Because we're supposed to post things that create discussion and stimulate curiosity, while that generates outbursts like "I used to support Israel but now I don't support it's right to exist!" from new accounts.
In the spirit of wanting this thread to be more productive: I would like to see ~80%+ of the West Bank settlers shoved back into Israel as part of a peace deal and the infrastructure given as reparations.
Because the Palestinians are many decades late in accepting a two-state peace deal and their bargaining position isn't getting any better.
Because even moving 80% of West Bank settlement population is going to be difficult for Israel to achieve politically and we want the proposal to be something that can be actually achieved because we can see what the alternatives are. And this is with a hypothetical Democrat US president willing to bring ultimatums to an new Israeli President that is to the left of Netanyahu.
If you want to encourage endless conflict over what your vision of justice is then that's your right. But if there's no compromise there's going to be a lot of (mostly Palestinian) blood spilled yet and you should be aware of that.
I agree with you that politics is compromise. So given that:
Israel perpetrated an ethnic cleansing in 1948.
Israel illegally occupied Palestinian territory for decades, enforced apartheid, committed innumerable war crimes, murdered enormous amounts of civilians through the decades and caused total destruction of Gaza as well as many West Bank villages.
Never recognised Palestine even after Palestine recognised Israel (in 1998) and maneuvered to prevent its creation.
Given this and more, I would start by asking at least 120% of the territory back plus substantial reparations.
As for what Israel can achieve politically- I don't think you understand. You will never get anything via political negotiations because Israel has zero interest in giving up anything. The entire "peace process" has always been a farce, used to grant Israel more time to grab what it wants. The only way you're going to get anything is by exercising a substantial force, either economically (crippling sanctions) or via direct military intervention. If you keep treating Israel as a friend or an ally you'll never get anything out if it. Israel is an enemy.
Probably not even this compromise will ever happen.
The people holding power there (and that includes e.g. Hamas leaders, PLO leaders, various Israel leaders like from Shas party, or leaders of the settlers) hold part of their power BECAUSE of this conflict. Would the conflict go away, and the area become as boring as e.g. Austria, then their importance would have been reduced.
A powerful group there benefit from the ongoing drama.
Actual, the opposite is true. One thing has nothing to do with the other. And it aggravates me whenever this is conflated.
One can be a christian believer and not like what the last absolutist monarch of the monarch (the Pope, monarch of the "Holy Chair" in the Vatikan) does. One can even be roman catholic and not like what the catholic church does, e.g. when they shushed sexual abuse of kids.
And so one can be a jew (religious) and not like what the Israel (secular) government does.
Actually, there are LOTS of sects in the jewish religion. One of them, the ultra-orthodox (actual: charedic) living in Israel, are now in the news. They are now supposed to also go to the military. But some subgroups (Neturei Karta and Edah HaChareidis) of them actually deny the existence right of Israel. Jews not liking the state of Israel, if you so will. They claim that Israel can only exist once the Messiah comes back.
So, one can say that these two subgroups "question" the israelic identity. But that is only a minority of them. The majority, e.g. all the millions that demonstrated against "Bibi" Netanjahu know quite well that a national identity and a religious stance / believe are two different things.
In Germany, in the DLF radio program, they have each friday a short news block made by jewish people. And they all the time conflate these two. They claim that people speaking against the Israel government are against jew, or even anti-semitic. Which is nonsense, see the millions of jewish people in Israel that demonstrated against "Bibi" ...
To me, settlers is an euphemism for terrorists.
Settlers is an euphemism for Jewish terrorists.
Dupe https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50133274
Why is that flagged?
Because we're supposed to post things that create discussion and stimulate curiosity, while that generates outbursts like "I used to support Israel but now I don't support it's right to exist!" from new accounts.
In the spirit of wanting this thread to be more productive: I would like to see ~80%+ of the West Bank settlers shoved back into Israel as part of a peace deal and the infrastructure given as reparations.
> outbursts like "I used to support Israel but now I don't support it's right to exist!" from new accounts.
That's not a comment on that article though (not that there's anything wrong with it). The comments on the flagged post seem quite reasonable.
Why only 80%? Why should 20% of illegal occupiers remain on Palestinian land?
Because politics is compromise.
Because the Palestinians are many decades late in accepting a two-state peace deal and their bargaining position isn't getting any better.
Because even moving 80% of West Bank settlement population is going to be difficult for Israel to achieve politically and we want the proposal to be something that can be actually achieved because we can see what the alternatives are. And this is with a hypothetical Democrat US president willing to bring ultimatums to an new Israeli President that is to the left of Netanyahu.
If you want to encourage endless conflict over what your vision of justice is then that's your right. But if there's no compromise there's going to be a lot of (mostly Palestinian) blood spilled yet and you should be aware of that.
I agree with you that politics is compromise. So given that:
Israel perpetrated an ethnic cleansing in 1948.
Israel illegally occupied Palestinian territory for decades, enforced apartheid, committed innumerable war crimes, murdered enormous amounts of civilians through the decades and caused total destruction of Gaza as well as many West Bank villages.
Never recognised Palestine even after Palestine recognised Israel (in 1998) and maneuvered to prevent its creation.
Given this and more, I would start by asking at least 120% of the territory back plus substantial reparations.
As for what Israel can achieve politically- I don't think you understand. You will never get anything via political negotiations because Israel has zero interest in giving up anything. The entire "peace process" has always been a farce, used to grant Israel more time to grab what it wants. The only way you're going to get anything is by exercising a substantial force, either economically (crippling sanctions) or via direct military intervention. If you keep treating Israel as a friend or an ally you'll never get anything out if it. Israel is an enemy.
Probably not even this compromise will ever happen.
The people holding power there (and that includes e.g. Hamas leaders, PLO leaders, various Israel leaders like from Shas party, or leaders of the settlers) hold part of their power BECAUSE of this conflict. Would the conflict go away, and the area become as boring as e.g. Austria, then their importance would have been reduced.
A powerful group there benefit from the ongoing drama.
It is simply not possible to be Jewish and Israeli without questioning one of those identities
Actual, the opposite is true. One thing has nothing to do with the other. And it aggravates me whenever this is conflated.
One can be a christian believer and not like what the last absolutist monarch of the monarch (the Pope, monarch of the "Holy Chair" in the Vatikan) does. One can even be roman catholic and not like what the catholic church does, e.g. when they shushed sexual abuse of kids.
And so one can be a jew (religious) and not like what the Israel (secular) government does.
Actually, there are LOTS of sects in the jewish religion. One of them, the ultra-orthodox (actual: charedic) living in Israel, are now in the news. They are now supposed to also go to the military. But some subgroups (Neturei Karta and Edah HaChareidis) of them actually deny the existence right of Israel. Jews not liking the state of Israel, if you so will. They claim that Israel can only exist once the Messiah comes back.
So, one can say that these two subgroups "question" the israelic identity. But that is only a minority of them. The majority, e.g. all the millions that demonstrated against "Bibi" Netanjahu know quite well that a national identity and a religious stance / believe are two different things.
In Germany, in the DLF radio program, they have each friday a short news block made by jewish people. And they all the time conflate these two. They claim that people speaking against the Israel government are against jew, or even anti-semitic. Which is nonsense, see the millions of jewish people in Israel that demonstrated against "Bibi" ...