprinted in that database, would probably be 100% more fingerprints... /s
This spying is even more prevelant in Korean cars, too. Really sad, because they can be a decent enough product (no worse than any other cheap car) but they are very anti consumer and burning their reputation.
Also applies to GM: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/may/08/general-moto...
You know who DOESN'T sell the data to outside companies?
Car-vendors which have large competing in-house financial services arms that use the data themselves (VW, BMW, Ford, Stellantis, Tesla,...)
Oddly enough, historically GM is also easiest to defeat, in just unplugging the OnStar module. No idea on the last couple model years, though.
Can you elaborate for a Hyundai owner?
https://www.carscoops.com/2024/08/hyundai-and-kia-are-sellin...
Surprise, case was voluntarily dismissed. Wonder how much they paid him.
Not because they're much better but because discoveries like these will leave a bad taste in people's mouth whenever they want to buy a new TV.
It ain't just TVs. Now that I've found out that my Hyundai is not only spying on me, but snitching to the insurance company, I might just take South Korea companies off my list for anything.
Also applies to GM: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/may/08/general-moto...
You know who DOESN'T sell the data to outside companies?
Car-vendors which have large competing in-house financial services arms that use the data themselves (VW, BMW, Ford, Stellantis, Tesla,...)
The issue is not a single company, it's that there is insufficient regulation against this.
We should draft such a regulation and call it General Data Protection Regulation. My guess is that we'll see a lot of malicious compliance.
Funny enough, in that one region where this regulation exists, no such incidents of user data being sold was discovered so far...
> Not because they're much better
they actually are much better if you have a limited budget
99.99999999% of consumers will not notice any difference
Yeah, sadly most people don’t know or don’t care most likely.
Unless it’s in their face causing them friction they will just continue to use it as an appliance.
Taken literally, you’re claiming that only 80 people on Earth would notice. Maybe a tenth of that if we narrow down what is meant by «consumer». I assume you don’t really believe that?
I'm sue it's not true, it's probably in the single digits (but they might somewhat influence their friends and family)
How is this not a gigantic fine from the EU for some kind of GDPR reason
> How is this not a gigantic fine from the EU for some kind of GDPR reason
The underlying "research" is unfortunately not that clean, but I'd say for two reasons:
1. Because looking at the LG ToS alone, it seems that the devices do MUCH more data-collecting outside Europe
2. GDPR is covering your personal information (WHO you are) and personal identifiable information (data that can be used to infer WHO you are). In a nutshell: If a device (a TV, a phone, a car, a Smart Home device, whatever) collects information to PROFILE you, without collecting data about WHO you are, they are not violating your privacy. The company needs to be VERY careful about not accidentally collecting identifiable information, but as long as this doesn't happen, it's within GDPR.
That said, a proper technical write-up of the issues found, with an investigation by a professional journalist would be very helpful to get things going, put proper pressure where it needs to be and dismantle this Ad network business-model of all those TV-manufacturers (Samsung Ads, LG Ads, TCL Ads, Hisense Ads,...)
I am not sure about other products. But I have noticed that Samsung phones started putting most toggles off by default (toggles for collecting data). So the GDPR slowly seems to have some effect on different products.
(A few years ago, you definitely had to opt out of data collection.)
Because it's technically opt-in. And AFAIK the the checkbox is more explicit in Europe and they probably do a bit ore to comply with GDPR. US is a free for all mostly when it comes to abusing consumers through contrived and unfair ToS agreements.
The opt-in is bollocks. I am a LG owner and quite technical and used to legalese too. This will get them fined in Europe.
The terms of service in Europe [0] are actually very different to those in US [1], I wouldn't be surprised if the behavior within the EU is within EU GDPR regulation.
GDPR "only" covers your personal information (and personal identifiable information) anyway, it doesn't cover data used to profile you (e.g. the time of day the TV and the hours a TV is switched on is technically not personal information)
Either way, case in point: Check this hilarious statement in the US ToS:
"6. I understand and agree that Voice Information may, for the purposes set out above, be transferred to and processed in other countries (including Korea), some of which may not offer the same level of data protection."
Also, this one in the US ToS:
"9. I understand that this Smart Media Product is a household device. If this Smart Media Product will be used by more than one person, I represent that, in addition to agreeing to this Agreement, that I have obtained consent from all other members of my household whose information may be collected through this Smart Media Product and am providing consent on their behalf."
vs. Europe ToS:
"I understand and agree that Voice Information is generally handled by LGE in such a way that members of your household are not identified or identifiable from that information. Please be aware that this means that if several members of your household use Smart Media Product services we may not be able to distinguish you and your personal information from members of your household and those members may be able to see information (including some personal information) you have generated through use of Smart Media Product Services."
[0] https://gb.lgappstv.com/main/terms#tabContentTerms6
[1] https://us.lgappstv.com/main/terms#tabContentTerms6
in the US. My LG TV has put up a giant TOS agreement thing and I can't use any apps until I agree. So I unplugged the ethernet cable and bought an Apple TV. problem solved?
For now. I wouldn't surprised that if enough people start doing this, they'll just put a cheap cellular modem in the TV. Or find open access points. Or make a deal with Amazon and others to exfiltrate information via a smart home speaker/assistant.
Technical solutions only go so far, at some point you have to put in place a regulatory framework that requires consent. The divergences between US-EU privacy policies, configuration screens, etc. show that the GDPR is slowly starting to do its work.
What LG (and Samsung and all the other electronics companies) are doing is profiling the user to sell targeted advertising. This is technically not personal information, and that's a grey area for those companies when communicating to the public.
People here generally don't like to hear that, but Apple is doing the very same. There's even a study-paper on how they do this without collecting personal information [0]
So when a company yells out how it's not collecting your "personal information", the statement actually doesn't cover what has been discovered here from all I can decipher from this "research"
[0] https://machinelearning.apple.com/research/learning-with-pri...
Is there anyone who has done a technical write up and investigation into the firmwares?
Like reverse engineering how the software on the TVs work.
Also what third parties are involved.
I have a feeling there must be some third party vendor selling the same toolkit that manufacturers use.
Would be nice to figure out if it's possible to send junk data to the endpoints.
Pihole has worked reasonably well upto this point, however the web is catching up, lots of sites that use Admiral refuse to work with piehole running.
I suspect it will only be a matter of time before hardware manufacturers wise up and prevent you from using the TV if you block their ad network traffic.
The smart answer would be to figure out the expected payload of the devices and send a dummy one that tricks the TV into thinking its phoned home, I suspect.
LG for large parts of the product series use WebOS, which was the OS of the shortlived attempt by Palm to compete in the smartphone market with iPhone, which then changed hands a bit till landing there.
Me too. I was hoping for a better write up than a pay walled verge article. Yes I'm being lazy but this is hn and I like technical break downs and not just moral panic. I own an older lg tv and I'm not dismissing the societal issues.
Gamers Nexus has a 2h video doing reverse engineering and a lot of tests
I'm guessing that's at least (partly) the impetus for why we're seeing these articles now.
> Is there anyone who has done a technical write up and investigation into the firmwares?
I extracted the firmware and filesystem of a webOS 3.5 and webOS 24 TV previously so I could remove the spying bits and get an internet connected TV back. I asked Claude Opus 5 to do some analysis on the ACR implementation yesterday. I haven't had time to check it myself, so it might give some insight but take it with a grain of salt. Also because I'm not entirely sure I extracted the complete filesystem for the webOS 24 TV.
See the documents temporarily hosted here [1][2][3]. You can find the Markdown originals in the HTML source. The Markdown has also been pasted here [4] (although the forum software has sometimes inserted a lot of tildes).
LG uses the "Alphonso SDK" for ACR, a company which it seems to have a majority stake in [5].
WebOS itself is actually pretty neat once you get root on the device. It still has open source releases, uses a well documented service bus, the UI apps are unobfuscated Javascript. It's a genuine Linux TV if only LG allowed you to get root and would not install spyware by default. Secure boot unfortunately does prevent you from messing with the boot process.
If you want to know anything specific, let me know. There's also a pretty active Discord (ugh) community here [6].
Personally, I'm most interested whether LG and other device manufacturers are getting informed consent for ACR in European markets, and what the consent screen looks like. I doubt that many consumers actually know what they're consenting to, which might be a GDPR violation.
[1] https://scriptbase.org/lg-tv/webos-24.html
[2] https://scriptbase.org/lg-tv/webos-3.5.html
[3] https://scriptbase.org/lg-tv/comparison.html
[4] https://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/list_message/86090672#8...
[5] https://www.adexchanger.com/tv-2/lg-grabs-a-majority-stake-i...
[6] https://openlgtv.github.io/
Ohhh the WiFi scanning is for geolocation, of course. I was wondering why they'd do that.
It even goes both ways: you can geolocate the user, and you can sell the BSSID data for future lookups. Not sure how valuable that still is in 2026 now that every mobile phone is adding that to the Goople databases, but it was in the past.
As someone who has never owned a TV and doesn’t know about this space, are there any TV manufacturers that are just a basic screen anymore?
> In July this year, the channel flagged that some LG monitors were automatically installing an app that collected device data and ran pop-up ads for LG’s other apps and even McAfee antivirus. The public pressure from that video prompted an intervention from Microsoft, and ultimately led to LG disabling the pop-up ads.
Can anyone explain why Windows even makes this possible? I had to fight against Windows installing Alienware command center nonsense automatically because I have a "gaming" Dell OLED. Windows automatically fetched and installed it just from plugging in the monitor, adding a new system tray icon and persistent daemon with these kinds of annoying pop-ups and probably a bunch of security vulnerabilities.
It's completely incomprehensible to me. The monitor works great without it, on both Windows and Linux! I left a negative review on an otherwise good monitor as a result, but Microsoft shouldn't even be entertaining this crap.
> Can anyone explain why Windows even makes this possible?
Because, as much as we nerds might hate it, it's convenient to a large number of people. They plug in their device and the companion software to fully use all its features just installs itself. They don't have to go to some obscure URL and then locate their exact product. Even in the case you've described, the software likely enables some features of your monitor that aren't accessible otherwise. You don't care about them, but someone might.
But it should require asking the user if the installation is acceptable.
"But that would confuse users with a complicated interface"
- some product manager, who was thinking of additional ad revenue while trying to sound like not an asshole.
The intention is to allow for automatic installation of software that is actually needed for the function of the peripheral - think proprietary cameras or non-standard printers/IO/etc. It's not a bad goal, but it leads to manufacturers abusing it, unsurprisingly, for things that are not, in fact, necessary.
I largely don't use Windows anymore, but there is an option buried under Advanced System Settings/Properties under the hardware tab called Device Installation Settings. There you can turn this off (marked 'not recommended').
I know about this because I have a Windows 10 VM that was automatically installing an old broken Radeon driver through it that would just leave me with a black screen on boot. I also learned that if Microsoft got the scent of the driver and started downloading it turning this option off didn't stop that particular driver from continuing to download and hosing the install. Since I lacked a snapshot before this I had to reinstall the the entire OS in the VM with the GPU not passed through and then turn the option off first.
this feature probably began life as "automatically download necessary drivers to make installation easier" and then after some massaging the definition of "necessary drivers" expanded to "anything the manufacturer would like to see running on this PC regardless of how necessary it is for the device to function".
Windows downloads the driver first, then the driver itself uses an AddSoftware directive to install a companion app. Which is ok when the app is a GPU control panel or similar, but here it was clearly abused.
I need a Brother for TVs.
Is there some way to jailbreak your tv and run som open source os on it? Or something like that?
Not exactly sure what I’m after, but the problem is acute and widely prevalent, so there has to be some solution.
You can root most LG TVs but I'm not sure an alternative firmware exists or if it's even feasible.
https://cani.rootmy.tv/
Probably just never give it internet access and plug in an HTPC with some form of Linux (I've heard KDE's Plasma Bigscreen is better than ever, though I haven't tried it myself)
https://forum.level1techs.com/t/lg-tv-block-mini-how-to/2551...
My understanding is that this is difficult due to DRMd content refusing to work with Free operating systems.
Because yes, this nonsense would never fly in a world where Software Freedom enabled a competitive market for TV operating systems.
All smart TVs should be disconnected from the internet. Use an AppleTV or similar.
“or similar” like what?
Streaming sticks suffer from the exact same problem.
The Apple TV is the only device I know of in this space whose business model is not selling your data to the highest bidder.
Curious how a PS5 measures on the spyware scale
Much better than an Apple TV is a Linux machine running Kodi.
Some TVs will present a popover warning that they have not been able to check for updates for a while, after being disconnected for some time, and you can't close that without letting them connect (even if you are just using the screen to display content from an HDMI slot rather than using any of the other TV features).
Which ones? I'd be happy to know the brands.
FWIW, I've never seen that come up on the five or six TCLs that I've owned over the last decade. I have AppleTVs connected to all of them and never connect them to the internet. So far, so good.
Samsung TVs certainly do. A massive PITA.
Good to know. I don't buy Samsung anymore anyway. I have two CRG9s and they're already showing same problems after a couple of years. Had a midrange phone from them some years ago - started dying 6mo in (battery, restarts, slowness).
A family has a soundbar that just turns off after a while if it isn't connected to the internet.
I wonder if this is firmware related. I've had a Samsung TV for a few years now that I've never connected to the internet, so my firmware is likely very out of date, and it has never displayed a message like that.
Do they still do it if they've never been connected to a network? So they don't even know what date/time it is relative to their current updates/firmware? Do they display the warning based on a cumulative power-on timer only (much as good quality computer displays have somewhere in their menus buried a figure showing their total cumulative power on hours).
Not sufficient, given reports of TVs and other devices automatically creating mesh networks. Your disconnected TV could talk to your neighbour's connected one. If anything, I wonder why LG isn't already doing it.
Edit: Getting pushback asking for evidence (fair). Most recently I read it in an HN thread a few years back. I thought it was a TCL TV, but I can't find it anymore. It wasn't Samsung's WiFi Direct, which I don't think was ever on by default.
Lacking better evidence, I'll admit I'm probably wrong and no TV has been documented doing this (yet).
Could you link to these reports, the ones with evidence?
Here is maybe what he was remembering from HN:
> Our Samsung fridge’s manual says it’ll automatically and silently mesh network with any Samsung TVs in range, use AI and hidden cameras to recognize what’s in the fridge and when we use it, then have the TV inject targeted ads into programming based on its findings. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45742208
Or (speculating on the future, not present):
> they'll develop some common mesh local network that'll grab data through any gateway. Imagine your tv connecting to some wireless headphones which have multipoint feature enabled and connected to a smartphone which has wifi, tv sends encrypted data to buds, buds to phone and phone to some external source. Ofc it can be more sophisticated but totally doable and plausible. Or imagine some localized automesh based on zigbee/matter-> you have a philips hue lamp connected to wifi, tv connects to it and it forwards data... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46374855
If something is technically possible, one should act as though it is already happening and hope to be wrong rather than refusing to consider the issue until sufficient “proof” is given, by which it will be too late. Doubly so when advertisers are involved, who as a group are economically-incentivized to not care about consent.
This would be trivial to test and detect. Just like every claim that TVs will connect to open WiFi networks if you don't connect them to a network. Yet after years of these claims and being extremely trivial to test not a single shred of evidence has ever been provided.
How would you test this?
If they form a mesh and route traffic via one TV that acts as an exit node you can check the packet TTLs.
But if my TV is doing this, then by definition it's not acting as an exit node so how do I test it?
There's no requirement that the mesh be IP-based or function as a layer-3 router...
Even if it were IP-bsaed, it would be extremely straightforward for one box to send a UDP message to another, and receive and retransmit at the application layer. No TTL nonsense, No multiple IPs showing up communicating upstream.
Isn't messing with TTLs a pretty obvious thing to do when communicating covertly? And wouldn't that kind of packet inspection only catch cases of TVs literally acting as packet-level routers, but not catch application-layer shenanigans like aggregating statistics in the exit node so that all the data going over your own network appears to be originating from the same device?
It's still implausible, but thoroughly verifying that your TV isn't spying on you isn't trivial.
This seems paranoid. There are many things which are technically possible, but there is no evidence of some super-advertiser doing. It's not even clear to me that much of the 'fingerprinting' (past basic re-targeting) actually works.
> This seems paranoid. There are many things which are technically possible, but [...]
Isn't this what people said pre-Snowden? Not that NSA spying is the same as corporate "surveillance capitalism", but if companies can make more money off it and the technology exists, it seems prudent to assume companies are trying it.
There was evidence of the NSA intercepting international communications before Snowden, but for some reason that didn't seem to make much of a lasting impression: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A
It's also significant to note that while the government is quite bad at keeping 'problematic' behavior secret, companies are much worse at it.
Analogously, there's evidence that companies will make extensive use of available techniques (browser fingerprinting, cookies, etc.) to track and surveil users without their knowledge and often against their will. The exposure of that arguably also hasn't triggered an effective backlash against those companies. So, as with the pre-Snowden evidence for domestic communication interception by the NSA, I think there's ample evidence of the willingness of companies to exploit whatever technologies they can in order to surveil users.
The way this is typically handled is through compartmentalization, where no one working has enough of a global view to be able to claim that the behaviour is problematic.
There's a lot that's problematic that we suspect that is going on but don't have firm proof, because the organization actually is pretty good at keeping it secret enough. There's some exceptions where things do get leaked/revealed, but how would you know if this was 99% of wrongdoing, or 0.99% of it?
https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/28/23659191/amazon-sidewalk-...
That is an article saying that mesh networking frameworks exist. It does not support the GP claim of smart TVs creating mesh networks across different owners.
Unless you have evidence, please stop spreading this rumor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IFVTcM28KA
Please point me to the timestamp in that video that supports this claim:
> reports of TVs and other devices automatically creating mesh networks. Your disconnected TV could talk to your neighbour's connected one.
I’ve heard rumors of that, and also of TVs shipping with cellular modems with which to phone home. I don’t know if either have been confirmed, but it would be ridiculous for such a thing to be legal.
It's a longstanding, and obviously false, rumor. It would be trivial to prove that these things connect to open wifi networks to phone home, but no one has ever proved that they do that, because they don't actually do that. It would be a little harder, but still very easy, to prove that they connect to cell networks, but no one has proved that they do that either, because they don't actually do that either.
Keeping them disconnected from wifi is sufficient.
It’s perfectly legal to put a cellular modem in a TV, but not without disclosing that to the FCC and on product labels. This and the mesh network thing for TVs are (currently) a conspiracy theory, which sucks because it muddies the waters in advance of it inevitably happening in reality.
Cellular modems seem unlikely, because both they and the service plan they'd need are too expensive to be justified by any benefit to the manufacturer.
Cell plans are very cheap when you are a company looking for low bandwidth off-peak service for a lot of devices. As individuals you can't get those deals, but companies can.
I don't know if TVs have a cell modem, but it isn't unreasonable to say they could.
As a different poster mentioned, the FCC needs to know about this though and so it will be documented.
Not so far fetched when your advertising revenue is in the tens of millions of dollars.
They just need this revenue by tv to be higher than the price of the mobile plan per tv. For a few Gb per month it may be relevant in the not so distant future.
Yes. Considering 90%+ of users will just connect their TV to their WiFi, shipping a cell modem with every TV to catch that last 10% seems like bad ROI.
I could however see this happening in the future in response to regulation. For example some "think of the children" rule that makes TV makers responsible for blocking mature content.
Phones already have modems that do Wi-Fi, cellular and Bluetooth in a single chip.
It may at some point no longer be economical to manufacture a Wi-Fi only modem.
See: Amazon Sidewalk
Which manufacturers and which TVs?
Otherwise it's just some 10+ year old rumour
I have connected it to my network and then blocked it off the internet via Pi-hole. That way, I hope, it'll not try to scan for other open networks.
That's not really sufficient. It could still phone home if it falls back to IP addresses. You should be blocking it at the firewall level, not just with DNS.
But me personally, I wouldn't ever connect any of these devices to my network.
Some of these devices also now use DoH to bypass any DNS-level filtering.
The only reason it is on my network is that I need it for home automation (via home bridge). I'll have to see what else I can do.
Firewall rule that prevents the tv from accessing the internet (by mac address if using dhcp, or set a static ip for the tv). Or stick it in separate quarantined IoT subnet with your devices.
It’s still scanning (or at least listening to) all the other devices on your local network, like your phones, PCs, etc. It collects an inventory and if it ever happens to get Internet access, uploads that data.
That's why you put IoT crap into an isolated vlan with its own ssid, enforce device isolation for that ssid across all WAPs, and enforce isolation on the vlan level with your switches to cover any hardwired devices.
Just disable wifi. Occasionally factory reset, hook up to wifi for firmware update, then disable again.
Why do you need to update the firmware at all?
All smart TVs should not come with WiFi or Ethernet controllers.
Then they are not smart TVs anymore. More precisely, they couldn't offer the features one expected from such. Think about a smartphone without internet connection.
https://archive.is/zmCOd
Posted on a website where you can't read without subscribing... just like the video man! LG might be after money, but theverge is just the same lol.
Paywalls are how you run a business without ads/spyware. These are not remotely the same
Does this mean that TVs can never be recycled or resold now, adding to the garbage problem? All you have to do is sell the TV to someone who does eventually connect it to the internet and it will upload all the data it acquired while the previous owner had it?
What's the incentive for these manufacturers to do this?
Are they getting paid for the data (e.g. we'll pay you $100M to install spyware), or are they trying to be an ad platform, or is it simply analytics gone out of control?
Because they make higher margins on their ad business, details here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IFVTcM28KA
Get get to make money off of you for the rest of your life. They'll sell ads to companies, and they'll sell your data to anyone willing to pay enough for it.
Unfortunately, considering that 80-90% of people simply don't think or care about this, I can see the incentive.
I've said it before, but I wish a somewhat trustworthy organization would create a 'DUMB' certification - "Don't Upload My Bits".
Hardware switches would be plus in modern era. Not just for mics.
Are the WiFi cards on these TV like laptops or soldered on. I wonder if you can atleast disconnect the antenna or remove WiFi chip.
Why? Just don't connect it to the internet.
(Yeah, yeah, when someone actually demos a TV seeking open WiFi APs, then we'll talk. And anyone bringing up ETH over HDMI gets a spankin'.)
There are reports, including in this thread, of TV models that require a login to proceed during initial setup
That's good that they let you know right out of the box that the TV needs to go back in the box, and back to the store.
XFinity has some bullshit where your router provides an AP for other XFinity members.
My understanding is that it uses bandwidth you aren't paying for to carry this signal rather than using up what you paid for, but still it's been there for something going on ten years.
So don't give it your Xfinity creds? My understanding is that Xfinity doesn't let just anyone connect to that network.
That was the moment I bought my own cable modem instead of using theirs.
I was about to switch carriers anyway, that was the kick in the butt I needed to make the call and schedule an appointment.
Some parts of these organizations are aware that some of their rent comes from inertia. Other parts don't realize that they are providing the impulse to overcome that inertia.
I don't mean to be dismissive, but isn't this old news? Hasn't it been the case that _all_ "smart" TVs have been spying on users since they came out? I've personally operated as if they are: my TV is not connected to the internet. At least, not through my internet connection. It's not on my wifi, nor is it connected to my LAN.
A real problem is that you might not even need to give these internet access. If your neighbor gives their TV internet access and it can establish a mesh connection then it might be able to exfiltrate data that way. I don't know of any TVs that do this, but it's always been a possibility.
Another possibility is even if you don't give it access to your wifi, if you eventually give your TV away or sell it, the new user could connect it to wifi and if it has any persistent storage then it could upload all of its stored data about you at that point.
Companies that do this need to end their entire brand, because they're just helping the CCP.
This is straight up dystopian level spying. Streaming microphone inputs all the time, knowing everything that is displayed on the screens via object recognition and stuff. Scraping your local network. If I’m not mistaken there is the possibility for the tv to connect to public/open networks to send this stuff without you knowing. Magically syncing with your phone. It’s truly terrible, and a class action is all but guaranteed to come. Gamers nexus has a great video on this.
We knew they were reporting back our watching habits of the built-in stuff. Then we learned they were doing video capture on HDMI ports to report back on what we watched on external sources (Xbox, Apple TV, etc). Then we learned that they did botnet-like stuff in the background even when they were switched off.
NOW we're learning that they're spying with their internal microphone when switched off.
Reminder that smart TV ids are part of California's DROP platform, and that you can (and should) request that all registered data brokers delete data associated with your television.
This is the reason why I allow certain mac addresses to communicate outside of my house. SonicWall makes it easy.
> SonicWall makes it easy.
This might be the first time I've ever seen anyone say something even slightly positive about SonicWall.
These TVs will connect to any open wifi and upload your data - your firewall only works for your network.
But I was reliably informed this never happens! (Reasons I own an NEC commercial display instead)
Which NEC commercial display do you have? How do you like it for normal TV duties? What tradeoffs were you willing to make when you bought it compared to the features which were available in consumer-focused "smart" TVs?
MultiSync P495, with the additional daughter card for the RPI CM4.
As far as regular TV duties, the CM4 running libreELEC does everything I need and then some. The HDMI-CEC was flaky at one point, but from my research on it regular consumer TVs suffer from the same problem. If anything I'm more limited by the CM4's output, less the display itself.
Tradeoffs: I wanted to control my stack with minimal cabling pretty much everything else be damned, and this was a nice integrated solution and a excellent alternative to just buying a 43" dell monitor to hang on my wall. There are probably some image processing "features" that videophiles can comment on, but I've been used to literal decades of LCDs at this point, so an IPS display is going to be just fine(tm). Display lag is a bit higher than I would like for retro video games on it, but that's more an overall LCD problem, less a specific display issue.
In functionality it's much closer to a computer monitor than it is to a TV. The menus are obtuse, brutalist even, but if you ever had to work in IT and set up a conference room display you will feel right at home.
It's also a heavy pig compared to consumer televisions, right on the edge of what my mount is able to hold, and not really great to wrangle in a position by your lonesome, but not impossible either.
As for video: It's more than fine. Maybe the pixels are bigger than my macbook's screen, but at 6+ft viewing distance with my eyesight, I can't tell.
Ah NEC. There's a name I haven't heard in a long time. I used to have an NEC monitor.
They're usually sold as Sharp in the states, but the model numbers are the same, etc. As an old fogey of a nerd it's neat to have a NEC-branded remote/screen when I sit down to watch a movie.
By who? Manufacturers have been public about selling viewing data and put it in their user agreements.
Are you confused between TVs selling your viewing habits using automated content recognition (which they all do and is well documented), vs TVs finding nefarious ways to still upload that data even after disabling network access? Because the latter is conspiracy theories and there's no evidence of it happening (and it would be trivial to verify if it was).
Except in the article that is literally parent of this discussion thread? Did you even RTFA?
Ohh my this website is terrible on mobile
[dupe] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49592375
Several discussions this week, some merged, these not.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49605424
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49605356
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49573427
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49575176
a number of those are Related yes, and/or the original submission that didn't get much discussion, so second submission was it. And this one is a dupe, referencing the source. Same discussion.