This shouldn't be a surprise. The US came out of WWII with similarly high debt to GDP. They only corrected that through financial repression, and that's likely to be their only chance of lowering that debt ratio today.
If we don't spend the next few decades skating by while the currency is debased under our noses, I assume its because there's a much more severe and tragic response.
The US also kept much higher marginal tax rates for a few more decades after that, which helped the common people by disincentivizing the post-Reagan short-term-financial-games profit-maximization and wealth-and-income-consolidation.
I feel like the earnings structure is quite different than it was post-war though. Today there's a larger difference between "income rich" and "capital rich" in terms of their options for avoiding tax incidence.
Like in 1947 a factory owner's profits would show up as high income. Today they wouldn't (money is in share prices and complex financial arrangements / borrowing). The high marginal rates hit the chief engineer instead, who actually works for a living.
That, and there is a looming Social Security crisis due in 2032. Fiscal responsibility hasn't been either party's (or voters') priority for the past two decades, and it's probably going to take another disaster to put it back on the table.
The problem would be much less intractable if one party didn't do 3 pointless multi-trillion dollar tax cuts primarily for the benefit of ultra high earners. Each time promising it would reduce the deficit, with increasing absurdity.
It's depressing to look at the before/after federal deficit estimates over the last two decades without the Bush tax cuts, even before taking out the Trump 1 tax cuts (and future projections from the recent Trump 2 cuts in the BBB). Just a huge unforced error that was completely foreseeable each time.
Contrary to public perception and PR, the "party of fiscal responsibility" has consistently been a disaster for controlling the deficit.
This isn't a "one party is the problem" situation. Both parties have spent over 20 years fighting pointless wars. Both parties spend without balancing a budget. Both now gerrymander and both at least threaten to stack the court. Both pander to voters with short term solutions that actively do harm long term. Both were responsible for the shit show of the pandemic response.
The list goes on and on. They argue over where new debt should be spent, who to bomb, or what new powers the government should claim. What we don't see is a debate over government overreach, balanced budgets, or even whether we should even be in a war with Iran.
Let's actually compare the size of the wars of both parties for the last 40 years. Let's compare the spend-vs-tax changes for both.
If you can't be honest that some folks out there are, in fact, pushing much worse agendas than others... then how do you hope to convince anyone to evaluate if anyone else is gonna actually do better than either? You can't easily have those critical thinking skills without noticing the differences in the two current parties...
Is your argument that one party overspends worse than the other? That certainly is true, though how many externalities are included would be up for debate. Regardless though, my problem is with the over spending, not with which is party over spends less.
You said it wasn't a "one party is the problem" situation.
But how can you conclude that if you don't have those numbers to give me?
Switching gears to externalities seems like a bit of a dodge unless you are super confident that those externalities are more significant than the bad things you predict happening in the future due to the debt.
Don't you need to look at the numbers to justify that claim? Maybe one party has added 30T and another has added 5T to the debt since Carter. Maybe one has added 20T and the other added 18T. Those numbers would demand VERY different responses.
But saying "it's not one party" seems to assume a particular set of numbers. What are they?
I'm sorry, but this is almost a parody of the enlightened centrism meme.
The Democrats have attempted to pass several anti-gerrymandering bills. One in the Senate in 2024, one in the House in 2021. Both stonewalled by Republicans.
The Republican SCOTUS appointees allowed partisan gerrymandering, the Democratic ones were in the dissent.
California's prop 50 was IN RESPONSE to an unprecedented mid-term gerrymandering effort by Texas at the behest of Trump.
I just picked one example, but I could easily write similar responses that show very stark differences between the parties when it comes to wars, stacking the court, war with Iran, and more.
It's easy to place the blame on political parties or the wealthy but at the end of the day the problems that America faces are the result of a series of choices made by the electorate over decades despite the feedback from each of these decisions as they were made.
At then end of the day the way things are in America is a reflection of what the American people want their country to be.
People like to make the argument that Americans would stand up and sort this problem out, but the country is just so big, and the average American just doesn't have enough money to do something, and people are spread far and wide and that there's just no way for the to come together to decisively end these problems but it's just excuses. People by and large are content with the status quo. This is just what they want.
Precarious state of health care access and incomprehensibly opaque costs? That's a choice.
An ever escalating police state that has reached new peaks of immigration police and pulling random people off the street and a national guard perpetually patrolling cities? That's a choice.
Forever wars with no discernible objective or end point in the Middle East? That's a choice.
consolidation of media and economic control into a smaller and smaller group of people? That's a choice.
All of this is a choice that Americans collectively continue to make. And my prediction is that they'll continue to keep making these (imho) poor choices.
It's not so much choices that Americans collectively make. Almost every major policy decision since 2010 has been unpopular with the American public. The actual elected officials just thumbs up or thumbs down something based which party introduced it, and then if they ignore that they decide on the very poorly organized skim notes an aide might be able to badger them into reading. Many members of our House Of Representatives didn't even read what was in the 2018 fiscal budget bill (P.L. 115-123) or the omnibus bill of 2025 (P.L. 119-21) that destroyed regulatory authority. Mitch McConnell ruined the ability of Congress to actually function by making it a warring states situation instead of organized compromise. Ever since then it's been grab what you can get and get, because you won't get any long term work done.
The American people don't actually want this. They don't vote for any of these policies. They actively vote and protest against them. But there's no true mechanism available to the public for ousting elected or appointed officials outside of scheduled times. Recalls have no enforcement. Impeachments have no enforcement! When you know you've got a protected period to wreak havoc in, you do it without worry. Especially if you're doing that in service of people who have broken the systems so they cannot be pried out of their positions, and who will pay you handsomely for bloodying your hands during that two or six year stint.
The public just has to hope whoever they're voting for isn't lying to them, because if that representative is then there's nothing the public can do to punish them in time.
Voters aren't given meaningful choices. It's just subjective "lesser of two evils" in a race to the bottom (except for elites, who win no matter which fake party is in power).
I wouldn't say democracy I'd illusory. I'd say it has to be fought for repeatedly to keep it, and we've done a poor job of fighting for it at least in my lifetime.
There's nothing an actively-aiming-to-harm-others-for-their-own-gain person loves more than someone else deciding to stop trying because it's 'rigged.' The assholes are internally motivated to continue to being assholes. That takes continual active resistance.
Health access, for instance, improved as a result of one set of votes. Lifetime maxes are gone. There is improved access to non-employee plans.
It didn't stop inflation of health plan costs or medical treatment in general. One might think that means its worth voting for people pledging to make further large-scale changes to address those things.
And meanwhile, the assholes have been campaigning on the opposite for more than a decade: try to make the access worse again by trying rhetorical tricks to say that the one caused vs failed to fix the other. That'll let some rich people get even richer.
That's a real difference for many millions of people.
Neither party is perfect. Welcome to adulthood. Shitty compromises are generally all you get.
By all means, work on structural things to encourage more parties to exist and flourish.
I don't think you can seriously say that there are no meaningful differences between the two major parties. Just compare Biden and Trump 2. You might not like either choice, but their policy platforms are in fact very different, and both are popular among large segments of the population. That's democracy in action.
In my opinion, we don't have a democracy problem, we have an education problem. Too many voters support policies that sound nice on paper but are disastrous when put into practice.
The two parties, including the most recent presidents, have disagreed on specific policy but not on direction. Both partied want more federal powers and authority. Both want to spend more than they make. Both believe in authoritarian type rule with "experts" at the top deciding what is best for all of us.
Clinton left office with a budget surplus. He deserves some credit for that, though it was also partly due to the end of the Cold War and the Republican majority Congress under Gingrich. Deficit spending increased dramatically under George W. Bush after 9/11 and every subsequent administration has continued this.
A lot of these trends go back to Reagan so "25 years ago" isn't too long ago to have shaped those trends.
But Clinton was a bit of a correction—not perfect by any means—to Reagan, who lit a bunch of gasoline on the "don't tax and DO spend" fire. Too bad even Reagan would look like some sort of TDS cuck RINO to the current conservatives...
So if one guy figures out some rhetorical tricks to convince an entire generation that ACTUALLY tax cuts will INCREASE revenue and HELP the deficit... while meanwhile massively increasing it under his administration... that guy still has responsibility for it decades later. (Throw in the hollywood greed-is-good-everyone-screw-over-your-neighbor-and-do-cocaine enthusiastic adoption of the era for good measure.)
It's the Baby Boomers. They will transition to collecting ssi.
This was the "Locked Box" that Al Gore got mocked for on SNL 26 years ago. So people saw it coming and were trying to fix it then. And it was the Democrats trying to fix, it is not a "both sides" case. There is one party trying to destroy Social Security, and one party trying to fix it. I encourage anyone to not take my word for it, and conduct some basic research of their own.
Anyway, the crisis is that there is less income than distribution. So we collect debt (unlikely, given appetite for US debt after the last 20 months or so) or reduce payments.
Since many social security recipients are wealthy and not at risk of poverty, what will happen is likely some sort of reduction after means testing. It is not ideal, but entirely because fiscal choices of America's collective fault.
It doesn't directly. Financial repression does though, its a "solution" to high federal debt and leaves the average person having to eat the cost.
Its a bit like austerity, but instead of taking a share of everyone's wealth they just make all of our stored wealth worse less. They do that by inflating asset prices much faster than wages can keep up, meaning those large corporations at the top get rich while the average person falls further and further behind.
It seems like the economy is kind of doing this on its own? The Fed has been keeping rates higher, despite political pressure, without yet having achieved the inflation target.
The economy is a measure of past financial behavior. I'm not sure how the economy could do this on its own, we're doing this to ourselves. I say "we" collectively there, these are all results of human choices not an amorphous concept of an economy.
Don't quote me on that, but people are saying that despite American companies are getting more money, people are getting even less.
Or that's my understanding. Happy to be corrected though
Public debt burden increases interest rates. This benefits holders of government bonds, who are disproportionately wealthy households and financial institutions. It crowds out private investment and inhibits economic growth, which weakens workers' bargaining power. Deficit spending also causes inflation, which disproportionately hurts people on the lower end of the income scale.
To be fair, Clinton pulled off a surplus through clever accounting though it would have been comparatively close either way.
I'm not sure how you could possibly narrow the issue down to two presidents' tax cuts alone. What about all the war spending? Or money printing? Or a partially implemented half step towards socialized health care?
Both parties are responsible for the debt we hold today, they have just argued about what to spend it on along the way.
Depends. Can I bribe the machines with an all expenses paid luxury holiday getaway, an RV, private school tuition, and real estate like I can with Supreme Court Justices? Or do I have to pollute the AI's training data somehow and hope for the best. Seems far more efficient to me if the rich just buy politicians the regular way.
You can implement policies that tax more than just income. So no not regardless of policy but yes where policies don't exist to reshape a system where capital (i.e. investment in automated production) inherently takes more of the wealth than labour it will inherently lead to an agglomeration of capital.
Today, if sanitation workers go on strike, they rapidly end up with a negotiated settlement. If we had self driving garbage trucks that didn't need them, what political leverage would they have? The same too goes for other industries.
If police have advanced surveillance technology and drones, even violent protest becomes very hard.
What pressure is there to cater to people who are powerless dead weight on the economy?
But instead, ever since the brief federal surplus at the end of the 90s, we've done multiple multi-trillion dollar tax cuts for the highest earners. Bush tax cuts + 2x Trump tax cuts (most recently in the BBB). In each case after fudging the projections beforehand to claim it will reduce the deficit somehow, then the deficit grows by a massive amount.
We've been reshaping the system to redistribute trillions to capital owners via government IOUs that will eventually come due. Inevitably, this will be "solved" by cutting benefits to workers while insisting no other solution could possibly exist.
Like, you know, undoing these relatively recent handouts to the ultra rich and restructuring policy to the benefit of workers.
One would expect that retirees are mostly living off capital rather than labor. Wouldn't an increased elderly population result in a lower labor share?
Or maybe something else. This paper suggests that as workers get older, they switch jobs less and get fewer raises:
"We find that a 60-year-old worker receives half the marginal product relative to when they were 20. Together with recent demographic trends, this can account for 59% of the recent decline in labor’s share of earnings in the United States."
So here's what I don't get: The United States is the world's largest consumer market. From what I can find, personal consumption expenditures (PCE) account for about two-thirds to 70% of total US economic output. We live and die on consumer spending and confidence.
So next we automate the bejeebus out of this economy with AI robots and Elon believes it grows 3x in under five years. Splendid. But if a consumer-driven economy has no payrolls, it eventually has no buyers. It just seems to me that ultimately, billionaires and investors cannot decouple themselves from the masses... but maybe it's a game of get mine before the system collapses?
Today, around 50% of US consumer spending is by the top 10% of wealthiest households. (per Moody's)
The end state of this looks like how humanity looked before the industrial revolution: A single-digit percent of the population has the vast majority of the wealth and virtually all real estate and luxury goods. Between 90% and 95% of the population has just enough to live on, and never enough to build generational wealth or have any class mobility.
I think those in poverty have an awful lot less ways to supplement bought food these days, they are largely legislated out of foraging in any meaningful way. So I think actually a large percentage will starve to death or be in prison.
Food banks. Church pantries. Welfare programs. Meals with family and friends. Eat way less meat. Get hardcore into meal prep. https://traumbooks.itch.io/the-sad-bastard-cookbook. People will find ways to eat as long as there isn't an active warzone.
I'm much more worried about what housing looks like in the future.
if a really powerful mafia got installed into your city, a very small violent group of people demanding people to pay to stay safe... how long before you start organizing? how long before they notice and do something about it?
If billionaires have all the money then there's nothing stopping them from buying all the stuff the economy can produce and leaving the rest of the population to barely get by or starve. Certainly, higher income people might currently spend less than their share of total income (at least between 2017 and 2021, see BLS paper, Garner et al., 2024, Gini of 0.3ish vs what I believe is 0.4ish for post-tax income) because poor people need to spend more of their income on things like food or rent, but there's no reason why the share of spendin by the top x% can't increase. In fact, as I understand it, it already has, according to [2] who themselves cite Moody, the top 20% accounted for 59% of spending in Q3 2025, which was a marked increase from the 40% in the BLS paper.
Now, the top 20% certainly aren't billionaires, but we also have to remember that the Luddites also benefited significantly from the automation of spinning before they themselves were replaced by automated weaving and subsequently suppressed by the state. There is no reason to think our current crop of labour aristocracy immune from the whims of capital when the time comes.
When they have enough robots, they won't need the rest of the system. I think Musk must have meant something like that when he said money won't matter.
Well, Elon thinks we'll all get a Universal High Income. Holding aside the irony of him thinking the future is socialism, that money has to come from somewhere. If all companies in the future depend on a handful of AI and Robotics companies, I guess that the money has to come from Elon. Seeing as the layoffs have started, what is he waiting for?
Machine intelligence could drive as much transfer from labor to capital in the next decade as the previous wage-to-financial economy produced in forty years.
This will push wealth concentration in leading OECD economies beyond the inequality seen in Brazil and Mexico.
A disaster. Economy is a flow of capital, it cycles up. USA needs the general public to have money for necessities as well as a little more for saving and then extras.
Top earnings come from the support of 1000s of participants with lesser earnings. This is an unhealthy economic trend. It's more than a stagnation risk.
Issues like these are created in a short term but take comparatively longer to correct.
Lower wages, job losses or eliminations, structural unemployment and forced entrepreneurship were all concepts that emerged during the Great Depression [1].
The world is a very different place than it was in the early 20th century, but at the same time, "those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it".
I say this not to be a "doomer". I say this because those forces I mentioned above were very real and we have to keep our eyes wide open.
Alice has nothing, Elon has $1T and we give them each a UBI of, lets say, $50k.
Your "instant inflation" means now their effective buying power is diluted by some fixed factor X. You claim this somehow leaves both Alice and Elon in "the same place they started from"
100000005 X == 100000000 but 5 X = 0, if you've done high school math you can probably see that there is no value of X for which this works.
Not if we control the prices, the idea of UBI isn't to give money but to give resources, if everyone gets a house, clothes, food and education for free that's UBI as well. Even if it didn't involve a direct benefit transfer.
And that's the only solution to UBI, when resources are abundant enough that UBI isn't needed or with UBI we increase resource enough that there isn't inflation risks.
All UBI experiments till now have proven it's not bad for the people, if we just manage the economy part it will all work out somehow.
Or, 90% of us (that aren't zoo-worthy) will need to be exterminated. 2/3rds+ of us American't were "paycheck to paycheck" – a statistic which pre-dates Covid!
It's amazing how even though this is happening, so many of the people on this list (and those who aspire to be there) have gone to straight up war with the public. Also curious how many are militant Zionists:
Yeah that point no longer really applies because bad food is cheap. And also fast, people that work a lot don't have the time to spend an hour cooking.
Sadly the people behind ycombinator think helping this administration crush woke youth, and spying on us with flock cameras, is more important that preventing fascism or corporotocracy.
Yeah, my thought exactly. Capital is the firm. Labor is the workforce. Wages are the return to labor and profit is the return to capital. Labor and capital are in eternal struggle for their piece of the pie.
Capital historically meant 'that part of production set aside for future production'. Machines, land improvements, infrastructure, intellectual property. Now it tends to include all assets used to generate wealth - including things like land which were once in their own category.
Wages are just money and may or may not become capital according to the discretion and opportunities of the employee.
Anyone care to explain the downvotes? I am simply pointing out a glaring misuse of a word in the title, which made me curious about the author's background.
Although I'm non-downvoter, I doubt anyone thinks you're wrong. It's probably just that they feel that the comment is distracting or of uncertain relevance or something like that.
This shouldn't be a surprise. The US came out of WWII with similarly high debt to GDP. They only corrected that through financial repression, and that's likely to be their only chance of lowering that debt ratio today.
If we don't spend the next few decades skating by while the currency is debased under our noses, I assume its because there's a much more severe and tragic response.
In a completely unrelated note, corporate profits are at a historical high. Up 22.8% from the same period last year.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/222127/quarterly-corpora...
How much of it is new private and public debt?
The US also kept much higher marginal tax rates for a few more decades after that, which helped the common people by disincentivizing the post-Reagan short-term-financial-games profit-maximization and wealth-and-income-consolidation.
I feel like the earnings structure is quite different than it was post-war though. Today there's a larger difference between "income rich" and "capital rich" in terms of their options for avoiding tax incidence.
Like in 1947 a factory owner's profits would show up as high income. Today they wouldn't (money is in share prices and complex financial arrangements / borrowing). The high marginal rates hit the chief engineer instead, who actually works for a living.
That, and there is a looming Social Security crisis due in 2032. Fiscal responsibility hasn't been either party's (or voters') priority for the past two decades, and it's probably going to take another disaster to put it back on the table.
The problem would be much less intractable if one party didn't do 3 pointless multi-trillion dollar tax cuts primarily for the benefit of ultra high earners. Each time promising it would reduce the deficit, with increasing absurdity.
It's depressing to look at the before/after federal deficit estimates over the last two decades without the Bush tax cuts, even before taking out the Trump 1 tax cuts (and future projections from the recent Trump 2 cuts in the BBB). Just a huge unforced error that was completely foreseeable each time.
Contrary to public perception and PR, the "party of fiscal responsibility" has consistently been a disaster for controlling the deficit.
This isn't a "one party is the problem" situation. Both parties have spent over 20 years fighting pointless wars. Both parties spend without balancing a budget. Both now gerrymander and both at least threaten to stack the court. Both pander to voters with short term solutions that actively do harm long term. Both were responsible for the shit show of the pandemic response.
The list goes on and on. They argue over where new debt should be spent, who to bomb, or what new powers the government should claim. What we don't see is a debate over government overreach, balanced budgets, or even whether we should even be in a war with Iran.
Let's actually compare the size of the wars of both parties for the last 40 years. Let's compare the spend-vs-tax changes for both.
If you can't be honest that some folks out there are, in fact, pushing much worse agendas than others... then how do you hope to convince anyone to evaluate if anyone else is gonna actually do better than either? You can't easily have those critical thinking skills without noticing the differences in the two current parties...
Is your argument that one party overspends worse than the other? That certainly is true, though how many externalities are included would be up for debate. Regardless though, my problem is with the over spending, not with which is party over spends less.
You said it wasn't a "one party is the problem" situation.
But how can you conclude that if you don't have those numbers to give me?
Switching gears to externalities seems like a bit of a dodge unless you are super confident that those externalities are more significant than the bad things you predict happening in the future due to the debt.
Don't you need to look at the numbers to justify that claim? Maybe one party has added 30T and another has added 5T to the debt since Carter. Maybe one has added 20T and the other added 18T. Those numbers would demand VERY different responses.
But saying "it's not one party" seems to assume a particular set of numbers. What are they?
Why don't you post the numbers, then? Here they are:
Bush: +$4.9T Obama: +$9.3T Trump 1: +$7.8T Biden: +$8.5T Trump 2: +$4.4T
I'm sorry, but this is almost a parody of the enlightened centrism meme.
The Democrats have attempted to pass several anti-gerrymandering bills. One in the Senate in 2024, one in the House in 2021. Both stonewalled by Republicans.
The Republican SCOTUS appointees allowed partisan gerrymandering, the Democratic ones were in the dissent.
California's prop 50 was IN RESPONSE to an unprecedented mid-term gerrymandering effort by Texas at the behest of Trump.
I just picked one example, but I could easily write similar responses that show very stark differences between the parties when it comes to wars, stacking the court, war with Iran, and more.
It's easy to place the blame on political parties or the wealthy but at the end of the day the problems that America faces are the result of a series of choices made by the electorate over decades despite the feedback from each of these decisions as they were made.
At then end of the day the way things are in America is a reflection of what the American people want their country to be.
People like to make the argument that Americans would stand up and sort this problem out, but the country is just so big, and the average American just doesn't have enough money to do something, and people are spread far and wide and that there's just no way for the to come together to decisively end these problems but it's just excuses. People by and large are content with the status quo. This is just what they want.
Precarious state of health care access and incomprehensibly opaque costs? That's a choice.
An ever escalating police state that has reached new peaks of immigration police and pulling random people off the street and a national guard perpetually patrolling cities? That's a choice.
Forever wars with no discernible objective or end point in the Middle East? That's a choice.
consolidation of media and economic control into a smaller and smaller group of people? That's a choice.
All of this is a choice that Americans collectively continue to make. And my prediction is that they'll continue to keep making these (imho) poor choices.
It's not so much choices that Americans collectively make. Almost every major policy decision since 2010 has been unpopular with the American public. The actual elected officials just thumbs up or thumbs down something based which party introduced it, and then if they ignore that they decide on the very poorly organized skim notes an aide might be able to badger them into reading. Many members of our House Of Representatives didn't even read what was in the 2018 fiscal budget bill (P.L. 115-123) or the omnibus bill of 2025 (P.L. 119-21) that destroyed regulatory authority. Mitch McConnell ruined the ability of Congress to actually function by making it a warring states situation instead of organized compromise. Ever since then it's been grab what you can get and get, because you won't get any long term work done.
The American people don't actually want this. They don't vote for any of these policies. They actively vote and protest against them. But there's no true mechanism available to the public for ousting elected or appointed officials outside of scheduled times. Recalls have no enforcement. Impeachments have no enforcement! When you know you've got a protected period to wreak havoc in, you do it without worry. Especially if you're doing that in service of people who have broken the systems so they cannot be pried out of their positions, and who will pay you handsomely for bloodying your hands during that two or six year stint.
The public just has to hope whoever they're voting for isn't lying to them, because if that representative is then there's nothing the public can do to punish them in time.
Voters aren't given meaningful choices. It's just subjective "lesser of two evils" in a race to the bottom (except for elites, who win no matter which fake party is in power).
Democracy is illusory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniparty
I wouldn't say democracy I'd illusory. I'd say it has to be fought for repeatedly to keep it, and we've done a poor job of fighting for it at least in my lifetime.
There's nothing an actively-aiming-to-harm-others-for-their-own-gain person loves more than someone else deciding to stop trying because it's 'rigged.' The assholes are internally motivated to continue to being assholes. That takes continual active resistance.
Health access, for instance, improved as a result of one set of votes. Lifetime maxes are gone. There is improved access to non-employee plans.
It didn't stop inflation of health plan costs or medical treatment in general. One might think that means its worth voting for people pledging to make further large-scale changes to address those things.
And meanwhile, the assholes have been campaigning on the opposite for more than a decade: try to make the access worse again by trying rhetorical tricks to say that the one caused vs failed to fix the other. That'll let some rich people get even richer.
That's a real difference for many millions of people.
Neither party is perfect. Welcome to adulthood. Shitty compromises are generally all you get.
By all means, work on structural things to encourage more parties to exist and flourish.
Just also pay attention to the active battles.
I don't think you can seriously say that there are no meaningful differences between the two major parties. Just compare Biden and Trump 2. You might not like either choice, but their policy platforms are in fact very different, and both are popular among large segments of the population. That's democracy in action.
In my opinion, we don't have a democracy problem, we have an education problem. Too many voters support policies that sound nice on paper but are disastrous when put into practice.
The two parties, including the most recent presidents, have disagreed on specific policy but not on direction. Both partied want more federal powers and authority. Both want to spend more than they make. Both believe in authoritarian type rule with "experts" at the top deciding what is best for all of us.
Wahh republicans isn't a reasonable answer. It was Clinton and his ilk that got the US into this.
Clinton left office with a budget surplus. He deserves some credit for that, though it was also partly due to the end of the Cold War and the Republican majority Congress under Gingrich. Deficit spending increased dramatically under George W. Bush after 9/11 and every subsequent administration has continued this.
Clinton isn't a reasonable answer, he left office 25 years ago.
A lot of these trends go back to Reagan so "25 years ago" isn't too long ago to have shaped those trends.
But Clinton was a bit of a correction—not perfect by any means—to Reagan, who lit a bunch of gasoline on the "don't tax and DO spend" fire. Too bad even Reagan would look like some sort of TDS cuck RINO to the current conservatives...
The whole point of democracy is to be able to correct course by being able to amend leaders and hence amend legislation.
Sure, but it doesn't guarantee it?
So if one guy figures out some rhetorical tricks to convince an entire generation that ACTUALLY tax cuts will INCREASE revenue and HELP the deficit... while meanwhile massively increasing it under his administration... that guy still has responsibility for it decades later. (Throw in the hollywood greed-is-good-everyone-screw-over-your-neighbor-and-do-cocaine enthusiastic adoption of the era for good measure.)
It's the Baby Boomers. They will transition to collecting ssi.
This was the "Locked Box" that Al Gore got mocked for on SNL 26 years ago. So people saw it coming and were trying to fix it then. And it was the Democrats trying to fix, it is not a "both sides" case. There is one party trying to destroy Social Security, and one party trying to fix it. I encourage anyone to not take my word for it, and conduct some basic research of their own.
Anyway, the crisis is that there is less income than distribution. So we collect debt (unlikely, given appetite for US debt after the last 20 months or so) or reduce payments.
Since many social security recipients are wealthy and not at risk of poverty, what will happen is likely some sort of reduction after means testing. It is not ideal, but entirely because fiscal choices of America's collective fault.
What does debt to gdp have to do with the labor share of income?
It doesn't directly. Financial repression does though, its a "solution" to high federal debt and leaves the average person having to eat the cost.
Its a bit like austerity, but instead of taking a share of everyone's wealth they just make all of our stored wealth worse less. They do that by inflating asset prices much faster than wages can keep up, meaning those large corporations at the top get rich while the average person falls further and further behind.
It seems like the economy is kind of doing this on its own? The Fed has been keeping rates higher, despite political pressure, without yet having achieved the inflation target.
The economy is a measure of past financial behavior. I'm not sure how the economy could do this on its own, we're doing this to ourselves. I say "we" collectively there, these are all results of human choices not an amorphous concept of an economy.
Don't quote me on that, but people are saying that despite American companies are getting more money, people are getting even less. Or that's my understanding. Happy to be corrected though
Public debt burden increases interest rates. This benefits holders of government bonds, who are disproportionately wealthy households and financial institutions. It crowds out private investment and inhibits economic growth, which weakens workers' bargaining power. Deficit spending also causes inflation, which disproportionately hurts people on the lower end of the income scale.
The US had a fiscal surplus under Clinton and would have one today if it weren’t for the Bush and Trump tax cuts.
Figure 1: https://www.americanprogress.org/article/why-the-national-de...
To be fair, Clinton pulled off a surplus through clever accounting though it would have been comparatively close either way.
I'm not sure how you could possibly narrow the issue down to two presidents' tax cuts alone. What about all the war spending? Or money printing? Or a partially implemented half step towards socialized health care?
Both parties are responsible for the debt we hold today, they have just argued about what to spend it on along the way.
The solution is clearly to increase Pentagon spending 50%. Besides, the President said we are in the Golden Age, don't worry.
Sounds like the policies that were put in place are doing what they were designed to do, and directing money to where they were intended to.
The work on technology to take the place of policy is proceeding, thought slower than the leadership would prefer.
> The work on technology to take the place of policy is proceeding
You prefer machines to make decisions?
Depends. Can I bribe the machines with an all expenses paid luxury holiday getaway, an RV, private school tuition, and real estate like I can with Supreme Court Justices? Or do I have to pollute the AI's training data somehow and hope for the best. Seems far more efficient to me if the rich just buy politicians the regular way.
Regardless of policy, wouldn't automation inherently lead to agglomeration of capital?
You can implement policies that tax more than just income. So no not regardless of policy but yes where policies don't exist to reshape a system where capital (i.e. investment in automated production) inherently takes more of the wealth than labour it will inherently lead to an agglomeration of capital.
Today, if sanitation workers go on strike, they rapidly end up with a negotiated settlement. If we had self driving garbage trucks that didn't need them, what political leverage would they have? The same too goes for other industries.
If police have advanced surveillance technology and drones, even violent protest becomes very hard.
What pressure is there to cater to people who are powerless dead weight on the economy?
But instead, ever since the brief federal surplus at the end of the 90s, we've done multiple multi-trillion dollar tax cuts for the highest earners. Bush tax cuts + 2x Trump tax cuts (most recently in the BBB). In each case after fudging the projections beforehand to claim it will reduce the deficit somehow, then the deficit grows by a massive amount.
We've been reshaping the system to redistribute trillions to capital owners via government IOUs that will eventually come due. Inevitably, this will be "solved" by cutting benefits to workers while insisting no other solution could possibly exist.
Like, you know, undoing these relatively recent handouts to the ultra rich and restructuring policy to the benefit of workers.
Instead of looking at share you could look at each trend separately. They're both going up, but corporate profits are going up more:
Corporate profits versus labor income https://fred.stlouisfed.org/blog/2018/08/corporate-profits-v...
Why is labor going up? In part due to more hours worked:
Nonfarm Business Sector: Hours Worked for All Workers https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/HOANBS
If you divide labor income by hours worked, you should get hourly compensation:
Nonfarm Business Sector: Real Hourly Compensation for All Workers https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/COMPRNFB
Working-age population is leveling off, though: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LFWA64TTUSQ647S
One would expect that retirees are mostly living off capital rather than labor. Wouldn't an increased elderly population result in a lower labor share?
Or maybe something else. This paper suggests that as workers get older, they switch jobs less and get fewer raises:
"We find that a 60-year-old worker receives half the marginal product relative to when they were 20. Together with recent demographic trends, this can account for 59% of the recent decline in labor’s share of earnings in the United States."
https://www.bankofcanada.ca/2023/04/staff-working-paper-2023...
And no matter how you slice it, this is all working with national averages, which tell us little about anyone's personal situation.
So here's what I don't get: The United States is the world's largest consumer market. From what I can find, personal consumption expenditures (PCE) account for about two-thirds to 70% of total US economic output. We live and die on consumer spending and confidence.
So next we automate the bejeebus out of this economy with AI robots and Elon believes it grows 3x in under five years. Splendid. But if a consumer-driven economy has no payrolls, it eventually has no buyers. It just seems to me that ultimately, billionaires and investors cannot decouple themselves from the masses... but maybe it's a game of get mine before the system collapses?
Today, around 50% of US consumer spending is by the top 10% of wealthiest households. (per Moody's)
The end state of this looks like how humanity looked before the industrial revolution: A single-digit percent of the population has the vast majority of the wealth and virtually all real estate and luxury goods. Between 90% and 95% of the population has just enough to live on, and never enough to build generational wealth or have any class mobility.
I think those in poverty have an awful lot less ways to supplement bought food these days, they are largely legislated out of foraging in any meaningful way. So I think actually a large percentage will starve to death or be in prison.
Food banks. Church pantries. Welfare programs. Meals with family and friends. Eat way less meat. Get hardcore into meal prep. https://traumbooks.itch.io/the-sad-bastard-cookbook. People will find ways to eat as long as there isn't an active warzone.
I'm much more worried about what housing looks like in the future.
There’s only like 400M folks in US. The rest of the world would consume if prices came down even more without labor
THIS, so much this... but let's use an analogy
if a really powerful mafia got installed into your city, a very small violent group of people demanding people to pay to stay safe... how long before you start organizing? how long before they notice and do something about it?
If billionaires have all the money then there's nothing stopping them from buying all the stuff the economy can produce and leaving the rest of the population to barely get by or starve. Certainly, higher income people might currently spend less than their share of total income (at least between 2017 and 2021, see BLS paper, Garner et al., 2024, Gini of 0.3ish vs what I believe is 0.4ish for post-tax income) because poor people need to spend more of their income on things like food or rent, but there's no reason why the share of spendin by the top x% can't increase. In fact, as I understand it, it already has, according to [2] who themselves cite Moody, the top 20% accounted for 59% of spending in Q3 2025, which was a marked increase from the 40% in the BLS paper.
Now, the top 20% certainly aren't billionaires, but we also have to remember that the Luddites also benefited significantly from the automation of spinning before they themselves were replaced by automated weaving and subsequently suppressed by the state. There is no reason to think our current crop of labour aristocracy immune from the whims of capital when the time comes.
[BLS 2024]: https://www.bls.gov/cex/a-distributional-approach-to-us-pers... [2]: https://www.empower.com/the-currency/money/life/k-shaped-eco...
When they have enough robots, they won't need the rest of the system. I think Musk must have meant something like that when he said money won't matter.
Well, Elon thinks we'll all get a Universal High Income. Holding aside the irony of him thinking the future is socialism, that money has to come from somewhere. If all companies in the future depend on a handful of AI and Robotics companies, I guess that the money has to come from Elon. Seeing as the layoffs have started, what is he waiting for?
as Elon says, soon money will be worthless. what will matter is how much compute and how many robots you have
so yeah, billionaires without compute or robots will join the permanent underclass
Machine intelligence could drive as much transfer from labor to capital in the next decade as the previous wage-to-financial economy produced in forty years.
This will push wealth concentration in leading OECD economies beyond the inequality seen in Brazil and Mexico.
https://commanding-heights.com/#fig-23
More AI will surely solve this problem.
We lost WW3
To whom?
BRIICS
A disaster. Economy is a flow of capital, it cycles up. USA needs the general public to have money for necessities as well as a little more for saving and then extras.
Top earnings come from the support of 1000s of participants with lesser earnings. This is an unhealthy economic trend. It's more than a stagnation risk.
Issues like these are created in a short term but take comparatively longer to correct.
Lower wages, job losses or eliminations, structural unemployment and forced entrepreneurship were all concepts that emerged during the Great Depression [1].
The world is a very different place than it was in the early 20th century, but at the same time, "those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it".
I say this not to be a "doomer". I say this because those forces I mentioned above were very real and we have to keep our eyes wide open.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression
>A disaster.
Pay peanuts, expect a circus.
At this point, we'll either have universal UBI -=or=- ongoing war.
Unfortunately, the latter is more profitable, so... the future is by design, probably.
UBI will cause instant inflation and everyone will be in the same place they started from.
Try a worked example.
Alice has nothing, Elon has $1T and we give them each a UBI of, lets say, $50k.
Your "instant inflation" means now their effective buying power is diluted by some fixed factor X. You claim this somehow leaves both Alice and Elon in "the same place they started from"
100000005 X == 100000000 but 5 X = 0, if you've done high school math you can probably see that there is no value of X for which this works.
No because you tax it back. Or only give it out if it wouldn't be taxed back (aka negative income tax)
Not if we control the prices, the idea of UBI isn't to give money but to give resources, if everyone gets a house, clothes, food and education for free that's UBI as well. Even if it didn't involve a direct benefit transfer.
And that's the only solution to UBI, when resources are abundant enough that UBI isn't needed or with UBI we increase resource enough that there isn't inflation risks.
All UBI experiments till now have proven it's not bad for the people, if we just manage the economy part it will all work out somehow.
Controlled wages and fixed prices--that's sounding suspiciously like a command economy there. Well played, comrade.
(And I say controlled wages because the natural solution people bring up to paying for UBI is to carpet-tax the assets of the wealthy).
This is inevitable, comrade.
Or, 90% of us (that aren't zoo-worthy) will need to be exterminated. 2/3rds+ of us American't were "paycheck to paycheck" – a statistic which pre-dates Covid!
Eternal War is Peace™
You will own nothing and you better like it
"We pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us"
It's amazing how even though this is happening, so many of the people on this list (and those who aspire to be there) have gone to straight up war with the public. Also curious how many are militant Zionists:
https://www.forbes.com/real-time-billionaires/
It’s ok, soon the greedy will take home their smallest share of heads
as someone said, if your workers are overweight, you are doing Capitalism wrong
We do still have a real obesity problem in the USA and it affects the poorest in the country quite badly.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3198075/
In fact according to government data:
>U.S. counties with poverty rates exceeding 35% have age-adjusted obesity rates substantially higher than wealthy counties.
Being fat is actually a disease of the poor.
Yeah that point no longer really applies because bad food is cheap. And also fast, people that work a lot don't have the time to spend an hour cooking.
Counterpoint: Mark Benioff is worth about $9 B and has struggled with obesity for most of his career.
Mark Benioff is also struggling with fake AI-generated videos- https://x.com/Benioff/status/2116658212640604297?a=SNDwXOvrG...
There's always exceptions to any rule.
Surely there is a ycombinator startup around the corner that will fix this problem.
Marxism-as-a-service?
Sadly the people behind ycombinator think helping this administration crush woke youth, and spying on us with flock cameras, is more important that preventing fascism or corporotocracy.
Capital != money. Confirmed that author does not have finance, economics or business background.
Yeah, my thought exactly. Capital is the firm. Labor is the workforce. Wages are the return to labor and profit is the return to capital. Labor and capital are in eternal struggle for their piece of the pie.
Capital historically meant 'that part of production set aside for future production'. Machines, land improvements, infrastructure, intellectual property. Now it tends to include all assets used to generate wealth - including things like land which were once in their own category.
Wages are just money and may or may not become capital according to the discretion and opportunities of the employee.
The balance is clearly out of whack in favor of capital.
Anyone care to explain the downvotes? I am simply pointing out a glaring misuse of a word in the title, which made me curious about the author's background.
Although I'm non-downvoter, I doubt anyone thinks you're wrong. It's probably just that they feel that the comment is distracting or of uncertain relevance or something like that.