The "Emacs doesn't have a file-tree" is when I stopped short and wondered what this person's background is in IDEs.
My emacs days are 1999 during my "functional or get out" phase, but my .emacs had close to 4000 lines in it, including xterm mouse support, a clone of midnight commander + sftp to a wehbost and deep integration with ctags/cscope/c++filt. There was even a line by line debugger with custom .gdbinit commands - look at the php project's gdbinit[1] if you want an idea of how to walk your own super special data structures.
You can't put Emacs in an IDE comparison and say anything about features without at least one person saying "well, actually".
I eventually switched to vim but that had to do with needing to ssh into 100k+ machines on support rotation & never having emacs on any of them.
He said the same about vim, but did everyone forget about netrw? Here, go into vim and type `:Ex`. You can also have mouse support. (Netrw can also do trees if you don't like the format, go look at `g:netrw_liststyle`)
My friend on eMacs say something similar, but you don't really need as many plugins as people typically use. There's lots of native ways to do things. It's totally fine to prefer NerdTree over the native netrw but it's not like you can't do file exploring. Hell, I use fzf most times (`:GFiles`). But what I don't like is when people confidently say "x can't do y" when it can. I'll give people a break if it requires plugins or complicated commands, but native ones? It just shows ignorance.
While we're on the topic, stop using Esc, use <C-[>. You don't need Esc. And type `set -o vi` into bash/zsh. It's still worth learning your tools. You'll find lots of solutions to problems that only exist because of ignorance. Maybe those solutions are better, but the bigger problem seems to be ignorance. It's fine to be ignorant too! There's a shit ton of docs, no one expects you to read it all. But it's a good place to start
It also incorrectly says that Emacs has no mouse support. When you first open Emacs the default buffer has clickable links in it, it's impossible to miss the fact that Emacs has mouse support if you ever even open it.
Yeah, speedbar and dired are built-in. Speedbar by default still opens in a new frame I think, but in emacs 31 there’s a config option to make it open in a side window without any additional tweaking needed.
Long time ago, in mid-2000-s I tried to switch to Emacs or Vim from Visual Studio.
I wanted to have a simple project file tree as a side panel and multiple editor tabs on the right. I spent a week toying with various elisp scripts, Vim plugins, and digging out information from a then-moribund XEmacs mailing list.
And I couldn't do what I wanted in the end. Nothing worked seamlessly or reliably.
It always could be. Go into vim and type `let g:netrw_liststyle = 3` then `:Vex`. The window size won't be what you want, but is the core idea? Because if it is, you just set the liststyle in your vimrc and have netrw start on load, with proper pane location and width.
That or most people have used NerdTree for a decade
Yep, I have 2 kids under 1 so this project is either built with AI or it’s not built. I put that line in because the IDE aspect doesn’t need agent management or anything. Other tools are better for that.
It would still be nice if you stated upfront that this is built with AI. The people who are interested in “no AI features” are likely to also be the ones who do not want something built with AI. It would help to be clear about the project’s stance on the matter.
Making these kinds of AI projects with fancy READMEs give you a veneer of authority, but the lack of earned wisdom tends to stick out once a few people glance at it.
Yeah maybe not the best wording. It’s more meant that ideally toast can be fully used with a cursor for interactions. I don’t think you can exit vim or emacs just by clicking on a button?
You absolutely can exit Emacs by clicking a button! Even when it is running in terminal. You just need menu-bar-mode (which is enabled by default) and enabling xterm-mouse-mode (which also should be enabled by default) - https://asciinema.org/a/rprH0gLSkrUz2cqr
You can: emacs has a menu bar and you can quit emacs that way. If you write code in your .emacs.d to turn off the menu bar, then I think you can be trusted to use the keyboard to quit emacs.
> toast is for the developer who wants to stay in their terminal without spending hours getting it up to snuff.
I need a terminal that just works. If it doesn't work out of the box with sensible defaults, it is indeed not up to snuff, and therefore thrown away immediately. Don't ask me to use your buggy-vibe coded thing if it's not up to snuff, right?
This is coming from someone who did spend hundreds of hours learning to customize their terminal, their vim environment, and put all of it in source control to rot away.
I have a script that changes the background colour of my terminal based on whatever directory or server I'm in. That's enough beauty for me, I do believe there is such a thing as over configuring and defaults are very powerful.
This seems like all those UI designers who have a crack at redoing Wikipedia and then fail miserably because they just plaster whatever trend on top of something that is universally good.
I don't understand the trend of forcing everything into terminals. It's needlessly constraining and it's much more work that just using Qt (or any other UI framework).
For me it’s that why do I need another application open? I have my coding agents in the terminal, I should also be able to traverse and read a codebase in the terminal as well
Why do you want you coding agents to be in a terminal? A terminal is missing latex rendering, inline images, a browser showing what the agent is clicking on, being able to view a spreadsheet and then select a region to reference in the conversation, clickable links when it references a specific line number with mouse-over previews, and interactive inline visualisations. A coding agent missing any of those is a significantly worse experience, yet people are for some reason willing to give up all of them to have their coding agents run in a terminal. It's not even like you get a familiar environment to work in, nothing that you set up in your terminal carries over into your agent or IDE.
I have so much shit now that I have custom workspaces to deal with because "repository" has stopped being the correct boundary to think about software development (for me). It would be great if _any_ decent editor would support these, especially Zed.
Poor wording, more so meant that when I drop into vim, vi, or emacs I have no way to (without some external knowledge) know how to open a file tree. Just a barrier to usage is all.
That’s just the theme matching the terminal, there are two others out of the box but I prefer the system theme. And by beautiful I mean it has a cohesive system design and theming. I prefer to to another VsCode clone
But this is not what that site tracks. It lists any project with any LLM usage or potential usage (eg. permissive AI usage policy, but no evidence of AI use) without any caveats. It is an extreme, absolutely no AI usage, stance.
The "Emacs doesn't have a file-tree" is when I stopped short and wondered what this person's background is in IDEs.
My emacs days are 1999 during my "functional or get out" phase, but my .emacs had close to 4000 lines in it, including xterm mouse support, a clone of midnight commander + sftp to a wehbost and deep integration with ctags/cscope/c++filt. There was even a line by line debugger with custom .gdbinit commands - look at the php project's gdbinit[1] if you want an idea of how to walk your own super special data structures.
You can't put Emacs in an IDE comparison and say anything about features without at least one person saying "well, actually".
I eventually switched to vim but that had to do with needing to ssh into 100k+ machines on support rotation & never having emacs on any of them.
[1] - https://github.com/php/php-src/blob/master/.gdbinit
He said the same about vim, but did everyone forget about netrw? Here, go into vim and type `:Ex`. You can also have mouse support. (Netrw can also do trees if you don't like the format, go look at `g:netrw_liststyle`)
My friend on eMacs say something similar, but you don't really need as many plugins as people typically use. There's lots of native ways to do things. It's totally fine to prefer NerdTree over the native netrw but it's not like you can't do file exploring. Hell, I use fzf most times (`:GFiles`). But what I don't like is when people confidently say "x can't do y" when it can. I'll give people a break if it requires plugins or complicated commands, but native ones? It just shows ignorance.
While we're on the topic, stop using Esc, use <C-[>. You don't need Esc. And type `set -o vi` into bash/zsh. It's still worth learning your tools. You'll find lots of solutions to problems that only exist because of ignorance. Maybe those solutions are better, but the bigger problem seems to be ignorance. It's fine to be ignorant too! There's a shit ton of docs, no one expects you to read it all. But it's a good place to start
Considering that the very first paragraph of their README has:
> toast is for the developer who wants to stay in their terminal without spending hours getting it up to snuff.
I think he knows you can get anything you want in emacs/vim. The pitch is that toast is batteries-included.
Mouse support and filetrees are included in both vim and emacs. The batteries are already included and have been for essentially ever
It also incorrectly says that Emacs has no mouse support. When you first open Emacs the default buffer has clickable links in it, it's impossible to miss the fact that Emacs has mouse support if you ever even open it.
I’m surprised you wouldn’t use TRAMP for remote access then?
Yeah, speedbar and dired are built-in. Speedbar by default still opens in a new frame I think, but in emacs 31 there’s a config option to make it open in a side window without any additional tweaking needed.
Sigh.
Long time ago, in mid-2000-s I tried to switch to Emacs or Vim from Visual Studio.
I wanted to have a simple project file tree as a side panel and multiple editor tabs on the right. I spent a week toying with various elisp scripts, Vim plugins, and digging out information from a then-moribund XEmacs mailing list.
And I couldn't do what I wanted in the end. Nothing worked seamlessly or reliably.
Can this be done out-of-the-box now?
That or most people have used NerdTree for a decade
Yes, speedbar, with speedbar-prefer-window set to t
Or use any of the various file tree packages in [M]ELPA
XEmacs has always been moribund. Use GNU Emacs.
First file I look at (concerning):
"github.com/yourusername/toast/internal/components/breadcrumbs" "github.com/yourusername/toast/internal/components/closedialog" "github.com/yourusername/toast/internal/components/commandpalette" "github.com/yourusername/toast/internal/components/editor"
It's interesting that it brags about no AI as a feature, but the website (and maybe the product itself?) was clearly built using AI.
Yep, I have 2 kids under 1 so this project is either built with AI or it’s not built. I put that line in because the IDE aspect doesn’t need agent management or anything. Other tools are better for that.
Irish twins! congratulations :)
Thanks so much! Only reason this got posted today is because everyone is home sick
It would still be nice if you stated upfront that this is built with AI. The people who are interested in “no AI features” are likely to also be the ones who do not want something built with AI. It would help to be clear about the project’s stance on the matter.
For sure the right call, really appreciate it. Judging from the comments my lack of product and marketing skills is showing.
Vim does have mouse support.
And so does Emacs. I don’t think this person has really used them.
Making these kinds of AI projects with fancy READMEs give you a veneer of authority, but the lack of earned wisdom tends to stick out once a few people glance at it.
Yeah maybe not the best wording. It’s more meant that ideally toast can be fully used with a cursor for interactions. I don’t think you can exit vim or emacs just by clicking on a button?
You absolutely can exit Emacs by clicking a button! Even when it is running in terminal. You just need menu-bar-mode (which is enabled by default) and enabling xterm-mouse-mode (which also should be enabled by default) - https://asciinema.org/a/rprH0gLSkrUz2cqr
You can: emacs has a menu bar and you can quit emacs that way. If you write code in your .emacs.d to turn off the menu bar, then I think you can be trusted to use the keyboard to quit emacs.
Vim has full mouse support. Not only can you exit, but you can even save using just the mouse.
> toast is for the developer who wants to stay in their terminal without spending hours getting it up to snuff.
I need a terminal that just works. If it doesn't work out of the box with sensible defaults, it is indeed not up to snuff, and therefore thrown away immediately. Don't ask me to use your buggy-vibe coded thing if it's not up to snuff, right?
This is coming from someone who did spend hundreds of hours learning to customize their terminal, their vim environment, and put all of it in source control to rot away.
I got so annoyed with this and the fact that I do development in both mac and linux that switched to do all my development inside a container.
I just made a bash script that shells into the container (or starts it if it is not already running) and in there everything is set up.
I have a script that changes the background colour of my terminal based on whatever directory or server I'm in. That's enough beauty for me, I do believe there is such a thing as over configuring and defaults are very powerful.
This seems like all those UI designers who have a crack at redoing Wikipedia and then fail miserably because they just plaster whatever trend on top of something that is universally good.
So glad to see this! This is exactly what we need! Love this!
I wrote this article a while back on how to build a great terminal editor that's better than Emacs and VIM [1], you might find it interesting!
[1] https://gist.github.com/taoeffect/086220456e736cceb30d68834d...
I don't understand the trend of forcing everything into terminals. It's needlessly constraining and it's much more work that just using Qt (or any other UI framework).
For me it’s that why do I need another application open? I have my coding agents in the terminal, I should also be able to traverse and read a codebase in the terminal as well
Why do you want you coding agents to be in a terminal? A terminal is missing latex rendering, inline images, a browser showing what the agent is clicking on, being able to view a spreadsheet and then select a region to reference in the conversation, clickable links when it references a specific line number with mouse-over previews, and interactive inline visualisations. A coding agent missing any of those is a significantly worse experience, yet people are for some reason willing to give up all of them to have their coding agents run in a terminal. It's not even like you get a familiar environment to work in, nothing that you set up in your terminal carries over into your agent or IDE.
Neat, but I'm pretty happy with my disintegrated development environment.
I have long wanted a lightweight terminal-based editor that understands VS Code .code-workspace configuration files. https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/editing/workspaces/worksp...
I have so much shit now that I have custom workspaces to deal with because "repository" has stopped being the correct boundary to think about software development (for me). It would be great if _any_ decent editor would support these, especially Zed.
Throw an issue up there and I can try to take a whack at it!
Nerdtree is such a waste of screen real estate. I prefer netrw.
Now just add a terminal inside the IDE and we’re gold.
vim has a built in file tree. You didn't even proof-read your readme.
Christ.
Poor wording, more so meant that when I drop into vim, vi, or emacs I have no way to (without some external knowledge) know how to open a file tree. Just a barrier to usage is all.
By external knowledge, do you mean knowing how the program you're using works?
In what way is it "beautiful"?
To me, it's just yet another bland low-contrast dark mode interface.
Also, vim has mouse support. Probably shouldn't use a clanker to write your readme if you're not going to take the time to do a basic fact check.
That’s just the theme matching the terminal, there are two others out of the box but I prefer the system theme. And by beautiful I mean it has a cohesive system design and theming. I prefer to to another VsCode clone
Looks like another unreadable black hole of nothingness. God, I wish this trend would hurry up and run its course.
Unfortunately the trend is only accelerating
there are other themes, the one shown is just extending my terminal theme so it doesn’t feel out of place.
Ironically, I understand what the "unreadable black hole of nothingness" is perfectly. But I have no idea what your comment means.
hard to argue that the UBHON is a recurring theme these days! rimshot
> "No AI features"
> Sees "Claude"
Now almost 90% of projects on GitHub including existing projects are now slop or are adding slop.
Many projects are getting contaminated with AI, and even Linux is getting contaminated with this.
There is a list of projects that have non-slop alternatives one can use instead.
https://codeberg.org/ethical-foss/open-slopware
Do you count any use of LLMs, including highly reviewed and controlled use as "slop"?
The idea that there can be no high quality use of LLMs to aid software development is lacking a lot of nuance.
The files (even the go.mod) contain references to "yourusername". You can be certain this project's LLM use was not highly reviewed and controlled.
If it is high quality use, we would not notice the AI. It would just be good code.
But this is not what that site tracks. It lists any project with any LLM usage or potential usage (eg. permissive AI usage policy, but no evidence of AI use) without any caveats. It is an extreme, absolutely no AI usage, stance.
It's amazing, people act as if there wasn't shit code before LLMs.
LLMs are just another multiplier. A liability in the hands of incompetence and an asset in the hands competence.
Another tool, knowledge will always empower those further than those without knowledge.
> Do you count any use of LLMs, including highly reviewed and controlled use as "slop"?
Yes.
To quote the repository:
"slop: Anything generated by AI, typically code, books, articles, or images."
If you are reviewing AI generated code, you are already reviewing slop which is a lose-lose situation.
I mean yeah, I have 2 kids under 1. So I wasn’t gonna spend the 100+ hours doing it all by hand. The project either gets made using AI or not at all.
Good luck!
I wish you luck on your quest to avoid all of the software on that list.