Wow this is interesting to me from another angle. A friend of mine created a benchmark to evaluate LLMs on 9x9 Go (using KataGo opponents as Elo anchors) [1]. The relative rankings of this (StarSkirmish Bench v0.2) benchmark (GPT-6 Astra > GPT-6.1 Sol > Gemini 4 Argon > Claude Opus 5.5 > Claude Fable 5.1 > Claude Sonnet 5.5) matches the order of his GoBench rankings exactly, even though they are different problems at surface level.
Is there anything interesting to learn from the agent written bots? Or are they just inferior versions of the best bots because the time limit is so short? Is there any indication that they’re trained on the code from the human written bots (like, do they magically “guess” creating functionality that requires experimental feedback or domain experience?) How much are the bots on rails applying the same techniques every time?
I think those kinds of questions would be more interesting than the raw win/loss ratios.
I am not sure I like this benchmark, but mostly, because I am not sure what it is really evaluating. It is not an idle dismissal.. multiple factors seem to complicate what it is supposed to look at ( just top of my head ):
- code generation speed
- logic analysis
- understanding of the game platform and how use of C may influence it
- considered approaches, tactics and strategies
Don't get me wrong. It is is neat idea. I am just not sure what it measures.
All of the above, to the extent that they can be measured from a simple to verify end condition (stats, win rates, etc). Adaptability, ability to understand and progress on a task, and so on.
I noticed Pluto is running on a simple CPU? If so, that's very nice for future RTS games. You just ship (or use a server-client arch) a bunch of models of various difficulty levels to let players practice. Could we even get models tuned to specific campaign levels? I wonder how costly the creation of Pluto was.
If you are talking about take a screen shot, analyze move the window a bit, take another screenshot, move the window, repeat until they have seen enough of the map to make a decision, then decide what to click on, issue order.... this could absolutely be done. It's very similar to how LLM's have driven a car on a safe track.
But right now the response time would be so slow that the bot would not be close to competitive except with the most low level players. Especially because its hard to click on things that are moving at the same time as well.
Sometime soon, I'd like to see an LLM be competitive using only computer vision, mouse movement, and locked into a human possible number of actions per minute.
Even the most powerful frontier models on SOTA hardware are not fast enough for starcraft, which generally involves multiple informed decisions per second at peak moments.
You can train a specialized model for this, but a frontier model is ill-fitting.
How do they avoid the LLMs simply working with pre-training data? Which apparently they do, since the human written bots win. But it's a mystery, is what it is.
It's beyond insane that Astra achieves above 50%. Are models allowed to "play against" the specific bot they're up against? What explains the fact that it drops to single-digits against strong bots?
Yes during the 1 hour window they are allowed to play practice matches against opponents they are graded against - though they do not have access to their opponents source code.
They drop to single digits against the A tier and S tier bots because those bots are just generally harder opponents to beat.
There is currently an AI bot playing on the ladder in Korea and essentially it will nearly always win because it can micro every unit individually across the entire map. If a normal human can max out at hundreds of actions per minute, the bot can do thousands. Broodwar is so insanely difficult mechanically that there is no way for humans to compete. I imagine in a few months, maybe a year, it will be completely unbeatable.
Maybe because Protosses have been doing bad lately and need some help improving :) (won only 3 out of 22 ASL championships in the past 10 years)
On a more serious note: all three races play quite differently so it makes sense to focus on just one. And protoss is mechanically the easiest and most straightforward race: fewer but stronger units, a single worker can be used to build multiple buildings at once, versatile basic static defence
Wow this is interesting to me from another angle. A friend of mine created a benchmark to evaluate LLMs on 9x9 Go (using KataGo opponents as Elo anchors) [1]. The relative rankings of this (StarSkirmish Bench v0.2) benchmark (GPT-6 Astra > GPT-6.1 Sol > Gemini 4 Argon > Claude Opus 5.5 > Claude Fable 5.1 > Claude Sonnet 5.5) matches the order of his GoBench rankings exactly, even though they are different problems at surface level.
[1] https://rolandgao.com/blog/gobench/
Is there anything interesting to learn from the agent written bots? Or are they just inferior versions of the best bots because the time limit is so short? Is there any indication that they’re trained on the code from the human written bots (like, do they magically “guess” creating functionality that requires experimental feedback or domain experience?) How much are the bots on rails applying the same techniques every time?
I think those kinds of questions would be more interesting than the raw win/loss ratios.
So this benchmark has the LLMs writing a bit to play StarCraft. Somewhat similar there was a post here a while back that had the LLMs playing StarCraft directly - https://broodbench.com/ and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49766966
[delayed]
I am not sure I like this benchmark, but mostly, because I am not sure what it is really evaluating. It is not an idle dismissal.. multiple factors seem to complicate what it is supposed to look at ( just top of my head ):
- code generation speed - logic analysis - understanding of the game platform and how use of C may influence it - considered approaches, tactics and strategies
Don't get me wrong. It is is neat idea. I am just not sure what it measures.
> I am just not sure what it measures.
All of the above, to the extent that they can be measured from a simple to verify end condition (stats, win rates, etc). Adaptability, ability to understand and progress on a task, and so on.
general "agenticness"
They should benchmark it against Pluto. It's a artificial neutral network bot that can easily take games off the best broodwar players.
I did a live stream where Astra played Pluto. Astra went 0 - 1000 https://x.com/kaimcpheeters/status/2106782151622504911?s=20
I noticed Pluto is running on a simple CPU? If so, that's very nice for future RTS games. You just ship (or use a server-client arch) a bunch of models of various difficulty levels to let players practice. Could we even get models tuned to specific campaign levels? I wonder how costly the creation of Pluto was.
This is an interesting benchmark - I like that time is limited, as it often isn't in other benchmarks.
It would be interesting to see the reverse, how long does each model take to get >50% WR against bots of various tiers.
I did a 48 hour live stream - Astra cleared in 43 hours.
Although I should caveat the format advantaged the LLM bots compared to traditional tournament rules.
If you want to see human written bots in action or compete in the bot ladder yourself, try https://aiarena.net (SC2)
What if we let the agents play directly instead of writing bots?
If you are talking about take a screen shot, analyze move the window a bit, take another screenshot, move the window, repeat until they have seen enough of the map to make a decision, then decide what to click on, issue order.... this could absolutely be done. It's very similar to how LLM's have driven a car on a safe track.
But right now the response time would be so slow that the bot would not be close to competitive except with the most low level players. Especially because its hard to click on things that are moving at the same time as well.
Sometime soon, I'd like to see an LLM be competitive using only computer vision, mouse movement, and locked into a human possible number of actions per minute.
Even the most powerful frontier models on SOTA hardware are not fast enough for starcraft, which generally involves multiple informed decisions per second at peak moments.
You can train a specialized model for this, but a frontier model is ill-fitting.
How do they avoid the LLMs simply working with pre-training data? Which apparently they do, since the human written bots win. But it's a mystery, is what it is.
It's beyond insane that Astra achieves above 50%. Are models allowed to "play against" the specific bot they're up against? What explains the fact that it drops to single-digits against strong bots?
Yes during the 1 hour window they are allowed to play practice matches against opponents they are graded against - though they do not have access to their opponents source code.
They drop to single digits against the A tier and S tier bots because those bots are just generally harder opponents to beat.
How do the best humans do against the LLMs?
There is currently an AI bot playing on the ladder in Korea and essentially it will nearly always win because it can micro every unit individually across the entire map. If a normal human can max out at hundreds of actions per minute, the bot can do thousands. Broodwar is so insanely difficult mechanically that there is no way for humans to compete. I imagine in a few months, maybe a year, it will be completely unbeatable.
why protoss?
Maybe because Protosses have been doing bad lately and need some help improving :) (won only 3 out of 22 ASL championships in the past 10 years)
On a more serious note: all three races play quite differently so it makes sense to focus on just one. And protoss is mechanically the easiest and most straightforward race: fewer but stronger units, a single worker can be used to build multiple buildings at once, versatile basic static defence
for AIur
My wife for hire
Any thoughts on building this for Starcraft 2?