Sometimes I get the feeling that Signal hates users who aren't total normies. Unified Push, which works flawlessly on Molly, could easily be implemented in the regular client. Just as they could easily offer a Google free version for F-Droid or simply for people who want nothing to do with Google. But they just refuse. Just like it took years for nicknames to be introduced, and registering without a phone number has only recently become possible and only through the Google Play Store.
> When you say "Each group of users can have their own servers" you aren't enhancing privacy you are standing out.
You're also hedging against mandated government backdoors.
A single organisation like signal can easily compelled to add a backdoor (or leave the territory) like the EU is trying to do. Going after thousands of servers individually is a whole different problem.
They could still implement these things in the app and put them behind a switch for users who care about independence more than one specific type of anonymity. Explain the tradeoffs on the settings screen.
The only valid reason to be against an optional feature is the maintenance burden, I don't think it's too much here but I also can't speak for the Signal team.
No it's the other way around. Signal is explicitly designed for normies, which is why so many people use it. I doubt they sat around and thought of ways to screw certain users.
>Just as they could easily offer a Google free version
Easily? There's no easy in maintaining and releasing two different versions of your app, especially for a small non-profit.
Hates users who are not total normies and designed explicitly for normies are not opposite. In fact an app that hates not normies would be designed for explicitly for normies.
> Easily? There's no easy in maintaining and releasing two different versions of your app, especially for a small non-profit.
It's literally just another job on your CI. They got a 50 million seed donation in 2017 and reported almost 30 million in revenue in 2024. They are not exactly small. If they were VC founded and not a non profit they would be a unicorn.
Signal hates anyone who even thinks about using this IM app as the de-facto IM app, or with more than that one person who also tries Singal as an annual ritual in your friend circle. I tried to use the app again after a year or so. Gave it full contact permission and it wasn't able to pick friends who are alreasy on Signal. I was not even able to send them messages using the number. But a friend was able to send it a message to me. After 2-3 days finally the app started showing friend's name that's in contact. Tut there were scary warnings (I know, I know that's for my safery). The whole UX just feels at odd with anything and everything I've used. They manage to look and feel worse than WhatsApp of today and that I'd say is an achievement.
Hear hear. It’s been my observation that HN in particular has become much more combative. It’s full on like the meme where someone says “I like strawberries” and someone else complains “oh, so you hate pineapples?! They’re a fruit too, you know?! My great-grandfather ate pineapples. You’re a monster”¹. Yeah, chill, no one said anything about pineapples, stop assuming things or thinking everyone is against you. Don’t succumb to the tribalism.
¹ Unfortunately, I feel I must point out that I’m (I hope obviously) exaggerating for comedic effect.
Interestingly here, the sqlite DB would be trivially fixable, and messages restorable, with the `sqlite3` CLI.
But there's no way to get at that sqlite DB file. Even if you change Signal's code to add a feature to export the DB, it apparently cannot see your DB, because iOS sandboxes that so that it is only visible to Signal builds signed with the Signal developers' keys.
So that means your messages are all there, on your device, running open-source software, and yet you cannot get them.
This cannot have been the intention of Signal being Free Software. Where is "change it to make it do what you wish (freedom 1)"?
(I do not use iOS myself but have friends suffering this issue. Everybody involved is programmers and yet we seem to be able to do nothing about it.)
So it seems that even though the messages are on the user's device, it really is the Signal developers who "own" that data, and have the exclusive and ultimate control over it.
Makes me wonder:
Does this mean users suffering this need to GDPR-request their data out from Signal?
I'm not sure about Signal, but I had a similar issue with another app, a SQLite db inaccessible. I found that you could take a computer-based full backup and then there are various 3rd party tools that will poke through that backup for whatever "hidden" app data you need. One I previously used is iMazing, but I'm sure there are free open source ones as well.
The whole point of signal is that they cannot provide you with your data - they do not store it.
Further, I have been frustrated with similar design decisions with Signal - but how can they ensure you can export your messages without allowing letter agencies to do the same? Falling back on platform security guarantees is a rather good choice in terms of the economics - Signal need not gatekeep access to their private data - it is android and iOS that do the heavy lifting there. I’d love to move my messages between devices and sims - but I understand why that is not feasible for now.
To be sure this would mean Apple has to allow for 3p installs that have self signing keys that can let one gain visibility into the data of the app(in this case its in the sandboxes), yeah?
I also would like it to have stable supported libraries. But this doesn't seem to be a focus. It's a pitty, we have a Foss solution and it's hard to integrate with it....
2 years ago when I got a new phone, I had to re-register in both WhatsApp and Signal.
Both send you a code over SMS. I hate giving apps SMS access, so I refuse SMS intercept permission when an app asks for it, and instead I manually enter the received code in the app.
This was possible in WhatsApp, but was not possible in Signal. It won't allow you. You must give it SMS access to read the code. So much for privacy/security/... Only app I use which didn't allow me to manually enter the SMS code.
I’m pretty sure it’s for security reasons, it allows the app to ensure the code comes from a correct Signal phone number and not from a third party actor. It’s hand holding yes but it’s a trade off in favor of non-technical users.
I understand you’re being a bit overdramatic to make a point, but no, Signal and Facebook messenger are not the same levels of secure for the user. That’s not the same as “trust them wholly,” but surely you understand they are on very different ends of the spectrum.
Someone in that thread notes that when you install the Signal APK from here [1] it "doesn’t get updates tho", but this isn't the case. Signal will update itself; you get a notification to update. Often earlier than the Play Store, probably due to its reputation to randomly delay updates.
Yes, it notifies of updates (once it did wake me up in the middle of the night), but last time I checked, it does not update itself automatically. Obtanium works, though, but a bigger issue is the extreme power drainage of the websocket.
Signal sends you a notification that says "new version available, tap here to update", but tapping it never did anything for me. I have to re-download the apk their website every time there is an update.
The incorporated 501c3 named Signal is, in IT terms, a vendor. Is it not?
The Signal client software is open source and some of the clients have reproducible builds. The Signal server software is open source, though has a history of being over a year out of date at some points. Other deployments of this server software for production use are rare.
Suppose you configured an instance of the Signal server software and others you know ran also a somewhat modified Signal client that could access that instance of the Signal server software.
But the centralized namespace of the hosted Signal service hosted by the incorporated 501c3 named Signal would not be accessible through that server instance now would it.
And, as dictated by the incorporated vendor of the centralized namespace, and other reasons, in practice, this client would have to run as a separate piece of software. "Another app".
This is vendor lock-in.
The service hosted by the 501c3 named Signal seems widely open yet is a permissioned namespace. A physical location tracking number aka phone number or a credit/debit card is required to access the namespace. This is for slaves. The profane.
Open Signal on your phone to keep your account active
This vendor is abusive.
And, I don't think this is what Moxie wanted.
Signal 501c3 is a centralized service. XMPP and Matrix are decentralized/federated. SimpleX is distributed.
> Moxie knows about everything I’ve said in this article. He’s a very smart guy and I am under no illusions that he doesn’t understand everything I’ve put forth. I don’t think that Moxie makes these choices because he thinks they’re the right thing to do. [...] Moxie can’t come out and say it openly, but he’s made the decisions he has made because they serve his own interests.
And it looks like it's working. The Signal social network is growing. Revenue is growing (revenue pays for ongoing maintenance). Alternative servers are not sapping user metrics. It's still easy to push both security fixes and eye-catching new features because one central server, and client upgrades are aggressively pushed. Spam is not a plague because registration remains expensive - you need a genuine phone number you control, or Google to vouch for you (who in turn have their own robust defences against account creation).
If it was a free sign up where you just need an IP address to play, spammers would have hundreds of millions of accounts and you'd get as much nuisance friend requests as you get email spam. Most people would leave. You've seen the scraperpocalypse, every sketchy person on the planet has money to fund a million sign ups each from a unique US residential IP (thanks to "smart" TV vendor neglect/corruption allowing residential proxies), IP reputation is worthless.
Personal instances of Signal would hide until spammers found them but you'd better have your own locked down registration because you can't hide forever. Not to mention that sending ongoing traffic to your own server tells everyone where and when you're posting, moreso than using Signal's centralised services.
Moxie as far as I know is still involved in the project and is the source of decisions such as requiring a phone number. My understanding is he is leaning hard on "encryption for anyone and everyone" over all other considerations such as decentralization.
A common criticism is "huh, not very anarchist of him!" Which, maybe? If decisions like that can get Signal into as many hands as possible, and if Signal can continue to operate in such a way as to have basically nothing to offer governments that demand data other than account join date, I think that's an improvement in material conditions.
Your bio has a pretty frank indication of the maximally decentralized, encrypted alternative, and how user hostile that still is:
> If you want to DM, I am generally open to chat. Generate a https://SimpleX.chat invite and paste it into a file simplex-invite.txt, then run the commands below and include pasted contents of DM.txt in one of your comments in any thread we're both participating in.
Sometimes I get the feeling that Signal hates users who aren't total normies. Unified Push, which works flawlessly on Molly, could easily be implemented in the regular client. Just as they could easily offer a Google free version for F-Droid or simply for people who want nothing to do with Google. But they just refuse. Just like it took years for nicknames to be introduced, and registering without a phone number has only recently become possible and only through the Google Play Store.
Don't Stand Out.
When you say "Each user can choose a different notification service" you aren't enhancing privacy you are standing out.
When you say "Each group of users can have their own servers" you aren't enhancing privacy you are standing out.
So yeah, it's only for "total normies" in the sense that if you insist on standing out from those "total normies" that's a problem.
Signal is taking advantage of the inherent camouflage of crowds, once you insist on standing out that's gone and you can't get it back.
> When you say "Each group of users can have their own servers" you aren't enhancing privacy you are standing out.
You're also hedging against mandated government backdoors.
A single organisation like signal can easily compelled to add a backdoor (or leave the territory) like the EU is trying to do. Going after thousands of servers individually is a whole different problem.
They could still implement these things in the app and put them behind a switch for users who care about independence more than one specific type of anonymity. Explain the tradeoffs on the settings screen.
The only valid reason to be against an optional feature is the maintenance burden, I don't think it's too much here but I also can't speak for the Signal team.
>Signal hates users who aren't total normies.
No it's the other way around. Signal is explicitly designed for normies, which is why so many people use it. I doubt they sat around and thought of ways to screw certain users.
>Just as they could easily offer a Google free version
Easily? There's no easy in maintaining and releasing two different versions of your app, especially for a small non-profit.
Hates users who are not total normies and designed explicitly for normies are not opposite. In fact an app that hates not normies would be designed for explicitly for normies.
> Easily? There's no easy in maintaining and releasing two different versions of your app, especially for a small non-profit.
It's literally just another job on your CI. They got a 50 million seed donation in 2017 and reported almost 30 million in revenue in 2024. They are not exactly small. If they were VC founded and not a non profit they would be a unicorn.
It's just two compilation profiles, at least thousands of minuscule open source projects do it
Signal hates anyone who even thinks about using this IM app as the de-facto IM app, or with more than that one person who also tries Singal as an annual ritual in your friend circle. I tried to use the app again after a year or so. Gave it full contact permission and it wasn't able to pick friends who are alreasy on Signal. I was not even able to send them messages using the number. But a friend was able to send it a message to me. After 2-3 days finally the app started showing friend's name that's in contact. Tut there were scary warnings (I know, I know that's for my safery). The whole UX just feels at odd with anything and everything I've used. They manage to look and feel worse than WhatsApp of today and that I'd say is an achievement.
I want to express a very different perspective here as a counterpoint: I'm really grateful for the Signal team's work.
Today, I discussed my father's health condition with my family. Signal worked smoothly (even for my aging mother!), and it's free and secure.
Over the past five years, I have donated $500 to the foundation in total. I hope they continue to maintain the app into the far future.
Do you support what the above user contests?
It’s a different perspective. Not everything is a direct argument about the exact thing written. No need to be like that.
Hear hear. It’s been my observation that HN in particular has become much more combative. It’s full on like the meme where someone says “I like strawberries” and someone else complains “oh, so you hate pineapples?! They’re a fruit too, you know?! My great-grandfather ate pineapples. You’re a monster”¹. Yeah, chill, no one said anything about pineapples, stop assuming things or thinking everyone is against you. Don’t succumb to the tribalism.
¹ Unfortunately, I feel I must point out that I’m (I hope obviously) exaggerating for comedic effect.
Or this case we encountered, where on iOS Signal apparently corrupts its sqlite DB, leading to loss of all messages.
https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-iOS/issues/5813
Interestingly here, the sqlite DB would be trivially fixable, and messages restorable, with the `sqlite3` CLI.
But there's no way to get at that sqlite DB file. Even if you change Signal's code to add a feature to export the DB, it apparently cannot see your DB, because iOS sandboxes that so that it is only visible to Signal builds signed with the Signal developers' keys.
So that means your messages are all there, on your device, running open-source software, and yet you cannot get them.
This cannot have been the intention of Signal being Free Software. Where is "change it to make it do what you wish (freedom 1)"?
(I do not use iOS myself but have friends suffering this issue. Everybody involved is programmers and yet we seem to be able to do nothing about it.)
So it seems that even though the messages are on the user's device, it really is the Signal developers who "own" that data, and have the exclusive and ultimate control over it.
Makes me wonder:
Does this mean users suffering this need to GDPR-request their data out from Signal?
> Interestingly here, the sqlite DB would be trivially fixable, and messages restorable, with the `sqlite3` CLI.
It seems to me like the app itself should be able to perform this operation and restore data? Why is this not just fixed in the app?
I'm not sure about Signal, but I had a similar issue with another app, a SQLite db inaccessible. I found that you could take a computer-based full backup and then there are various 3rd party tools that will poke through that backup for whatever "hidden" app data you need. One I previously used is iMazing, but I'm sure there are free open source ones as well.
Best of luck!
The whole point of signal is that they cannot provide you with your data - they do not store it.
Further, I have been frustrated with similar design decisions with Signal - but how can they ensure you can export your messages without allowing letter agencies to do the same? Falling back on platform security guarantees is a rather good choice in terms of the economics - Signal need not gatekeep access to their private data - it is android and iOS that do the heavy lifting there. I’d love to move my messages between devices and sims - but I understand why that is not feasible for now.
To be sure this would mean Apple has to allow for 3p installs that have self signing keys that can let one gain visibility into the data of the app(in this case its in the sandboxes), yeah?
The number of people using F-droid is tiny.
Non-normies can continue to use PGP like they always have.
/s second paragraph.
I also would like it to have stable supported libraries. But this doesn't seem to be a focus. It's a pitty, we have a Foss solution and it's hard to integrate with it....
2 years ago when I got a new phone, I had to re-register in both WhatsApp and Signal.
Both send you a code over SMS. I hate giving apps SMS access, so I refuse SMS intercept permission when an app asks for it, and instead I manually enter the received code in the app.
This was possible in WhatsApp, but was not possible in Signal. It won't allow you. You must give it SMS access to read the code. So much for privacy/security/... Only app I use which didn't allow me to manually enter the SMS code.
I’m pretty sure it’s for security reasons, it allows the app to ensure the code comes from a correct Signal phone number and not from a third party actor. It’s hand holding yes but it’s a trade off in favor of non-technical users.
Somehow all the other apps, including bank apps, do not seem to consider this necessary.
Signal always has excuses, "we can't add usernames because we don't know how to make them secure"
Bank apps do checklist-oriented security, and nobody has put that on the checklist yet.
> it allows the app to ensure the code comes from a correct Signal phone number and not from a third party actor.
But if they sent you the code, even if a third party actor could somehow see it and hand it to you instead -- so what? What's the difference?
Hate to say it, but if you don’t trust Signal to read your texts… you’ve already lost - stick with Facebook Messenger.
Memes I share with friends on Signal and verification codes from my bank with my life savings require very different levels of trust.
Why would I give any app permission to read my messages, no matter how secure it claims to be?
I understand you’re being a bit overdramatic to make a point, but no, Signal and Facebook messenger are not the same levels of secure for the user. That’s not the same as “trust them wholly,” but surely you understand they are on very different ends of the spectrum.
Someone in that thread notes that when you install the Signal APK from here [1] it "doesn’t get updates tho", but this isn't the case. Signal will update itself; you get a notification to update. Often earlier than the Play Store, probably due to its reputation to randomly delay updates.
[1] https://signal.org/android/apk/
Yes, it notifies of updates (once it did wake me up in the middle of the night), but last time I checked, it does not update itself automatically. Obtanium works, though, but a bigger issue is the extreme power drainage of the websocket.
Signal sends you a notification that says "new version available, tap here to update", but tapping it never did anything for me. I have to re-download the apk their website every time there is an update.
TIL: The official Signal app can now use one account, shard over two devices.
This was my main reason to use Molly over Signal.
https://aboutsignal.com/news/signal-allows-iphones-to-be-lin...
That article only mentions iPhones, for which Molly was never an option anyway.
But, apparently Android is also supported: https://aboutsignal.com/news/signal-allows-android-phones-to...
So glad they finally added this!
Wow, they have not done a good job advertising that when I needed that feature.
I’ve been using Beeper to keep using Signal on my older iPhone when I upgraded.
Well that's timely, and a bummer. I was just wondering about this yesterday, I use signal on my primary phone and Molly on a secondary phone.
Signal got an update yesterday and when I saw the notification I couldn't remember the last time Molly was updated...
The incorporated 501c3 named Signal is, in IT terms, a vendor. Is it not?
The Signal client software is open source and some of the clients have reproducible builds. The Signal server software is open source, though has a history of being over a year out of date at some points. Other deployments of this server software for production use are rare.
Suppose you configured an instance of the Signal server software and others you know ran also a somewhat modified Signal client that could access that instance of the Signal server software.
But the centralized namespace of the hosted Signal service hosted by the incorporated 501c3 named Signal would not be accessible through that server instance now would it.
And, as dictated by the incorporated vendor of the centralized namespace, and other reasons, in practice, this client would have to run as a separate piece of software. "Another app".
This is vendor lock-in.
The service hosted by the 501c3 named Signal seems widely open yet is a permissioned namespace. A physical location tracking number aka phone number or a credit/debit card is required to access the namespace. This is for slaves. The profane.
This vendor is abusive.And, I don't think this is what Moxie wanted.
Signal 501c3 is a centralized service. XMPP and Matrix are decentralized/federated. SimpleX is distributed.
> Signal 501c3 is a centralized service. XMPP and Matrix are decentralized/federated. SimpleX is distributed.
Session is a decentralized Signal fork that creates the account on the device without associating it with a phone number.
https://getsession.org/
See also maqp2's comment here regarding Simplex:
https://web.archive.org/web/20250302182017/https://reddit.co...
> I don't think this is what Moxie wanted.
I think this is exactly what he wanted, as these were the complaints levelled against the service when he was still in charge.
From 2018: https://drewdevault.com/blog/Signal/
> Moxie knows about everything I’ve said in this article. He’s a very smart guy and I am under no illusions that he doesn’t understand everything I’ve put forth. I don’t think that Moxie makes these choices because he thinks they’re the right thing to do. [...] Moxie can’t come out and say it openly, but he’s made the decisions he has made because they serve his own interests.
And it looks like it's working. The Signal social network is growing. Revenue is growing (revenue pays for ongoing maintenance). Alternative servers are not sapping user metrics. It's still easy to push both security fixes and eye-catching new features because one central server, and client upgrades are aggressively pushed. Spam is not a plague because registration remains expensive - you need a genuine phone number you control, or Google to vouch for you (who in turn have their own robust defences against account creation).
If it was a free sign up where you just need an IP address to play, spammers would have hundreds of millions of accounts and you'd get as much nuisance friend requests as you get email spam. Most people would leave. You've seen the scraperpocalypse, every sketchy person on the planet has money to fund a million sign ups each from a unique US residential IP (thanks to "smart" TV vendor neglect/corruption allowing residential proxies), IP reputation is worthless.
Personal instances of Signal would hide until spammers found them but you'd better have your own locked down registration because you can't hide forever. Not to mention that sending ongoing traffic to your own server tells everyone where and when you're posting, moreso than using Signal's centralised services.
Its tradeoffs all the way down.
> And, I don't think this is what Moxie wanted.
Moxie as far as I know is still involved in the project and is the source of decisions such as requiring a phone number. My understanding is he is leaning hard on "encryption for anyone and everyone" over all other considerations such as decentralization.
A common criticism is "huh, not very anarchist of him!" Which, maybe? If decisions like that can get Signal into as many hands as possible, and if Signal can continue to operate in such a way as to have basically nothing to offer governments that demand data other than account join date, I think that's an improvement in material conditions.
Your bio has a pretty frank indication of the maximally decentralized, encrypted alternative, and how user hostile that still is:
> If you want to DM, I am generally open to chat. Generate a https://SimpleX.chat invite and paste it into a file simplex-invite.txt, then run the commands below and include pasted contents of DM.txt in one of your comments in any thread we're both participating in.
<insert laughing emoji>
Hylic detected.