I couldn't see anything in the article about early vs late risers.
My impression when looking at this kind of research, is that it, like everything else around this subject in society. Is from the perspective. That early risers are the only valid type, and us late risers are anomolies, that should not be catered to, and our challenges are a moral failing.
For me living in Norway, one of the hardest things every fall, and that makes me depressed for weeks, is when one weekend, when the days are already getting shorter fast. One hour of evening day light gets janked overnight. It is horrific.
Anyone looking at this with an ounce of willingness to research it would have chosen permanent standard time but they never even offered that in any of the referendums across the provinces that switched. I'm getting the high end bright wake uplights for my kids this winter. Pretty annoying.
Both are the same. You either change the clock twice a year or you don't. Society will adapt to it either way.
With standard time you eat at 12 and with daylight saving you eat at 1, either way you eat when the sun is highest or around that time.
The thing is that the biannual dance of the clock hands wrecks any notion of time and schedules as this month you eat/wake up/leave work too early and the next too late.
All of the science supports permanent daylight time.
Even this article, while stating the opposite conclusion, directly scientifically supports permanent daylight time as beneficial for most people.
It points out sunrise being at 0751 versus 0851 for Toronto. That's the anticipated sunrise time on 1 January 2027. The anticipated sunset time is 1651.
That means that someone working in a cubicle for a standard 0800-1700 schedule will get 9 minutes of possible daylight under winter time, versus 51 minutes under daylight time (sunrise 0851, sunset 1751).
Lack of sunlight leads to terrible circadian rhythms. There is absolutely zero scientific support for the proposition that nine minutes of daylight is healthier for our circadian rhythms than fifty-one minutes of daylight. No person could possibly argue such a thing in good faith.
(Also, I have a terminology quibble with "Standard Time," since Daylight Time is the actual standard, and we observe it eight months of the year.)
You can have (almost) permanent daylight time - you just have to relocate regularly between (let's say) Iceland and the southern tip of South America. Or even further north/south for even more daylight (albeit even lower temperatures).
Just curious. Do you prefer then daylight during early morning rather then in the afternoon?
It’s interesting for me because early morning means for me: dealing with duties (prepare for school, commute to work, etc) so I don’t really mind doing that in the dark. But afternoon time means for me: free time (school/work is finished ) So if there’s daylight I can decide to go to the park, or play outside, or go to a terrace to eat something. Doing that in the dark is just not feasible
If we’re going to adopt unnatural time standards to manipulate people, like permanent DST, let’s at least do something interesting like China does and set the whole country to one time zone. At least that way we can all ignore the “official” time and set business hours to whatever works best.
People don't even know if it's currently daylight savings time or not, and I certainly don't. All I care about is whether or not I need to change the hours. And I think most people care about that too. They don't really care about the label. They just don't wanna have to change the time every year.
I live in Ireland too, and I would hate permanent DST in the winter. I have to get my kids to school in the morning and the sun is just barely rising in the winter months by the time I drop them off. If I had to wake them and drop them to school in the pitch black I would lose my mind.
By the time it's winter it's dark in the morning regardless of DST. Still can be a pain in Autumn I'm sure, the cold wet mornings for me are tough regardless.
The age old morning people versus evening people. Sounds like the kids aren't morning people either.
This doesn't really match my experience living in Canada. Most people I speak to in the winter are most concerned about losing an hour of daylight in the evenings - the immediate darkness after work is obvious after the change.
Discussions on daylight savings time are pointless without stating your lattitude.
[Here in London at 51 Deg North, DST is much more relevent and appreciated when the summer sun rises so early, and the winter sun so late; it helps keep ones body somewhat in line with nature].
Latitude is only half the picture, when someone wakes up and how they spend their days also matters. I was really unhappy with DST when I had to wake up at an ungodly hour to school in the dark most of the year (except for the few days/weeks in March before the clock change).
Not only that but east-west position in the time zone. That’s the problem with DST… those on the west side of a time zone are going to work and school in complete darkness. We’ve tried this before and it was a disaster.
I used to live in Spain, about one time zone West of Greenwich, but the actual time was set one hour East of Greenwich. A two hour difference.
That is to say, in winter we would wake up in pitch black darkness, commute in the dark, and the sun would finally rise while we were at school. It sucked. When I moved to London I was shocked to see how bright it was in the mornings because of that, even in winter.
How about, pick a time and stick with it. Then, if it turns out people should be getting up with the sun, we change the stupid school and business hours to accommodate humans?
I never really understood why not just shift schedule. Set a certain date and move all schedules of public institutions. Inform this early enough to allow rest who want to follow. Then later fix as needed.
I fully support permanently moving to correct time. Meaning not summer time. And then just fixing schedules as needed.
The _other_ option is to shift, perhaps in two x half-hour stages over a month or longer, but around the equinoxes - the 'standard operating hours' for services and businesses.
This is often overlooked as an alternative to shifting everyone's timepiece at the same instant -- I've never understood why there's so much much emotion and/or inertia around clock changes.
I'd much prefer this option; businesses open an hour after sunrise, close an hour before sunset. That's more natural and human, to actually follow nature's cues.
But you know, why inconvenience social constructs for wealth generation when you can just literally inconvenience every human alive instead?
Open-access link to the study in the Canadian Medical Association Journal:
> In this analysis, we focus not on whether seasonal clock adjustments should end, but on which policy should be adopted if time changes are eliminated. We explore the public health implications of pDST and pST — with attention to mental health and broader determinants of health — and propose measures to monitor and mitigate the impacts of policy change on population health.
I don’t get it. Every time-change feels like such a huge relief to me.
In the fall, it means brighter mornings, making getting up so much easier for the entire family. It’s worth giving up the evening light so we’re not waiting for the morning schoolbus in the dark.
And likewise; I don’t want it to be sunny at 4am in June.
Yeah. I think we need to get back to a life that revolves around natural cycles and healthy circadian rhythms. It’s stupid that I have to get up in the dark to take my kid to school. Unquestionably, my kid should be sleeping until the light naturally wakes her.
I couldn't see anything in the article about early vs late risers. My impression when looking at this kind of research, is that it, like everything else around this subject in society. Is from the perspective. That early risers are the only valid type, and us late risers are anomolies, that should not be catered to, and our challenges are a moral failing.
For me living in Norway, one of the hardest things every fall, and that makes me depressed for weeks, is when one weekend, when the days are already getting shorter fast. One hour of evening day light gets janked overnight. It is horrific.
Permanent whatever time is better than changing times. Standard or daylight saving doesn't matter, society will adapt schedules to either.
Anyone looking at this with an ounce of willingness to research it would have chosen permanent standard time but they never even offered that in any of the referendums across the provinces that switched. I'm getting the high end bright wake uplights for my kids this winter. Pretty annoying.
Nobody wants permanent standard time. People want later daylight hours in the evening. All of the science behind it be damned.
Both are the same. You either change the clock twice a year or you don't. Society will adapt to it either way.
With standard time you eat at 12 and with daylight saving you eat at 1, either way you eat when the sun is highest or around that time.
The thing is that the biannual dance of the clock hands wrecks any notion of time and schedules as this month you eat/wake up/leave work too early and the next too late.
All of the science supports permanent daylight time.
Even this article, while stating the opposite conclusion, directly scientifically supports permanent daylight time as beneficial for most people.
It points out sunrise being at 0751 versus 0851 for Toronto. That's the anticipated sunrise time on 1 January 2027. The anticipated sunset time is 1651.
That means that someone working in a cubicle for a standard 0800-1700 schedule will get 9 minutes of possible daylight under winter time, versus 51 minutes under daylight time (sunrise 0851, sunset 1751).
Lack of sunlight leads to terrible circadian rhythms. There is absolutely zero scientific support for the proposition that nine minutes of daylight is healthier for our circadian rhythms than fifty-one minutes of daylight. No person could possibly argue such a thing in good faith.
(Also, I have a terminology quibble with "Standard Time," since Daylight Time is the actual standard, and we observe it eight months of the year.)
Why is that the “standard” work schedule? Isn’t that the problem, not the fact that noon happens at noon?
You can have (almost) permanent daylight time - you just have to relocate regularly between (let's say) Iceland and the southern tip of South America. Or even further north/south for even more daylight (albeit even lower temperatures).
Based on what exactly?!
“Nobody”
My entire household wants it.
Just curious. Do you prefer then daylight during early morning rather then in the afternoon?
It’s interesting for me because early morning means for me: dealing with duties (prepare for school, commute to work, etc) so I don’t really mind doing that in the dark. But afternoon time means for me: free time (school/work is finished ) So if there’s daylight I can decide to go to the park, or play outside, or go to a terrace to eat something. Doing that in the dark is just not feasible
I want permanent standard time
If we’re going to adopt unnatural time standards to manipulate people, like permanent DST, let’s at least do something interesting like China does and set the whole country to one time zone. At least that way we can all ignore the “official” time and set business hours to whatever works best.
People don't even know if it's currently daylight savings time or not, and I certainly don't. All I care about is whether or not I need to change the hours. And I think most people care about that too. They don't really care about the label. They just don't wanna have to change the time every year.
It depends where you live. In Ireland it makes a world of difference if the sun sets before 5pm or 6pm.
Staying on Summer time means additional sun after work for an extra month. Can go for a walk or do something outside in the sun.
And for those further South it doesn't matter anyway.
I'd like to see what the additional vitamin D from that extra sun does to sleep etc. I imagine that's not part of the study.
I live in Ireland too, and I would hate permanent DST in the winter. I have to get my kids to school in the morning and the sun is just barely rising in the winter months by the time I drop them off. If I had to wake them and drop them to school in the pitch black I would lose my mind.
By the time it's winter it's dark in the morning regardless of DST. Still can be a pain in Autumn I'm sure, the cold wet mornings for me are tough regardless.
The age old morning people versus evening people. Sounds like the kids aren't morning people either.
and not only in ireland.
It is so depressing to wake up, go to work in the dark and go home in the dark.
This doesn't really match my experience living in Canada. Most people I speak to in the winter are most concerned about losing an hour of daylight in the evenings - the immediate darkness after work is obvious after the change.
100% agreed. Stick to either. Stop changing it.
> People don't even know if it's currently daylight savings time or not,
Can't blame em: Daylight Saving is a terrible name for something that happens during the time of year when there's more daylight
STOP.
Discussions on daylight savings time are pointless without stating your lattitude.
[Here in London at 51 Deg North, DST is much more relevent and appreciated when the summer sun rises so early, and the winter sun so late; it helps keep ones body somewhat in line with nature].
Latitude is only half the picture, when someone wakes up and how they spend their days also matters. I was really unhappy with DST when I had to wake up at an ungodly hour to school in the dark most of the year (except for the few days/weeks in March before the clock change).
Not only that but east-west position in the time zone. That’s the problem with DST… those on the west side of a time zone are going to work and school in complete darkness. We’ve tried this before and it was a disaster.
In this case, the analysis focuses on Canada, which does have a few population centres around the same latitude as London.
It's all relative to how much shifted you are to the solar time anyway.
Large areas in Europe are permanently away from solar time already (regardless of DST).
I used to live in Spain, about one time zone West of Greenwich, but the actual time was set one hour East of Greenwich. A two hour difference.
That is to say, in winter we would wake up in pitch black darkness, commute in the dark, and the sun would finally rise while we were at school. It sucked. When I moved to London I was shocked to see how bright it was in the mornings because of that, even in winter.
> in winter we would wake up in pitch black darkness, commute in the dark, and the sun would finally rise while we were at school. It sucked.
But you had that extra daylight time in the afternoon (which in London wouldn’t be the case). Wasnt that better? Just curious. For me it would be
How about, pick a time and stick with it. Then, if it turns out people should be getting up with the sun, we change the stupid school and business hours to accommodate humans?
I never really understood why not just shift schedule. Set a certain date and move all schedules of public institutions. Inform this early enough to allow rest who want to follow. Then later fix as needed.
I fully support permanently moving to correct time. Meaning not summer time. And then just fixing schedules as needed.
I agree. There is no reason we have to be at work 9-5 or eat dinner at 7, it's just convention.
In fact, I have considered whether it may not make sense to just have a single timezone. Would make planning internationally much easier.
The _other_ option is to shift, perhaps in two x half-hour stages over a month or longer, but around the equinoxes - the 'standard operating hours' for services and businesses.
This is often overlooked as an alternative to shifting everyone's timepiece at the same instant -- I've never understood why there's so much much emotion and/or inertia around clock changes.
I'd much prefer this option; businesses open an hour after sunrise, close an hour before sunset. That's more natural and human, to actually follow nature's cues.
But you know, why inconvenience social constructs for wealth generation when you can just literally inconvenience every human alive instead?
Open-access link to the study in the Canadian Medical Association Journal:
> In this analysis, we focus not on whether seasonal clock adjustments should end, but on which policy should be adopted if time changes are eliminated. We explore the public health implications of pDST and pST — with attention to mental health and broader determinants of health — and propose measures to monitor and mitigate the impacts of policy change on population health.
* https://www.cmaj.ca/content/198/34/E1335 / https://doi.org/10.1503/cmaj.261089
* PDF: https://www.cmaj.ca/content/cmaj/198/34/E1335.full.pdf
I don’t get it. Every time-change feels like such a huge relief to me.
In the fall, it means brighter mornings, making getting up so much easier for the entire family. It’s worth giving up the evening light so we’re not waiting for the morning schoolbus in the dark.
And likewise; I don’t want it to be sunny at 4am in June.
So changing the clock suits me perfectly.
For context: I’m at 45latitude (Toronto)
I want permanent standard time. Few people seem to prefer that, although it is apparently popular in some states not well represented online.
Can we just stop changing the clock?
Confoundingly, not having permanent daylight savings time could harm sleep and mental health, @inanutshellus says.
It turns out that humans evolved in hyper local environments and are not designed to serve the needs of corporations and schedules.
Yeah. I think we need to get back to a life that revolves around natural cycles and healthy circadian rhythms. It’s stupid that I have to get up in the dark to take my kid to school. Unquestionably, my kid should be sleeping until the light naturally wakes her.