There's a huge amount of confirmation bias in the process of diagnosing musculoskeletal conditions based on imaging studies. When a patient presents with a complaint about pain or lack of mobility then the care team will order imaging, and when they see some anatomic abnormality they'll assume it's causing the symptoms and needs to be surgically repaired. But studies have shown that if we perform the same imaging studies on a random population of subjects we'll find a lot of abnormalities and yet most of those subjects are asymptomatic.
This is a huge problem in US health care financing: we have a fee-for-service model, no price transparency, and a consumer base (insulated from a lot of the costs of procedures by indirect payment through employer-provided insurance) conditioned to think procedures are inherently good. We waste billions annually on procedures that shouldn't be delivered at all.
I'm fond of pointing out the stat (true as of a year ago) that Massachusetts (I think it's MA?) has more MRI machines than the entire country of Canada.
I would posit this is more of a function of Canada having too few machines, with a median wait of 10 weeks for an MRI. [1]
To me it's crazy that people are waiting an average of nearly 3 months to get imaging. This is probably after waiting a couple months for their doctor's appointment to get the MRI scheduled in the first place.
>"I'm fond of pointing out the stat (true as of a year ago) that Massachusetts (I think it's MA?) has more MRI machines than the entire country of Canada."
Long wait times (6-12 months+) for MRIs (due to a lack of both machines and technicians) are a frequent complaint by Canadians.
Yep. Wealthy Canadians often come to the USA as medical tourists and pay cash to skip the queue at home for elective procedures like MRIs or joint replacements.
> I'm fond of pointing out the stat (true as of a year ago) that Massachusetts (I think it's MA?) has more MRI machines than the entire country of Canada.
I'm also quite fond of pointing out that Canada and the state of California have roughly the same populations.
Canada's population is incredibly spread out, but also concentrated in about 5 major cities.
When I needed an MRI on my brain is was roughly a week, and that was in a smaller (under 100K people) city.
It's a triage system, although I wouldn't want to suffer through a "less important" issue.
To be fair to your latter point, Massachusetts is arguably the biomedical research capital of the world, those MRI machines are being put to research purposes.
I’m reminded of a quote from my biomed days: “If there’s ever a zombie apocalypse, you can bet it started in Cambridge.”
I just thought it an amusing anecdote until COVID, and then realized it’s less that said virus would be developed here and more that we have the business idiots to let it loose.
Careful which Cambridge you are on about. I take you are referring to Cambridge MA, US and not Cambridge, Cambridgeshire off of England, UK.
I'll note that COVID-19 "broke out" in Wuhan a city which has a virology laboratory nearby - the Wuhan Institute of Virology, who perform research on viruses.
I'm sure that is completely incidental to the pandemic of 2020-21. Clearly, some rather nasty live food markets are to blame.
It wasn't your numpties wot did it then, it was another lot that time!
It's not strictly a US health care problem either - I've been dumbfounded by foreign coworkers pressing for totally unnecessary medical interventions as if there's no risk associated with doing such things. It's most apparent from the socialized states where the healthcare is ~free.
My impression is this is a modern civilization stupidity in general.
People love to complain about health insurance companies denying claims and prior authorization requests. While there are frequent errors and abuses on the payer side, the reality is that about a fifth of all treatments are "low value care" which aren't justified by evidence-based clinical practice guidelines and may even harm patients. If we want to reduce healthcare costs and improve outcomes then we've got to get that under control.
As someone who's going to the doctor next week to discuss potential shoulder surgery, this is timely.
I really need to figure out whether it's going to make things better or worse, but unfortunately, that feels like something a doctor can't guarantee one way or the other.
Any anecdotes or other experiences/thoughts are appreciated.
One thing that bodybuilding taught me is to never underestimate how significantly you can change how your body works through weight training, mobility work and physical therapy.
I used to suffer from chronic low back pain. It hurt to get out of bed every day for years. 1-2 years after getting into bodybuilding the pain disappeared and didn’t come back. Not only that, but I’m not physically limited by my back whatsoever.
I’m not suggesting you start bodybuilding. But the things I think that helped was 1) weight training, 2) mobility work / stretching, 3) physical therapy. That combo can be really powerful.
Yes me too! I used to have back problems all the time, sometimes it would give out for no reason and I'm stuck in bed for a week. I started lifting from nothing, just the 45lb barbell, using a simple program called Stronglifts. That was probably 10 years ago, I have had some ups and downs of course, but overall my back has been solid since.
My mother-in-law has spinal surgery last christmas, the pain for her, prior to the surgery, was unbearable so it's hard to justify not running from that into the arms of a surgeon. The surgeon showed exactly what was to repair though so it was simple enough to understand and clear in the way it was going to help her.
About 9 months out from that surgery and she doesn't have anymore pain.
Anecdote:
My dad has had two shoulder surgeries, one to repair his rotator cuff +15 years ago on his right arm, one back in March of this year on his other shoulder. I couldn’t tell you what specifically was wrong with it this time.
He was a regular golfer until last year when the pain got too bad to play through. He just started playing golf again at the beginning of September. He told me after three or so rounds he can’t even tell he had surgery or any previous pain in that shoulder.
He’s had one doctor do his knee surgery and the aforementioned shoulder surgery and he’s really happy with all of their work.
I hope you have as good of an experience as my dad has had.
The question you want to ask is what is the long-term outcome. In 10-20 years time will you have better usage of the shoulder with or without the surgery?
As an anecdote: Family member has a partial lateral meniscus tear in the knee. Surgery was considered as if successful then returning to running might have been possible. Specialist opinions varied as did their reading of the MRI scans.
After a lot of research there was emerging evidence that long-term, surgery was more likely to result in osteoarthritis. So had to weight up long-term mobility over short-term pain relief and not having a major lifestyle change.
You see professional athlete undergoing surgery the next day, but their income relies on regaining usage as quickly as possible. The alternative is physio exercises to strengthen the supporting muscles and avoiding anything that might cause a re-injury.
Go see a specialist sports doctor. They deal with lots of these types of injuries. My physio sent me to one when I did my shoulder in a motorcycle accident and for my case, the data showed that it was better not to operate.
Obviously, don't take medical advice on HN too seriously, but my uncle had shoulder surgery and was happy with the results. I have heard many more complaints about back surgeries making things worse than shoulders.
However, if available I would try to find a good Pilates/dance/sports instructor that has a Gyrotonic machine, which is built for repairing and strengthening shoulder muscles. I had debilitating back issues from sitting in a chair all day and a good instructor fixed it over a year through low impact Pilates. YMMV and group classes tend to be ineffective because so much of it is doing the exercises precisely correct - they were built for injury recovery
exercises that place the arm above the head become difficult if not impossible after some shoulder surgeries. these exercises position the shoulder in a comfortable locked in position. training in this position (eg. pull-ups) serves to strengthen muscles like the lats, which in turn support the shoulder in its resting position. i cant say avoiding surgery is fool proof - there is a markedly higher risk of dislocating, and many exercises (eg. bench press) become impossible with a loose shoulder joint. but personally i dont care, my destroyed shoulder becomes fixed after consistent pull-up training, do not see a need to lose half a year in recovery atm.
As someone with herniated discs, spinal stenosis, degenerative disc disease and scoliosis for decades, who's already had surgery but still got worse... what else even is there besides more surgery?
I can't wave a magic wand and just put more space between my discs... that's the only thing that's going to ease off my pain as far as I'm aware.
This missing bit is that many people are pain free with the same scans as you have. Surgery does help people, but it’s clear that the signals we use to say surgery is needed are very noisy and not as accurate as the surgeons would have you think.
IIRC, besides being pain caused by physical problems, it can also be pain caused by nerve issues (slightly different), and pain caused by your brain (very different, could be multiple causes there).
If surgery doesn't help, and/or like the other commenter mentioned, people with similar physical characteristics don't have pain, then it's time to explore the other two.
I'm sorry you're suffering. There are several regenerative approaches getting ever closer which will be able to help your body re-grow cartilage. Hopefully they'll be FDA approved sooner than later.
I have been trying many different types and combinations of stretches and various prolonged physical therapies (in-office and not) for many years... unfortunately nothing has ever helped, not even the McGill Big 3.
Sitting and laying is fine, but walking I can manage maybe 10 minutes max before it starts to hurt, and only gets worse quickly from there. Then I must rest for at least as long as I was walking to get another 10 or so minutes.
Sometimes manually stretching my spine out can help reset that time limit (like lay down with knees up and push down on my thighs to stretch it, it usually pops), but it's only temporary.
If I'm walking on uneven terrain then my muscles go into wild inflammation mode and are hard as rocks... on top of the spinal/nerve pain.
Well, sample size of 1 but a family member was in debilitating pain all the time until they had a couple vertebrae fused. They can walk and life is mostly normal for them now.
I am one of those people. Obviously the example says nothing about the norm. The article was behind a pay wall so I didn't read it. But the title is about an insanely broad set of surgeries. Bet there is a lot of nuance within.
(Below has nothing to do with people who need surgery due to catastrophic injury or congenital defect.)
Most surgeries are followed by more surgeries.
And the hard truth is that most surgeries happen because most people do not have the discipline to do what's needed over many months to solve the problems they are having with the chronic pain they are in. They want a faster solution and are never really told by anyone that the only real permanent solution is one that will be difficult and take months.
Rather than change their habits and their environments and their bodies, people opt to do things that have surprisingly low rates of success and more often than not result in a state than can never be fixed.
Some people get past the point of no return. For those people, surgery may be the only option. But for most people the only real option is a change in lifestyle that is more or less like deciding you are going to get very fit. It takes months and in the mean time, theres a lot of effort and discomfort.
In addition, most people don't really get how much of their back pain and ailment is due to ergonomics. That their bed is wrong. That they are sitting in a bad office chair or couch.
But more than that, most people don't get how central exercise and core strength are for maintaining the health of your back.
So before you get back surgery, consider getting a new office chair, exercising more, and facing that pain for a few more months. Work toward a real solution.
There is an even stronger version of your argument, one that works without shifting to the same old "you don't need the expensive stuff, just get your life together" advice that already has kind of a bad rep for not fixing depression. You can accept that you cannot inject much more of necessary discipline and motivation into people after they leave school.. and still argue against many types of surgery in mostly the same way: by strictly comparing them to other costly endeavors that could bring about those probably-helpful life changes. Many more people could work towards that "real solution" by benefiting from some other spending.. which merely happens to be cheaper than surgery, while still not being entirely up to them.
Example: My town installed an outdoor "grown-up playground" in the nearby park. Probably cost a little over two complicated surgeries. Already saved 10 people from neglecting upper body workout. Just 10 people having a really low-barrier-of-entry gym available to them whenever walking their dog. I suspect its already been cost-effective. Plus, it is reusable and low-maintenance. Try to beat that in the operating room!
It’s worth recalling that a large (possibly majority) share of the population has extreme limits on their time imposed by economics.
While I’m fortunate now to be able to dedicate time to the gym and other physical fitness, this was not always the case.
We lack the societal incentive structure to allow someone working 60-80 hours a week to reduce their workload to physically recover. We do allow that same person to spend 5-10 years income on surgeries which have 4-6 week recovery times.
There's a huge amount of confirmation bias in the process of diagnosing musculoskeletal conditions based on imaging studies. When a patient presents with a complaint about pain or lack of mobility then the care team will order imaging, and when they see some anatomic abnormality they'll assume it's causing the symptoms and needs to be surgically repaired. But studies have shown that if we perform the same imaging studies on a random population of subjects we'll find a lot of abnormalities and yet most of those subjects are asymptomatic.
This is a huge problem in US health care financing: we have a fee-for-service model, no price transparency, and a consumer base (insulated from a lot of the costs of procedures by indirect payment through employer-provided insurance) conditioned to think procedures are inherently good. We waste billions annually on procedures that shouldn't be delivered at all.
I'm fond of pointing out the stat (true as of a year ago) that Massachusetts (I think it's MA?) has more MRI machines than the entire country of Canada.
I would posit this is more of a function of Canada having too few machines, with a median wait of 10 weeks for an MRI. [1]
To me it's crazy that people are waiting an average of nearly 3 months to get imaging. This is probably after waiting a couple months for their doctor's appointment to get the MRI scheduled in the first place.
[1] [https://getmrifast.ca/mri-wait-times]
>"I'm fond of pointing out the stat (true as of a year ago) that Massachusetts (I think it's MA?) has more MRI machines than the entire country of Canada."
Long wait times (6-12 months+) for MRIs (due to a lack of both machines and technicians) are a frequent complaint by Canadians.
Yep. Wealthy Canadians often come to the USA as medical tourists and pay cash to skip the queue at home for elective procedures like MRIs or joint replacements.
No you dont understand this is a huge problem in american healthcare cus america bad
I think the actual issue is that America often has infinite wait times because people can't afford the procedure.
> I'm fond of pointing out the stat (true as of a year ago) that Massachusetts (I think it's MA?) has more MRI machines than the entire country of Canada.
I'm also quite fond of pointing out that Canada and the state of California have roughly the same populations.
Canada's population is incredibly spread out, but also concentrated in about 5 major cities.
When I needed an MRI on my brain is was roughly a week, and that was in a smaller (under 100K people) city.
It's a triage system, although I wouldn't want to suffer through a "less important" issue.
At least most medications and interventions have to go through RCTs and tend to be quite standardized.
Don't even get me started with mental health therapy...
To be fair to your latter point, Massachusetts is arguably the biomedical research capital of the world, those MRI machines are being put to research purposes.
I’m reminded of a quote from my biomed days: “If there’s ever a zombie apocalypse, you can bet it started in Cambridge.”
I just thought it an amusing anecdote until COVID, and then realized it’s less that said virus would be developed here and more that we have the business idiots to let it loose.
Careful which Cambridge you are on about. I take you are referring to Cambridge MA, US and not Cambridge, Cambridgeshire off of England, UK.
I'll note that COVID-19 "broke out" in Wuhan a city which has a virology laboratory nearby - the Wuhan Institute of Virology, who perform research on viruses.
I'm sure that is completely incidental to the pandemic of 2020-21. Clearly, some rather nasty live food markets are to blame.
It wasn't your numpties wot did it then, it was another lot that time!
There’s no evidence that Covid started in wuhan. The wet market was ruled out.
That's an odd point to make when in the actual world we live in, Cambridge was where the first COVID vaccine was developed.
It's not strictly a US health care problem either - I've been dumbfounded by foreign coworkers pressing for totally unnecessary medical interventions as if there's no risk associated with doing such things. It's most apparent from the socialized states where the healthcare is ~free.
My impression is this is a modern civilization stupidity in general.
apropos Dead Kennedys track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVULKYbAeEo
People love to complain about health insurance companies denying claims and prior authorization requests. While there are frequent errors and abuses on the payer side, the reality is that about a fifth of all treatments are "low value care" which aren't justified by evidence-based clinical practice guidelines and may even harm patients. If we want to reduce healthcare costs and improve outcomes then we've got to get that under control.
https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/price-we-pay-9781635574128/
As someone who's going to the doctor next week to discuss potential shoulder surgery, this is timely.
I really need to figure out whether it's going to make things better or worse, but unfortunately, that feels like something a doctor can't guarantee one way or the other.
Any anecdotes or other experiences/thoughts are appreciated.
One thing that bodybuilding taught me is to never underestimate how significantly you can change how your body works through weight training, mobility work and physical therapy.
I used to suffer from chronic low back pain. It hurt to get out of bed every day for years. 1-2 years after getting into bodybuilding the pain disappeared and didn’t come back. Not only that, but I’m not physically limited by my back whatsoever.
I’m not suggesting you start bodybuilding. But the things I think that helped was 1) weight training, 2) mobility work / stretching, 3) physical therapy. That combo can be really powerful.
Yes me too! I used to have back problems all the time, sometimes it would give out for no reason and I'm stuck in bed for a week. I started lifting from nothing, just the 45lb barbell, using a simple program called Stronglifts. That was probably 10 years ago, I have had some ups and downs of course, but overall my back has been solid since.
Single anecdata here.
My mother-in-law has spinal surgery last christmas, the pain for her, prior to the surgery, was unbearable so it's hard to justify not running from that into the arms of a surgeon. The surgeon showed exactly what was to repair though so it was simple enough to understand and clear in the way it was going to help her.
About 9 months out from that surgery and she doesn't have anymore pain.
Anecdote: My dad has had two shoulder surgeries, one to repair his rotator cuff +15 years ago on his right arm, one back in March of this year on his other shoulder. I couldn’t tell you what specifically was wrong with it this time.
He was a regular golfer until last year when the pain got too bad to play through. He just started playing golf again at the beginning of September. He told me after three or so rounds he can’t even tell he had surgery or any previous pain in that shoulder.
He’s had one doctor do his knee surgery and the aforementioned shoulder surgery and he’s really happy with all of their work.
I hope you have as good of an experience as my dad has had.
The question you want to ask is what is the long-term outcome. In 10-20 years time will you have better usage of the shoulder with or without the surgery?
As an anecdote: Family member has a partial lateral meniscus tear in the knee. Surgery was considered as if successful then returning to running might have been possible. Specialist opinions varied as did their reading of the MRI scans.
After a lot of research there was emerging evidence that long-term, surgery was more likely to result in osteoarthritis. So had to weight up long-term mobility over short-term pain relief and not having a major lifestyle change.
You see professional athlete undergoing surgery the next day, but their income relies on regaining usage as quickly as possible. The alternative is physio exercises to strengthen the supporting muscles and avoiding anything that might cause a re-injury.
Go see a specialist sports doctor. They deal with lots of these types of injuries. My physio sent me to one when I did my shoulder in a motorcycle accident and for my case, the data showed that it was better not to operate.
Obviously, don't take medical advice on HN too seriously, but my uncle had shoulder surgery and was happy with the results. I have heard many more complaints about back surgeries making things worse than shoulders.
However, if available I would try to find a good Pilates/dance/sports instructor that has a Gyrotonic machine, which is built for repairing and strengthening shoulder muscles. I had debilitating back issues from sitting in a chair all day and a good instructor fixed it over a year through low impact Pilates. YMMV and group classes tend to be ineffective because so much of it is doing the exercises precisely correct - they were built for injury recovery
> Obviously, don't take medical advice on HN too seriously
100%. But I do like to hear anecdotes, since I know no one personally that's had shoulder surgery.
But agree that everyone's different, and everyone's experiences are different, so I take it with a grain of salt for sure.
But still appreciated!
I had a remplessage in February and I’m probably at 80% mobility now.
Previously if I coughed my arm would fall entirely out of socket and I would need a propfol shot to allow the doc to relax it to get it back in.
In my case I was basically immobilized and in excruciating pain and fear 100% of my day.
Now thats only like 50% of the day
exercises that place the arm above the head become difficult if not impossible after some shoulder surgeries. these exercises position the shoulder in a comfortable locked in position. training in this position (eg. pull-ups) serves to strengthen muscles like the lats, which in turn support the shoulder in its resting position. i cant say avoiding surgery is fool proof - there is a markedly higher risk of dislocating, and many exercises (eg. bench press) become impossible with a loose shoulder joint. but personally i dont care, my destroyed shoulder becomes fixed after consistent pull-up training, do not see a need to lose half a year in recovery atm.
Here’s the accompanying article from the Science & Tech section.
https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2026/09/23/...
Gift link: https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2026/09/23/...
Surgeons often jump too quickly to the knife. Effective physical therapy or lifestyle adjustments frequently offer superior, less invasive outcomes.
As someone with herniated discs, spinal stenosis, degenerative disc disease and scoliosis for decades, who's already had surgery but still got worse... what else even is there besides more surgery?
I can't wave a magic wand and just put more space between my discs... that's the only thing that's going to ease off my pain as far as I'm aware.
This missing bit is that many people are pain free with the same scans as you have. Surgery does help people, but it’s clear that the signals we use to say surgery is needed are very noisy and not as accurate as the surgeons would have you think.
IIRC, besides being pain caused by physical problems, it can also be pain caused by nerve issues (slightly different), and pain caused by your brain (very different, could be multiple causes there).
If surgery doesn't help, and/or like the other commenter mentioned, people with similar physical characteristics don't have pain, then it's time to explore the other two.
I'm sorry you're suffering. There are several regenerative approaches getting ever closer which will be able to help your body re-grow cartilage. Hopefully they'll be FDA approved sooner than later.
Physical therapy helps. Check this out https://youtu.be/n9CDhcVTAdc and https://youtu.be/k1luKAS_Xcg (I only started paying attention after my emergency back surgery)
I have been trying many different types and combinations of stretches and various prolonged physical therapies (in-office and not) for many years... unfortunately nothing has ever helped, not even the McGill Big 3.
Sitting and laying is fine, but walking I can manage maybe 10 minutes max before it starts to hurt, and only gets worse quickly from there. Then I must rest for at least as long as I was walking to get another 10 or so minutes.
Sometimes manually stretching my spine out can help reset that time limit (like lay down with knees up and push down on my thighs to stretch it, it usually pops), but it's only temporary.
If I'm walking on uneven terrain then my muscles go into wild inflammation mode and are hard as rocks... on top of the spinal/nerve pain.
Well, sample size of 1 but a family member was in debilitating pain all the time until they had a couple vertebrae fused. They can walk and life is mostly normal for them now.
I am one of those people. Obviously the example says nothing about the norm. The article was behind a pay wall so I didn't read it. But the title is about an insanely broad set of surgeries. Bet there is a lot of nuance within.
(Below has nothing to do with people who need surgery due to catastrophic injury or congenital defect.)
Most surgeries are followed by more surgeries.
And the hard truth is that most surgeries happen because most people do not have the discipline to do what's needed over many months to solve the problems they are having with the chronic pain they are in. They want a faster solution and are never really told by anyone that the only real permanent solution is one that will be difficult and take months.
Rather than change their habits and their environments and their bodies, people opt to do things that have surprisingly low rates of success and more often than not result in a state than can never be fixed.
Some people get past the point of no return. For those people, surgery may be the only option. But for most people the only real option is a change in lifestyle that is more or less like deciding you are going to get very fit. It takes months and in the mean time, theres a lot of effort and discomfort.
In addition, most people don't really get how much of their back pain and ailment is due to ergonomics. That their bed is wrong. That they are sitting in a bad office chair or couch.
But more than that, most people don't get how central exercise and core strength are for maintaining the health of your back.
So before you get back surgery, consider getting a new office chair, exercising more, and facing that pain for a few more months. Work toward a real solution.
There is an even stronger version of your argument, one that works without shifting to the same old "you don't need the expensive stuff, just get your life together" advice that already has kind of a bad rep for not fixing depression. You can accept that you cannot inject much more of necessary discipline and motivation into people after they leave school.. and still argue against many types of surgery in mostly the same way: by strictly comparing them to other costly endeavors that could bring about those probably-helpful life changes. Many more people could work towards that "real solution" by benefiting from some other spending.. which merely happens to be cheaper than surgery, while still not being entirely up to them.
Example: My town installed an outdoor "grown-up playground" in the nearby park. Probably cost a little over two complicated surgeries. Already saved 10 people from neglecting upper body workout. Just 10 people having a really low-barrier-of-entry gym available to them whenever walking their dog. I suspect its already been cost-effective. Plus, it is reusable and low-maintenance. Try to beat that in the operating room!
It’s worth recalling that a large (possibly majority) share of the population has extreme limits on their time imposed by economics.
While I’m fortunate now to be able to dedicate time to the gym and other physical fitness, this was not always the case.
We lack the societal incentive structure to allow someone working 60-80 hours a week to reduce their workload to physically recover. We do allow that same person to spend 5-10 years income on surgeries which have 4-6 week recovery times.
https://archive.is/j6oeD
Thanks - added above.
The same could be said about economist articles behind paywalls; worse than useless as it prevents linking to an article covering it at a different source. Perhaps https://www.unsw.edu.au/newsroom/news/2022/03/three-orthopae... or https://www.thetimes.com/life-style/health-fitness/article/h... instead
The latter link is also paywalled for me.