A la Enron but completely legal. It is not just a circle, it is more like a swirl. Wallstreet invested in Ai Farms to purchase NVDA chips and then NVDA invested in Ai Farms and not only that it is investing in its customer, Anthropic and its IPO.. They are recycling the cash that they harvest from stock markets till it becomes the famous singularity in funding like a financial hurricane.
Nvidia's financing is disclosed. Enron lied about its schemes. I've also seen zero evidence that Nvidia is extending this credit to related parties to put in sham orders–that was part of Enron's shtick, too.
The mechanics are legal but the objective is the same which is buy your own output by manufacturing a demand. I am sure they can buy good lawyers to keep it completely legal.
I first read that "every $1T brings back $100", thinking, wow, is it THAT bad?
No, it's very unlikely at this point every $1 Nvidia invests brings back $100. Stating something like that is almost a red flag that things are overheating.
But even that isn't really true since Nvidia P/E was unreasonably high even 4 years ago. So how is this not lying to investors (a thing that is illegal)?
Where are those 99$ coming from? Who is actually paying this money? Because it seems like so far everybody is losing money with no reversal of this trend in sight
And this is the actual problem. I can't see framing it as a ratio as anything other than an attempt to mislead. What do you predict will happen when the market deflates? Whether or not a segment will behave like a line of dominoes and catastrophically implode is the question.
As I understand it they are risking that even if the major AI labs fail all the compute capacity that's been built out will remain in demand at sufficiently high prices.
If this isn't a house of cards, AI companies' customers. The companies and individauls ponying up for a Claude subscription or compute through OpenRouter.
Customer financing isn't inherently fucked. It's just highly suspect at the scale Nvidia's doing it. There was another thread where I noted that Nvidia's investments are literally monetarily significant, to the point that I expect them to start being directly referenced in the Fed's beige book [1].
> Where are those 99$ coming from? Who is actually paying this money?
Companies who pay 99$ to make >99$ in return. I am not saying it works in all cases but that's the idea when you pay for stuff as a Company.
> Because it seems like so far everybody is losing money with no reversal of this trend in sight
I am not sure what you are seeing. Anthropic (as one of only two major companies that do just AI) is starting to return profits, while demand for AI is accelerating and, clearly, compute is maxed out. And I mean: On the entire planet. They are turning profits despite being in full buildout mode.
You, when their circular financing scheme fails and you're the one left holding the bag as your government says "they're too important to let them fail".
The current valuations are only inflated until they're not. Especially if the big American labs can convince the US government to work out a joint "AI non-proliferation" agreement with China which will allow both countries to essentially carve up and techno-colonize the rest of the world without any other competition except between themselves.
We're already seeing signs of this strategy from Open AI and Anthropic warning about the dangers of AI and the need for safety regulations. None of that stuff matters if China is not also on board with it.
> The current valuations are only inflated until they're not
You could say that about any historically inflated valuation all the way back to the tulip mania. Either the expected profit materializes or it doesn't.
> We're already seeing signs of this strategy from Open AI and Anthropic warning about the dangers of AI and the need for safety regulations
I would read this as a desire to pause training to be able to present a profit in anticipation of the IPO. The major AI labs mad scramble to IPO is if anything a sign that they aren't at all confident in the valuation. If they were they would be no hurry to cash out.
Well, it is. Thermodynamics. Earth is pretty much a closed system, except for the sun.
So for example if you invest $100 in a farm and get a return of 10%, where does that come from? The nutrients in the soil, the effort expended by the workers, and the power of the sun to turn seeds into food. All value comes either from finite resources in the ground (nuclear, oil, ...), from solar power, or from human effort (work, innovations, etc.)
So can you trace back Nvidia's incredible 10000% return on investment to any of these sources? Which ones?
It is a bit circular but it also a growing real market. NVIDIA is accelerating the market and also making money. It is a smart strategy on their part.
We are not at the top of this trend yet so I do not see this as over investment.
I remember the criticism Microsoft got for investing in Facebook/Meta that gave them a whooping $15B valuation and getting 1.7% in 2007. Not all deals will turn out that prescient but a few will and make up for any duds. This is a real market.
I don't know about $100 back ... but their profit margin is $0.90 on the gpu that is bought with the $1 they lend / swap for equity + they get ongoing interest / equity stake.
So if they just had spare 100 billion they could make 10 trillion? Sounds reasonable and plausible right? Sadly market manipulation is not being prosecuted.
They are definitely in NVIDIA’s own rooms! It’s like, they invest $1 in AI companies, that pay back NVIDIA $100 for GPUs. If you draw the lines you will see something that looks a bit like an ellipse. Or maybe a boomerang path. Or like, a 2d sphere. A bit frustrating we don’t have a simpler word for such a shape
Yes, it seems very possible to me that Nvidia makes a lot of money. They are literally the largest company in the world.
Who pays? Only all the companies, desperately raising as much capital as possible, issuing new stock to do it, going for unprecedented investment rounds, burning cash reserves to fund the largest data centre rollout in history.
Who builds the things that go into said datacenters? The thing that has also raised in price dramatically in recent years?
It is always about scale. At scale today's Nvidia does anything is so big that 100x is not anymore reasonable. Or then it is not significant...
From sub million to hundreds of millions I could theoretically see. Even tens of millions to billions. And even then I would be extremely skeptical.
But with Nvidia we are talking somewhere in the scale at tens or hundreds of billions. And that is actually very large sums of money. Even if it often does not look like it.
The only metric by which they are the largest company in the world is valuation. There are thousands of companies more important to your daily existence than Jensen's leather jacket factory.
They are also talking out of their asses, as they are massively overselling their capacity, and everyone is on a 5 to 10 year backlog.
In a very narrow sense it may be true that Nvidia expects to make some multiple of the money invested (unlikely to be 100x but whatever). But you can't talk about that without talking about the wider economy. If the wider economy, and especially the pension funds putting money into the scheme, cannot sustain this, it'll eventually collapse and then everyone including Nvidia will lose lots and lots of money.
A la Enron but completely legal. It is not just a circle, it is more like a swirl. Wallstreet invested in Ai Farms to purchase NVDA chips and then NVDA invested in Ai Farms and not only that it is investing in its customer, Anthropic and its IPO.. They are recycling the cash that they harvest from stock markets till it becomes the famous singularity in funding like a financial hurricane.
> Enron but completely legal
Nvidia's financing is disclosed. Enron lied about its schemes. I've also seen zero evidence that Nvidia is extending this credit to related parties to put in sham orders–that was part of Enron's shtick, too.
The mechanics are legal but the objective is the same which is buy your own output by manufacturing a demand. I am sure they can buy good lawyers to keep it completely legal.
Are you claiming NVIDIA manufactured the demand for AI?
Right, that's why it's legal. We all get that
I first read that "every $1T brings back $100", thinking, wow, is it THAT bad?
No, it's very unlikely at this point every $1 Nvidia invests brings back $100. Stating something like that is almost a red flag that things are overheating.
Its definitely consistent over the past several years.
Every $1 they invest brings back $100 in their valuation maybe.
But even that isn't really true since Nvidia P/E was unreasonably high even 4 years ago. So how is this not lying to investors (a thing that is illegal)?
> The figure was rhetorical, not a disclosed 100-times investment return.
seems no one is reading the article..
It's a very stupid thing to say though, it's like Trump's promise to reduce drug prices by 1000%. I guess that was also just a figure of speech.
Where are those 99$ coming from? Who is actually paying this money? Because it seems like so far everybody is losing money with no reversal of this trend in sight
And this is the actual problem. I can't see framing it as a ratio as anything other than an attempt to mislead. What do you predict will happen when the market deflates? Whether or not a segment will behave like a line of dominoes and catastrophically implode is the question.
As I understand it they are risking that even if the major AI labs fail all the compute capacity that's been built out will remain in demand at sufficiently high prices.
> Where are those 99$ coming from?
If this isn't a house of cards, AI companies' customers. The companies and individauls ponying up for a Claude subscription or compute through OpenRouter.
Customer financing isn't inherently fucked. It's just highly suspect at the scale Nvidia's doing it. There was another thread where I noted that Nvidia's investments are literally monetarily significant, to the point that I expect them to start being directly referenced in the Fed's beige book [1].
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49673871
> Where are those 99$ coming from? Who is actually paying this money?
Companies who pay 99$ to make >99$ in return. I am not saying it works in all cases but that's the idea when you pay for stuff as a Company.
> Because it seems like so far everybody is losing money with no reversal of this trend in sight
I am not sure what you are seeing. Anthropic (as one of only two major companies that do just AI) is starting to return profits, while demand for AI is accelerating and, clearly, compute is maxed out. And I mean: On the entire planet. They are turning profits despite being in full buildout mode.
>Who is actually paying this money?
You, when their circular financing scheme fails and you're the one left holding the bag as your government says "they're too important to let them fail".
Inflated valuations, mostly.
The current valuations are only inflated until they're not. Especially if the big American labs can convince the US government to work out a joint "AI non-proliferation" agreement with China which will allow both countries to essentially carve up and techno-colonize the rest of the world without any other competition except between themselves.
We're already seeing signs of this strategy from Open AI and Anthropic warning about the dangers of AI and the need for safety regulations. None of that stuff matters if China is not also on board with it.
> The current valuations are only inflated until they're not
You could say that about any historically inflated valuation all the way back to the tulip mania. Either the expected profit materializes or it doesn't.
> We're already seeing signs of this strategy from Open AI and Anthropic warning about the dangers of AI and the need for safety regulations
I would read this as a desire to pause training to be able to present a profit in anticipation of the IPO. The major AI labs mad scramble to IPO is if anything a sign that they aren't at all confident in the valuation. If they were they would be no hurry to cash out.
You do realise it’s not a fixed pie right?
Well, it is. Thermodynamics. Earth is pretty much a closed system, except for the sun.
So for example if you invest $100 in a farm and get a return of 10%, where does that come from? The nutrients in the soil, the effort expended by the workers, and the power of the sun to turn seeds into food. All value comes either from finite resources in the ground (nuclear, oil, ...), from solar power, or from human effort (work, innovations, etc.)
So can you trace back Nvidia's incredible 10000% return on investment to any of these sources? Which ones?
I always here how Nvidia's investment "scheme" is like previous company X that was destroyed using said scheme.
But its quite obvious that while there are some similarities its simply not the same. Most analysis, so it seems, are quite surface.
Are there any deeper finical analysis on the investments of Nvidia and how they are financed?
It is a bit circular but it also a growing real market. NVIDIA is accelerating the market and also making money. It is a smart strategy on their part.
We are not at the top of this trend yet so I do not see this as over investment.
I remember the criticism Microsoft got for investing in Facebook/Meta that gave them a whooping $15B valuation and getting 1.7% in 2007. Not all deals will turn out that prescient but a few will and make up for any duds. This is a real market.
> It is a smart strategy on their part.
No, it's a high risk gamble.
If the market grows enough they will win the bet, but if the market doesn't or we get a recession that dries up capital they will be holding the bag.
> No, it's a high risk gamble.
Even in a recession I think the shift towards AI would just accelerate since it is usually cheaper than humans.
The real risk I feel if what if AI is too successful and there is a lack of human demand because of dropping wages/employment?
(Then I wonder if sentient robot demand will make up for it? Although I realize that veers into science fiction futures.)
> If the market grows enough they will win the bet
So for this to become true there are some number of jobs that that pay $N salary are replaced completely by LLMs that do the job for $N-0.01?
Is that what you mean by "market grows enough"
I don't know about $100 back ... but their profit margin is $0.90 on the gpu that is bought with the $1 they lend / swap for equity + they get ongoing interest / equity stake.
Its a mighty fine deal for Nvidia
They sell shovels in the gold rush and invest on the miners as well. The gold is the tokens . As long as the tokens are consumed,they are fine .
So if they just had spare 100 billion they could make 10 trillion? Sounds reasonable and plausible right? Sadly market manipulation is not being prosecuted.
After the downfall - it will be prosecutable. Of course before that we (simpletons) will have to pay for those companies to avoid “economic collapse”.
Those $99, where do they come from?
The future we want. Not the wasteful F-35 'Fat Amy' lemon future noone except the fighterjet mafia wants..
Shush there! Don't ask any difficult questions!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO5sxLapAts
The Fed is printing them. Just like they print all other money.
From the article:
> I put in one, and a hundred comes back.”
> The figure was rhetorical, not a disclosed 100-times investment return.
There's a lot more words in there, but it doesn't seem to say anything else.
are those 100$ in the room with us right now
They are definitely in NVIDIA’s own rooms! It’s like, they invest $1 in AI companies, that pay back NVIDIA $100 for GPUs. If you draw the lines you will see something that looks a bit like an ellipse. Or maybe a boomerang path. Or like, a 2d sphere. A bit frustrating we don’t have a simpler word for such a shape
I asked Astra to explain this and it thought for a really long time and then came back with this:
https://www.marginalia.nu/junk/financing.png
That’s hilarious, I wish HN rendered pictures just for that one!
nvidia invests $1 in AI company , datacenters with GPUs , AI company / datacenters buy $x worth of GPUs from NVIDIA , in a circle
Isn't vendor financing a common business practice to finance the cost of equipment? What makes it nefarious in this instance?
Like a grade school student claiming they peed for 10 minutes straight yesterday
Woah, better than Madoff! How can i give him money?
Amazed by these comments?
Yes, it seems very possible to me that Nvidia makes a lot of money. They are literally the largest company in the world.
Who pays? Only all the companies, desperately raising as much capital as possible, issuing new stock to do it, going for unprecedented investment rounds, burning cash reserves to fund the largest data centre rollout in history.
Who builds the things that go into said datacenters? The thing that has also raised in price dramatically in recent years?
It is always about scale. At scale today's Nvidia does anything is so big that 100x is not anymore reasonable. Or then it is not significant...
From sub million to hundreds of millions I could theoretically see. Even tens of millions to billions. And even then I would be extremely skeptical.
But with Nvidia we are talking somewhere in the scale at tens or hundreds of billions. And that is actually very large sums of money. Even if it often does not look like it.
The only metric by which they are the largest company in the world is valuation. There are thousands of companies more important to your daily existence than Jensen's leather jacket factory.
They are also talking out of their asses, as they are massively overselling their capacity, and everyone is on a 5 to 10 year backlog.
In a very narrow sense it may be true that Nvidia expects to make some multiple of the money invested (unlikely to be 100x but whatever). But you can't talk about that without talking about the wider economy. If the wider economy, and especially the pension funds putting money into the scheme, cannot sustain this, it'll eventually collapse and then everyone including Nvidia will lose lots and lots of money.
100$ for every 1$ invested would definitely be branded as a ponzi scheme if it was done by a regular Joe
10,000% growth! No way that could be wild claim! How dare we doubt them.
You see, it's not a circle, it's a pyramid! Just buy in right now and you'll get unprecedented returns! Nothing could possibly go wrong!
My name is Charles Ponzi and I approve of this message.
Reads like satire. "I get 100$ for every 1$ I put in" is exactly the kind of phrase that triggers ponzi alarm bells on anybody reading this x)
Nvidia is full of shit. Leatherman thinks Astra = AGI.
So for every trillion that was invested, 100 trillion were made. Got it.